U50 Preview 2: New Universal Enhancement Tree: Horizon Walker

[droid327]

The more I play around with different configurations at endgame, the more I come back to the same inescapable conclusion...

The lack of mobility and/or stationary defense is just too damning, because of how wholly dependent you are on AF stacks. It puts a hard cap on the tree, at least for any application where you cant expect someone else to be taking aggro for you. It does great single-target damage, but in any situation where you cant manage aggro enough to almost never get hit, you cant stay still long enough to make the tree work.

Its the glassiest glass cannon I've played in a while.

I messed around with a few more defensive setups: 18 Pal/2 Rgr, 18 Wiz/2 Rgr. Paladin is usually a pretty reliable tank. But even in EE, it got swarmed and killed pretty fast in Grimm. R1 was just a spawncamp in the first room. The wiz build fared much better: I could stand there and facetank on EE on the strength of DA. But on R1, that strategy failed and, again, quickly nuked. Its pretty much limited entirely by your heal rate, which makes it pretty unsuitable for Reaper even just one skull.

Against packs, it just kills too slowly compared to how fast they kill you. You feel the lack of helpful targeting mechanics when you're trying to pick the champs out of a swarm. And the minute you try to move and avoid the swarm, you break your DPS stacks and pretty much doom yourself to desperate kiting with horrible damage. Any quest with "huge swarm of mobs" design (Grimm, Slavers, etc.) is going to be effectively unplayable to a HW without a dedicated tank.

I think the only really endgame-compatible way to play it is to dump DEX entirely, which seems to be a design flaw in the tree...go INT based, 18 Wiz with Harper, and rely on your AOE CC (disco ball, mass hold, etc.) to manage aggro while you pick off mobs one by one. That's really the only way I can see to be able to mitigate incoming DPS at endgame difficulties enough that your Death Aura/NEB can allow you to facetank. Or maybe a WIS version with FvS, using Cometfall/GComm/Sburst along with active self-heals.

edit: You know what I think the tree really needs? The one piece of Inqui that doesnt really do it any good: Arresting Assault. An AOE daze would let a stationary HW archer CC a swarm if they get overwhelmed and buy enough time to hopefully thin it down without needing to retreat, since its entirely single target. It'd have to have better uptime than 10 sec/min though.

[Torkzed]

Regarding the capstone:

Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

This particular ability was suggested by multiple players in preview 1. Its power is definitely strongest on rangers but not nothing on other builds, especially those with access to Favored enemies.

Is there any Ranger build you would consider taking this tree's capstone on?
Is there any build at all you would take this tree's capstone on? Even if it was the old version?

I did not read the entire thread, but changing the core 6 completely ruined the tree and sucked every bit of interest out of it for me.

As a DPS archer right now, you pretty much have to go 20 ranger for the DWS core 6. Nothing else is comparable.

This is very depressing, because I like the option to build trapping into a ranged build (the DPS is going to be lower than melee...that is a given...so I like more utility).

I was looking forward to being able to go 18/2 ranger/rogue, or 18/1/x ranger/rogue/something. I could justify it because the dps hit going from DWS core 6 to Horizon Walker core 6 was going to be not too horrible. A reasonable trade for the utility gained.

Now...the DPS hit will be enormous...and I will stay a pure 20 ranger on my ranged character (or go back to thrower, where I can build in trapping). Major bummer...no interest in the tree at all for me now (maybe a few points to get the dex trance). Why build an entire tree that no one will use beyond a few points?


VERY, VERY DISAPPOINTED

EDIT: So I have read the whole thread now. I am at little calmer seeing carpone's statement that the DPS will be better. My fear is that his calculations only apply in the perfect boss killing situation where the archer is standing still, the target is more or less stationary and the aggro is controlled. It is a nice situation to be in, but it is a small-ish part of the game. I still think in most normal run of play, the DWS core 6 offered better sustainable dps in a dynamic play situation even before the change, and it will be a huge difference with the recent change. But since it is difficult to quantify or test this, I guess I will just have to try it out and see. Still disappointed in the change, but I will give it a try.

[Dreppo]

Suggestion: All enemies hit with Scattershot become Marked.

[Carpone]

Can get up to 7 FE's without taking a single ranger level.
1: Evil Outsider (HW tree)
2: Marked Target (HW Capstone)
3: Racial Shifter/Gnome
4: Harper T3
5: VKF T1
6: Falconry T1
7: T2 Twist from Primal Avatar.

Shifter and Harper are terrible choices for bow. Welf is a way better race choice, and it's a DPS loss going into Harper. Rest of that is fine.

[zooble]

Heya, just so I'm reading this right, misty step cooldown went from 3 seconds to 12 seconds?

but it was the most fun part of the first preview.

It did. It also got a significant buff applied on use.

The most unique and Horizon Walker defining mechanic removed. Defensive buffs do not match a 9 second cooldown increase. I get people were asking for dps buffs but why did it have to come out of here?

[Carpone]

Why no Doubleshot/Doublestrike action boost? Provide it at Tier 2 (replacing Skilled Navigator), which gives melee something useful to take on their way to the DEX trance.

Changing up an Assassin build from INT (using Harper) to DEX, it's painful how much wasted AP (comparatively) is required to get No Step Missing.

[Enderoc]

As I am reading this a couple things came to light...
We have vets that do not know how to set and cycle targets on ranged builds (they must AOE everything)
And there is an assumption standing still does anything other than grant archers focus...
I am looking at all the extra damage, the lowering AC, the fort bypass, the making of your target as favored enemy, the loaded force damage scaling with ranged power, the fact you have a chance to paralyze (with skill plus insightful on an item almost guaranteed especially with save penalties cursed upon your mark) and all I am picturing is some dude pointing and clicking going....this sucks I want to play paladin or wizard
Thats fine...
Just means those who know how to play a bowman ranger will just run circles around you lol
*Dusts off paralyzing blinding thunderforged bow ( you all made one of those right? If not the barb and rogue both hate you)
Hold my Beer...I wont reincarnate on my main until this tree pops on live
*looks up which items outside weapons can house armor piercing while wondering why these guys didnt dip into tempest going all or nothing with bow...I mean cracked armor is cracked armor might as well swing at your mark sometimes. Kind of like those casters who want to be good at just one spell....whateva
Though a High Wire Walker with Acrobat might be a better way to handle both single targets and mobs alike. I mean if tumble is key in horizon nothing is stopping you from tumbling with a bow in hand through enemies from Acrobat core...being a ball instead of a kite...

[SWCarter]

Given their importance, it would be really helpful if there could be some standardization to the investment required for a trance. Today, they're all over the place. Hard decisions about where to spend AP are great, but there should also be a sense of fairness across each trance, the classes that are going to use them, and the important attributes for those classes.

For example, an Int-based character can get a trance for 6 AP that essentially has unlimited uses, but a Dex-based character now has to spend at least 11 AP with a limited number of charges (rechargeable over time). A Wis-based character has to spend 21 AP at a minimum.

At least those trances are available in Universal trees and characters don't have to multi-class. While Paladins, Favored Souls, and Clerics can go pure and pick up a Charisma trance in their main melee trees that essentially has unlimited uses, a Swash Bard has to multi-class to pick up a Charisma trance, and it's going to require an AP investment outside of their main class trees.

Is all of this trance inconsistency and different levels of "fairness" across classes by design?

[FixBows]

Inescapable truth... Hitting more for less is better than hitting one for more. The design of this tree is only for parties where you do not have a caster nuking mobs and you have the time to mark a target, do whatever tumbling you need to do, then go through your list of pre-shot buffs (like adrenaline or Hunt's End) then, finally, be able to shoot something.

I said this in the past, I will say it again... Single target dps is a waste of time in this game because it doesn't fit how the rest of the players are playing. It is too slow, too cumbersome, not solo or small group friendly, and simply put... not fun.

[Carpone]

Single target dps is a waste of time in this game

How fast red/purple mobs die is the only barometer that matters in this game. Trash dies way too fast from DC casters for DPS to matter.

[Yamani]

Shifter and Harper are terrible choices for bow. Welf is a way better race choice, and it's a DPS loss going into Harper. Rest of that is fine.

Think you missed the point of my post... It was mostly about accessible FE's for non ranger builds, not what I'm playing.

[Marshal_Lannes]

How fast red/purple mobs die is the only barometer that matters in this game. Trash dies way too fast from DC casters for DPS to matter.

That's going to depend on what level you're playing on and whether you have a DC caster or not. This is an interesting discussion and it seems HW will have a fairly important (and useful) role in high-level reaper. Will it be fun while zerging through R1 heroics? Probably not as much. But we have plenty of classes that are extremely fun in heroics then fall off sharply once you're past R4 where most of their abilities don't work anymore. If HW is less fun in heroics and more fun in high-level reaper then that seems to be a useful addition to character choice.

[Sylveny]

The most unique and Horizon Walker defining mechanic removed. Defensive buffs do not match a 9 second cooldown increase. I get people were asking for dps buffs but why did it have to come out of here?

This my thoughts exactly.

What did they think? 3 seconds it's too good just because others abundant steps are more? it's not like there is a DPS benefit to it, it will actually lower you dps if you are stopping everytime to teleport, the only real benefit is the fun mechanic, will people call for nerfs because HWs are teleporting everywhere and nothing else?

[Carpone]

Think you missed the point of my post... It was mostly about accessible FE's for non ranger builds, not what I'm playing.

Even non-Rangers aren't going to go Shifter or 12 AP into Harper.

[Stravix]

Even non-Rangers aren't going to go Shifter or 12 AP into Harper.

And he is saying what was possible, not what was best.

[elvesunited]

Even non-Rangers aren't going to go Shifter or 12 AP into Harper.

Kind of curious. What's wrong with a shifter archer? 11 AP and you can be in pretty much constant wildhunt rage and be at +8 Dex, +5 Wis, -2 Str with either +6 dodge or +3 Con and still be able to cast spells.
just 2 more AP get you another favored enemy.

[Assassination]

Why no Doubleshot/Doublestrike action boost? Provide it at Tier 2 (replacing Skilled Navigator), which gives melee something useful to take on their way to the DEX trance.

Changing up an Assassin build from INT (using Harper) to DEX, it's painful how much wasted AP (comparatively) is required to get No Step Missing.

Please move the Dex Trance to Tier 2, or better yet Tier 1. Assassins and Dex rangers would love this trance, at tier 3 we will stick with harper kta's.

[Abilbo]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

I didnt have time to read all 6 pages to see if someone had mentioned this yet, but I played a ranger on lamania at R10 with some friends, trying out the new Dex trance. It is supposed to give you a chance to replenish charges when you vorpal. The entire time we were playing, either R10 or EE just trying stuff out, I NEVER got a charge back. Not sure what the %chance is, but its crazy low, and doesn't seem to work. Just wondering if it could be changed to be like every other trance, which is 2 min cooldown at top end, usable when ever you want.

[Carpone]

Kind of curious. What's wrong with a shifter archer?

Wrong question. What's right with Shifter archer? Nothing. It's Wood Elf or bust.

And he is saying what was possible, not what was best.

Strawmanning bad builds is a waste of everyone's time.

[Dendrix]

Regarding the capstone:

Honestly? Almost no builds take capstones in Universal Trees. Any of them. The numbers are very low overall.

I have to say I find that astonishing. If I am playing someone using the Inquisition tree I always take the capstone 100% of the time every single time. Of course since I am mostly doing racials I reincarnate straight afterwards.