Threat reduction not applying to Imbues

[Tanky]

Something isn't working right with imbue dice and threat reduction. We have ranged characters with 20+ imbue dice routinely pulling aggro from Death's Teeth and Wrath of Vecna (Skeletons in the Closet) on LH/R1/R4. These characters have Cover of Darkness tier 3 for 30% reduction, which is supposed to apply to all damage sources. It doesn't matter what the ranged build is: Alchemist Inquisitive, Arti heavy repeater, throwing dagger, shuriken or bow. They're all pulling aggro off the tank. These are experienced players that have raided for years (and completed R10 raids), so both the DPS and the tanks are optimally geared, built and played.

[Firebreed]

Quality thread. Wouldn't surprise me if threat mechanics don't affect imbues currently.

[Caarb]

Something isn't working right with imbue dice and threat reduction. We have ranged characters with 20+ imbue dice routinely pulling aggro from Death's Teeth and Wrath of Vecna (Skeletons in the Closet) on LH/R1/R4. These characters have Cover of Darkness tier 3 for 30% reduction, which is supposed to apply to all damage sources. It doesn't matter what the ranged build is: Alchemist Inquisitive, Arti heavy repeater, throwing dagger, shuriken or bow. They're all pulling aggro off the tank. These are experienced players that have raided for years (and completed R10 raids), so both the DPS and the tanks are optimally geared, built and played.

Threat reduction only affects the first number - high sneak attack toons have been dealing with this issue for ages.

[ivorycoaster]

All source diversion such as dark diversion, fatesinger, and shadow dancer seem to work. Would be a lot cooler if it all did though

[Tilomere]

Varying threat reduction sources apply to varying imbues. GL with testing!

so both the DPS and the tanks are optimally geared, built and played.

If this were true, the DPS would be geared, built, and played within the threat per second generated by the tank, and they wouldn't be pulling aggro.

[Tanky]

Threat reduction only affects the first number - high sneak attack toons have been dealing with this issue for ages.

Shadowdancer Cover of Darkness isn't worded that way. Neither is Fatesinger Rhythm to Reign. Both of those explicitly state "all sources".

I've played a TWF pure rogue for years with max SA dice and haven't had aggro problems.

[Oliphant]

I've always noticed I can still draw threat from others even when I have more than 100% threat reductions, always assumed it was the 'imbues'. Could hit enemies with 200k direct damage and be ok but got in real trouble when using too early the Shiradi epic moment that pumps out elemental dice. Personally I'd like it if imbues were not drawing aggro differently than main attack as I'd like there to be some possibility of people mixing sneak attack and imbue hybrid styles successfully.

[Bjond]

ranged characters with 20+ imbue dice routinely pulling aggro from Death's Teeth

Ranged Threat is buggy. My ranged has ~Threat-50% base and can get up to Threat-150% and has been pulling agro since about forever. I basically play it as a melee when I can so I can mash diplomacy.

Your example is pretty much worst-case for a tank, too. Even if the tank has incite-style bonuses, DT is kited. That means it's just Intim v Damage, which is almost never enough. It's ultra hard to get Intim high enough to hold on it's own versus top-tier DPS.

Threat reduction only affects the first number - high sneak attack toons have been dealing with this issue for ages.

This I didn't know. Has this been test/verified or is it just a theory about why agro flips. My own feeling is that it's more about burst than partial reductions.

The reason I favor burst is that when I was running a very high sustained (including lots of sneak) ranged without any burst, I pretty much never flipped anything. As soon as I swapped sustained for burst (with incidentally more -threat), my ranged started pulling agro regularly.

My guess is there's a bit of a soft area on threat and that it won't flip just because you're on top, but only when you're on top by a lot; ie. it takes a spike to yank it away.

I've always noticed I can still draw threat from others even when I have more than 100% threat reductions

My ranged has given up on -threat over 100%. It seems to make things MUCH worse. There's definitely something buggy about high -threat.

[Caarb]

Shadowdancer Cover of Darkness isn't worded that way. Neither is Fatesinger Rhythm to Reign. Both of those explicitly state "all sources".

I've played a TWF pure rogue for years with max SA dice and haven't had aggro problems.

All sources means magic/ranged/melee all 3 have separate threat channels. As others have pointed out even with 100% threat reductions it’s always been possible to pull aggro as sneak attacks/rda stacks/shiradi procs etc are all not reduced

[Oliphant]

The reason I favor burst is that when I was running a very high sustained (including lots of sneak) ranged without any burst, I pretty much never flipped anything. As soon as I swapped sustained for burst (with incidentally more -threat), my ranged started pulling agro regularly.

Seemed like I could nuke stuff for 150k while waterfalling damage by the thousands and it would be ok but Inexorable Advance which pumps out procs (like imbues) and I'd grab aggro. IA is both bursty, ultra high and proccy so hard to say based on it.

My ranged has given up on -threat over 100%. It seems to make things MUCH worse. There's definitely something buggy about high -threat.

Yeah I had a some hypotheses about issues with -threat beyond 100%, wondered if it was a subconsciously-feeling-safe attitude getting me in trouble. Did seem weird though.

[Bjond]

but Inexorable Advance which pumps out procs

IA is just silly amounts of damage. No need to hypothesize a threat bug to explain IA flips. My ranged always snuggles up to the target for IA so I can mash diplomacy. IA flipping is usually disastrous for raid DPS unless you have zero melee. They'll either die (KT) or chase. Either way, you're removing their DPS and their debuffs.

[Oliphant]

IA is just silly amounts of damage. No need to hypothesize a threat bug to explain IA flips. My ranged always snuggles up to the target for IA so I can mash diplomacy. IA flipping is usually disastrous for raid DPS unless you have zero melee. They'll either die (KT) or chase. Either way, you're removing their DPS and their debuffs.

If -100% threat was working and proccs were affected then IA damage would not matter, it could be a billion dps.

[Tanky]

Even if the tank has incite-style bonuses, DT is kited.

Retaining aggro by the tank is an issue for non-kited bosses, like Wrath of Vecna.

Threat management in DDO could use more depth than black or white "who has aggro". There's no warning that a character is close to pulling aggro from the current mob target.

[Bjond]

Threat management in DDO could use more

Heh. ALL MMOs could always use "more" for threat management. DDO is actually pretty good. A tank that invests (in play style, gear, and/or build) can hold agro. One that doesn't invest has issues. So, there's a decent balance.

IMHO, DDO's are minor quibbles. Yeah, I'd like them "fixed", but there's really not much I'd consider worth changing:

• Negative threat needs to be on a diminishing scale similar to PRR; ie. pile it on but you can't ever reach a perfect 100%.
• Threat modifiers (positive & negative) need a global mute button; ie. zeroes all modifiers.

The mute button is purely a UI convenience for characters that might play different roles at different times. It's needed to save time on tree rebuilds, gear swapping, and inventory space for the gear swaps.

[Tanky]

Heh. ALL MMOs could always use "more" for threat management. DDO is actually pretty good. A tank that invests (in play style, gear, and/or build) can hold agro.

No, tanks can't hold aggro -- thus the point of this thread. The tanks (and DPS) I play with are built and geared optimally by people who know DDO mechanics inside and out, with 156 reaper points, uber completionist, etc.

DDO is not "pretty good" for threat management compared to games with a threat meter, or other indicators you're about to pull aggro.

[Tilomere]

The tanks (and DPS) I play with are built and geared optimally by people who know DDO mechanics inside and out, with 156 reaper points, uber completionist, etc.

Well in that case, why don't you drop down the threat per second rotation of an optimal inquisitor vs. tank side by side so the rest of us can see what is wrong.

[Lominal]

This I didn't know. Has this been test/verified or is it just a theory about why agro flips. My own feeling is that it's more about burst than partial reductions.

Steel said something to this effect on the official discord, but wasnt 100% sure that it was the case. however, based off anecdotal and how everyone else sees it, this appears to line up with what happens in game, although I do think sneak takes threat into account. (so its anything after first 2 numbers)

To add to the discussion, it takes me <5s to pull LoB on r4 off a maxed life tank that should bea ble to hold aggro, without IA up (only assasin imbue) with -100% spell and ranged threat