Steelstar: Is Rapid Shot Not Working?

[anticlimax]

Wow, I didn't know that. I've heard dagger throwers remark they feel like their attacks are slower. Might've affected them too, then.

Indeed, that's why I think ignoring it is a really bad idea.

[Steelstar]

We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.

[Bacon_Burger]

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed,

Well Mr Steelstar developer sir;....

I want to thank you for that post.

I won a bet (coffee and bragging rights) that the changes to bows was in fact WAI @ U49. and that it just wasn't listed that way.

*Disclaimer, it doesn't mean I'm totally onboard w/ all the changes. I "get it" after a lot of clarification in many threads from you developers. Like I said we (players) have to change how we approach ranged combat and adapt our builds as best we can.*

I DO have 1 question, in all this mess you had to go through for these changes, Did you people perform all that without a net?

[anticlimax]

We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.

Fair enough, can't say I like it but at least you've clarified things.

[R1ncewind]

We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.

Now that we have your attention, can you take a look at Hunters end issues?, sometimes when you use another skill too fast after hunters end it doesn't activate, main example or culprit is the combo "hunters end + Sniper Shot) if I do it too fast sometimes i just hit the sniper shot, this has happened way too many times, and its affect dps more than the AS we were discussing here.

[WaxLyrical]

We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.

Just as Tilo was pulling the wool over our eyes with small calcs and made up explanations, up Steelstar pops like a genie to sort of dispel these myths - Not 87 apm after all. What is the point of asking players to test and leave feedback against notes which are incorrect? U49 was billed as the bow pass, that may have been true for end game, but I don't think you achieved your stated objective for improving heroics. Never mind, as long as you are comfortable with that we will just have to make appropriate adjustments to the games we play and pay.

[R1ncewind]

Just as Tilo was pulling the wool over our eyes with small calcs and made up explanations, up Steelstar pops like a genie to sort of dispel these myths - Not 87 apm after all. What is the point of asking players to test and leave feedback against notes which are incorrect? U49 was billed as the bow pass, that may have been true for end game, but I don't think you achieved your stated objective for improving heroics. Never mind, as long as you are comfortable with that we will just have to make appropriate adjustments to the games we play and pay.

I actually think heroic is soo much better now with bows than before at least for rangers, End game? eh... yes and no. Yes because you provide good dps in general and the boss burst is decent, but not as big as it was.

[Oxarhamar]

Never work for free ...

Not everything in life is transactional some things are done out of love.

[Chilianna]

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.

That's extremely disappointing.
I've been asking around in-game to players playing bow and:
Playing bow feels like being a peasant wannabe ranger during a coup against their evil overlords.

Seems like the update was all for nothing if no one's gonna play it. Increasing damage is all and well but naught if you can't get the attack speed right.

[Mindos]

GoalsBuff bow builds in Epic by retaining the existing maximum attack speed but adding more power.

So you didn't meet this goal. It's lessor then the existing maximum attack speed was? Wouldn't this oh so supposedly valuable player feedback be different if people knew that this was not a bedrock parameter? Maybe people would have pushed back harder on the proc reduction, or maybe people would've petitioned for more power since it's less attacks? All that player back of the napkin math, based on this "goal", was that all wrong and worthless?

Who knows? Maybe people would've drawn a line in the sand? Hmm, it seems the sands are shifting about to and fro within this game. What do people who "feel" they are on unstable footing do? Is it spend more or less money? What do people "feel" when the (supposed) shared goals get one-sidedly changed at the last minute? It "feels" to me like a complete waste of time and effort. And I get the impression no one cares how I feel. You (plural you) may feel like things are balanced, but I do not. What metrics do you have to measure player engagement?

If you didn't meet this goal, then what goal did you meet? I.E., what other goal was more important then maintaining the maximum attack speed? And are you *sure* that other goal is more important then your players' "feelings"? For the first time in a long time, I feel like the game is uncertain. And I question myself spending money on a game that I'm not sure is going to be as long lasting as I previously thought it was. Maybe the game will endure (hopefully) on and on and on... But, oh, what a poor feeling for any player to have, right? And that's just a quasi unsure feeling. I'm more sure that whatever this is, it just isn't fun. At least, not like it used to be.

How bizarre. Anymore coming here it's ommisions, semantics, parsing, and sometimes just plain dissembling. It's getting a little old, isn't it? You have such enthusisiastic players, but you temper them, blunt them away. So strange for people running a business in the business of making people have fun. What even are you doing anymore? And why is one of your players asking these questions instead of playing? I ask you, and I hope you ask yourselves, What even are you doing, anymore?

[Tsutti]

*Disclaimer, it doesn't mean I'm totally onboard w/ all the changes. I "get it" after a lot of clarification in many threads from you developers. Like I said we (players) have to change how we approach ranged combat and adapt our builds as best we can.*

Fair enough, can't say I like it but at least you've clarified things.

Bows are plenty strong now despite the lower attack speed, though if you guys are getting at possible issues with throwers based on the 86 --> 69 then I can see the problem.

Now that we have your attention, can you take a look at Hunters end issues?, sometimes when you use another skill too fast after hunters end it doesn't activate, main example or culprit is the combo "hunters end + Sniper Shot) if I do it too fast sometimes i just hit the sniper shot, this has happened way too many times, and its affect dps more than the AS we were discussing here.

This is indeed annoying, and is a problem with Adrenaline as well (for melee and ranged both). To be fair, while it's sometimes a bit annoying, you get used to it mechanically and your muscle memory starts to just properly wait a few beats in your tempo before hitting your big attack, and it's still vastly higher dps to just wait the second and use it than not use Hunt's End/Adrenaline at all. Been long enough since I played in either destiny to remember whether the ability goes on cooldown despite not going off when you do this, but if it doesn't then it's actually not affecting dps more than the attack speed. If it does, then it does affect dps more.

*snip*

I'ma be honest, I wasn't 100% sure what you were saying the entire time, but at least I can discern that you aren't happy about the attack speed being WAI for bows. I must inform you that their dps is currently solid, so while it's easy to think that this overall results in a nerf for bows, it actually doesn't. As far as I can tell so far, the bow pass was well done and successful.

[slarden]

Bows are plenty strong now despite the lower attack speed, though if you guys are getting at possible issues with throwers based on the 86 --> 69 then I can see the problem.

I have not verified the 86-->69 change myself but I do know my knife thrower takes longer to take down bruntsmash compared to before the release - this would certainly explain why.

Overall bows seem in a great place right now. A ranger 20 deepwood stalker build takes down bruntsmash faster than my pre-U49 thrower #s.

I am not super-inclined to worry about it and was going to tr my thrower into a bow user or bow/throwing hybrid - seems safe with Horizon Walker coming out soon which presumably could only buff bow builds further.

[Bacon_Burger]

Overall bows seem in a great place right now.

Yeah I can never tell from his posts whether he is just making stuff up or intentionally be deceptive - his stuff is so off the mark and misleading.

Bows are in a GOOD place NOT great.

[OfElectricMen]

(1) Yes, it is disappointing.
(2) I don't think it would affect other fighting styles since I believe it was said to be animation related. That said, you never know.

Tthere's a very discernible slow down on my Inquis now from before the update. And on a thrower.

They messed something up. That seems pretty clear to me.

[OfElectricMen]

We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended.

Literally every ranged character I have that isn't using a bow is attacking more slowly than they were, despite no changes to the characters on my end.

Also, if you really want to help archers, un-nerf IPS for them.

[LurkingVeteran]

Literally every ranged character I have that isn't using a bow is attacking more slowly than they were, despite no changes to the characters on my end.

Also, if you really want to help archers, un-nerf IPS for them.

Steelstar said they were not aware of more than at most 7% slowdown for throwers. It's moderately easy to test attack speed, bring us some numbers.

Are you sure the DPS loss isn't mostly just loss of nerve venom -> helpless procs?

I'm honestly not sure why bows would be in such a better position end game now than before if they actualy have 69 attacks per second now, would love to see the math on that. Seems fishy. Is it the multi-shot charges that made all the difference, or is that APS number without max alacrity or something?

[Artos_Fabril]

The speed is working properly, it's not displaying properly in the UI. Something I'd like to fix as time allows.

We currently have no indication that throwers are throwing slower than intended. Some throwing builds should be attacking slower than they were before U49 if they were leaning on the 7% Enhancement Bonus to Ranged Attack Speed that was removed from Blinding Speed and a few other sources.

Edit: As for the speed on Bows, it is currently delivering the intended speed, and it appears the U49 notes were not updated to reflect that; we have balanced Bow damage relative to the current attack speed, and while we may make adjustments to it in the future, we don't have plans to change it at this time. Will talk to the team about getting the notes updated.

So Rapid Shot is working, but bows are firing slower than Pre-U49, and slower than we were told the intended speed was, but that's because the intended speed was lowered, which was not previously announced?

And this "Bow Pass" was supposed to make the archer playstyle more effective independent of Horizon Walker?

[FengXian]

So Rapid Shot is working, but bows are firing slower than Pre-U49, and slower than we were told the intended speed was, but that's because the intended speed was lowered, which was not previously announced?

And this "Bow Pass" was supposed to make the archer playstyle more effective independent of Horizon Walker?

At this point it went back to being funny again.

This update will go down in DDO history xD

[slarden]

Bows are in a GOOD place NOT great.

I don't know about various level ranges, but at 30 it seems to be in a great place right now. I am not saying it needs a nerf, it just seems superior to other ranged options, many melee and all casting options in terms of raid boss dps. I am looking at it from that single dimension and not from the perspective of clearing a dungeon solo or leveling. Boss DPS is the #1 priority for 9 of 12 roles in the recent raids.

[Steelstar]

So Rapid Shot is working, but bows are firing slower than Pre-U49, and slower than we were told the intended speed was, but that's because the intended speed was lowered, which was not previously announced?

And this "Bow Pass" was supposed to make the archer playstyle more effective independent of Horizon Walker?

Correct on all points. Attack speed is not even close to the only metric at play here, and even at the current, lower-than-the-arbitrary-speed-you-were-stuck-at-before speed, most bow builds should be more effective overall than pre-U49. Your mileage will vary, as with every change, and we absolutely don't expect everyone to agree that it's better.