Level Gating and the Tier 5s

[Seph1roth5]

Well, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people don't like the idea of level gating epic destinies. I'd rather they not be there but I also am ok with it for the most part.

The one big gripe I have is that your tier 5 abilities are locked to level 30.

My static group doesn't spend much time at level 30 because we're going through a bunch of TRs (racial and epic). But, this new ED system also encourages people to etr to get more epic past lives to get more destiny points, so I think that many people don't want to spend a lot of time at 30 other than those parked there for raiding/reapering.

You guys (devs) obviously put a lot of work into these trees and I assume you want the t5 abilities to be fun/strong, but that doesn't help much if we don't get the chance to use them.

The new ED system seems to want to mimic heroic enhancements. But look at heroic enhancements, do you get your strongest stuff when you cap at 20? No, you usually get it at level 12 when you get your tier 5s. The lv 18 and 20 cores can be really good too but if you had to pick which one you got at 12....

That means in heroics you have ~7 levels to play around/have fun with your character's abilities. Even if you take into account level 9 spells, you get 3 levels (assuming no multiclassing) to feel very powerful. Gear bumps up your damage/dcs/whatever, but you need abilities to take advantage of them.

That's why I'm really pushing (you know what I'm talking about Lynnabel) for the tier 5 level gate to be lowered to 29. 28 would be even better but I'm not expecting that honestly.

I know that the level cap is increasing eventually, but it feels like ED are being balanced against the new levels, when they shouldn't be. When epic destinies came out, you didn't reshuffle around heroic enhancements to get their main power at 20, that's what epic destinies were FOR. The level 20+ stuff.

When the new levels, let's call them legendary for ease, come out, they should have new, stronger stuff to allow us to fight harder enemies. Our EXISTING stuff shouldn't become backloaded so that people don't feel shafted when they take 30 and can start building to 31.

Actually, going back a bit, I feel 28 would be the perfect spot for tier 5s lol. It's within sight of the level 29 gear and probably the loooongest level because when you get your legendary gear it makes everything faster. But again, I think going from 30 to 29 would be a huge change.

For the most part I liked the look of everything in the ED. I see a lot of nitpicking about changes, but the fact is the way it is now my 3 friends and I simply won't be able to play around with the most powerful epic abilities, and that sucks.

[Mindos]

Just wait, maybe tier 4 and 5 will be level 32 and 35 when the cap increases.

[mikarddo]

In heroics the xp for levels 1-11 is less than 1/3 of the heroics xp. So, T5 heroic abilities are used roughly 2/3 of the heroic levels AND into the epic levels.

Epic levels 21-24 xp is roughly 40% of the total epic xp.

Tier 3 should be level 21
Tier 4 level 23
Tier 5 level 25

T5 epic at level 25 is still worse than T5 heroic at level 12, but atleast we are getting close.

[Pandjed]

Well, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people don't like the idea of level gating epic destinies. I'd rather they not be there but I also am ok with it for the most part.

I think it makes the progression more organic overall.

The one big gripe I have is that your tier 5 abilities are locked to level 30. [...]

I can absolutely see your point of view. Yet I also think, that providing something at level cap that actually makes the level cap feel different yet again, enticing players to play endgame for a while before reincarnation or for those, who likes to have some alts, is also a valid point, and seeing how most T5's are really good-looking so far, I'd rather have them balance it against cap, instead of somewhere mid-epics.

Still, I can totally see the disappointment when thinking about how little you'll use it (if at all) if you're in the reincarnation hamster wheel.

[SoulDustar]

In heroics the xp for levels 1-11 is less than 1/3 of the heroics xp. So, T5 heroic abilities are used roughly 2/3 of the heroic levels AND into the epic levels.

Epic levels 21-24 xp is roughly 40% of the total epic xp.

Tier 3 should be level 21
Tier 4 level 23
Tier 5 level 25

T5 epic at level 25 is still worse than T5 heroic at level 12, but atleast we are getting close.

Perhaps you should consider that level cap will be raised to level 40 in the future

[droid327]

Yeah agree, the whole system is far too backloaded considering 20-30 is still nominally going to be an ETR cycle.

T5s should unlock at 26, I think that's the best corollary to heroic T5s at 12. Plus it makes it nice and simple: T1/2 at 20, T3 at 22, T4 at 24, T5 at 26. Likewise, the cores should all fully unlock at 30, just like Heroic capstones unlock at 20.

L26-30 is still going to have progression from the feat unlocks, from ML28/29 gear, from the last core, etc. Plus the Destiny features that enhance a L28 Destiny feat wont be full power till you get the feat. There's enough there that you dont need to completely backload the ED system itself.

My paladin alt is L29 on Live so I got a chance to try the EDs without T5s...its leaves you wanting for a LOT. The T1-4 skills are a lot more generic, its very toploaded, so it just feels bleh. And that's going to be the ENTIRE experience for a lot of players in Epic because they're going to TR soon as they hit 30. Its just spamming builder, builder, spender. The builders and spenders are nice strong attacks - at least in DC, which is what I mostly ended up in - but those unlock at 20, and there's really nothing else between that and 30. And it makes for very spammy gameplay because the builder/spenders pretty much duplicate a lot of Heroic skills in your rotation, like Sniper Shot, Avenging Cleave and Smite, Shoot First, etc.

[Seph1roth5]

I think it makes the progression more organic overall.



I can absolutely see your point of view. Yet I also think, that providing something at level cap that actually makes the level cap feel different yet again, enticing players to play endgame for a while before reincarnation or for those, who likes to have some alts, is also a valid point, and seeing how most T5's are really good-looking so far, I'd rather have them balance it against cap, instead of somewhere mid-epics.

Still, I can totally see the disappointment when thinking about how little you'll use it (if at all) if you're in the reincarnation hamster wheel.

Maybe they should've upgraded the old legendary raid gear instead of lowering it's ML to 27-28. No one liked that old stuff because it was **** compared to sharn/RL. That would give people actual lv 30 gear going forward.

And I'm assuming that when the level cap goes up there'll be other stuff for lv 30+. I think it'd be better if it worked more like heroics, maybe get your last core at 30 (although it seems like the last few cores are going to go into the 30s) and it'll be like the lv 20 cores in heroics. A good buff/maybe active, but not the point where your class really comes into it's own.

[Mithrielwielder]

It is all about level cap increases, the same thing which ruined LOTRO. In LOTRO, everything is discarded after each level cap increase: content (instances, raids and quests), gear, accomplishments, everything. The grind became unbearable. Everything wiped out every 18 months. It became pointless. It had seemed that DDO found a way to keep all content relevant, to make characters fun to play even if they weren't at level cap, and to limit level cap increases. The holy grail of MMOs. But now it seems we are to have the LOTROization of DDO. Very sad.

[songswrath]

It is all about level cap increases, the same thing which ruined LOTRO. In LOTRO, everything is discarded after each level cap increase: content (instances, raids and quests), gear, accomplishments, everything. The grind became unbearable. Everything wiped out every 18 months. It became pointless. It had seemed that DDO found a way to keep all content relevant, to make characters fun to play even if they weren't at level cap, and to limit level cap increases. The holy grail of MMOs. But now it seems we are to have the LOTROization of DDO. Very sad.

100% this whole update needs rethought

[tarrith_dourden]

I totally agree with the tier 5 being gated at lvl 28, you already get a lot of nice gear to give you that power boot at 29 and lvl 30 is where it all comes together.
The changes making the ED's reliant on Epic past lives, even though it makes sense will introduce a lot more grind as I have concentrated on finishing my racials and not my epic past lives on my main. I haven't even touched them on my alt.
I am NOT looking forward to LVL cap increasing, I would prefer to start working on my alts, and I DO mean START working. If the Lvl cap increased it would just mean my alts get put on the Lvl 30 holding pattern once again.

Oh and moving Balanced attacks from Tier 3 from a Tier 5 that is 3 points deep that you can only unlock at lvl 30?
Fail.

Tarrith

[mikarddo]

Perhaps you should consider that level cap will be raised to level 40 in the future

If that happens more stuff will have to be added. The current stuff is for levels 20-30. Thus my point stands.

[Cernunan]

If that happens more stuff will have to be added. The current stuff is for levels 20-30. Thus my point stands.

Right, they are taking all the things that made the 20-30 levels actually fun, and gating them behind level 30 so they have less actual work to do on the 30+ levels

[redoubt]

Just wait, maybe tier 4 and 5 will be level 32 and 35 when the cap increases.

Is that when them make us pay for EDs again?

[Lencrennis]

Is that when them make us pay for EDs again?

...You're going to pay them?

[Oxarhamar]

It is all about level cap increases, the same thing which ruined LOTRO. In LOTRO, everything is discarded after each level cap increase: content (instances, raids and quests), gear, accomplishments, everything. The grind became unbearable. Everything wiped out every 18 months. It became pointless. It had seemed that DDO found a way to keep all content relevant, to make characters fun to play even if they weren't at level cap, and to limit level cap increases. The holy grail of MMOs. But now it seems we are to have the LOTROization of DDO. Very sad.

So that is what they meant by “lessons learned from Lotro”

[redoubt]

...You're going to pay them?

Nope...

This and everything they have done since they first started talking about revamping the EDs and raising the level cap sounds like one thing to me:

Making the power level at 40 what we have at 30 now (or a year ago). It has been a constant string of nerfs just so they can add it back in at higher levels.

[Karthunk]

Right, they are taking all the things that made the 20-30 levels actually fun, and gating them behind level 30 so they have less actual work to do on the 30+ levels

You mean all the things that let you blow through the content will little effort to reach lvl 30 for a fast TR. Let's be honest here.

[Cernunan]

You mean all the things that let you blow through the content will little effort to reach lvl 30 for a fast TR. Let's be honest here.

All the things that made the endless boring grind to 30 actually fun to play? I will still be able to hit 30 in 14 hours, as I always do on speed lives, despite this blatant money grab.

If I still want to play

[Stravix]

All the things that made the endless boring grind to 30 actually fun to play? I will still be able to hit 30 in 14 hours, as I always do on speed lives, despite this blatant money grab.

If I still want to play

Look, no one is forcing you to play if you don't like the game.

Constant speed TRing can't really be that fun, is it?

[Cernunan]

Look, no one is forcing you to play if you don't like the game.

Constant speed TRing can't really be that fun, is it?

Well thank you for trying to get me to stop supporting the game..

I am sure that you and the other 3 people defending this blatant money grab will have fun after everyone else quits