U49 Preview 2: Bow Combat Style Revamp

[Natashaelle]

• The Ten Thousand Stars feat no longer works with Bows; it now only applies its effects while using Shuriken.

Oh, good call !!

[Tilomere]

I want these changes:

1) Bow Strength changed from being bugged and not working at all on live to an insightful bonus to damage from strength, to preserve value of feat and D&D Lore.

2) Return my Unwavering Ardency for an anniversary token to preserve value of anniversary gift. I have better cannith crafted bows after the nerf.

3) Archer's Focus reworked to remove the standing still requirement, which makes it non-functional and pointless in a live combat game. Otherwise DWS is pigeon holed only viable enhancement tree due to ability to stack AF for both ranged and thrown, and a DWS splash is common for crossbows as well. Lower ranged power to 3 per stack. It's a dead on live, that becomes an even deader feat on lammania due to change in procs since it is a proc effect.

4) A minimum of 15 Ranged Power, 15% Doubleshot, and 15% Armor Penetration on all ranged enhancement trees. This includes AA, KoTC, Warpriest, and Warsoul, and mechanic. Otherwise DWS is pigeon holed only viable enhancement tree due to ability to break fortification and crit-burst reapers. Remove range restriction on Warpriest and Warsoul Ameliorating Shot healing, which makes that ability non-functional. Lack of these stats on mechanic makes it weak relative to inquisitor or a splashed endless fusillade gxbow build.

5) Additional damage die for AA imbues in an epic feat, and additional die scaling for AA imbues in an epic destiny feat. Transfer of one AA die from tier 2 and one from tier 3 to tier 4 and tier 5. One additional die in core 18 and 20. Early heroic AA imbue damage is too high, and late heroic and epic AA imbue damage is too low.

6) Shot on the Run reworked to a 10% movement speed bonus while a bow is equipped, that does not bring your total movement speed above 40%. This is due to lack of CC procs to reduce lag making slowly attacking and slow moving bow builds very vulnerable relative to great crossbow fusillade builds and rogue/ranger/bard thrower builds.

7) Double vorpal range in AA Tier 5 added to Runebow, to enable procs of smiting/disrupting/terror instant kills, since the entire character has to be built entirely around DCs to make such vorpal procs work, and the proc change would otherwise eliminate those builds as too large a nerf.

8) Reworking adrenaline to only first hit for all styles, and adrenaline recharge rate to be a fixed amount of time such as 12 seconds for all builds. If this is technically too difficult, allow ranged to multi-adrenaline, but at 150% instead of 400% bonus damage.

9) Fix to sneak attack accuracy to apply when sneak attack immunity is removed, to open up Shadowdancer as a ranged option.

10) A ranged version of the improved feint feat, which due to access from rogue or half-elf dilettante, will allow builds to access sneak damage after the proc nerf to reduce lag neuters deception procs. Otherwise DWS will again be mandatory for access to sneak attack damage via sniper shot.

11) A vendor, specifically designed to take trade-ins of nerfed items. It would take UA and return an anniversary token, or take a RL silverthread belt, and return a many-pouched belt of the healer. Or it would take my nerfed LGS items, and return ingredients. Or just give dust to make cosmetics out of, or astral shards, to reroll chests for replacements, or threads or runes for raid items, etc. While item nerfs may be balanced from one point of view, not everyone shares that point of view since they may build and use items differently, and a balanced nerf to one person may not be balanced to others. Those others should have an avenue out.

12) All of your changes hyper focus everyone to a single enhancement tree for ranged DPS, which is DWS. Everything else is going to die. Tempest/DWS is also going to dominate melee for the same reasons. The collapse of procs compresses the entire game population into have-everything enhancement trees, and DWS has everything. Everything else is going to implode.

[Tilomere]

On live my thrower can go through a stack of 500 knives in 2 min 10 seconds, consistently. I transferred the character over to Lamannia and the same 500 knives took 6 min 4. (No boosts/multitude of missiles, just auto attack and stop watch) Is this due to the changes to Blinding Speed &/or the changes to double-shot (multi-attack) for performance? Is this expected?

Another reference point, on live I ran "A Sharn Welcome" in 3 min 15 seconds, no boosts or multitude of missiles. Same toon on Lamannia took 4:14. Aside from the time delta it felt that on live this toon was one-shot (animation) killing most mob_type_villains, but two-shot on Lamannia.

Because shiradi nerve venom and LGS dust on throwing dagger isn't stacking in first/second/third hit anymore. All those hits only roll once for procs, and don't multiply the damage of other daggers in the same attack.

[mikarddo]

Because shiradi nerve venom and LGS dust on throwing dagger isn't stacking in first/second/third hit anymore. All those hits only roll once for procs, and don't multiply the damage of other daggers in the same attack.

Also, if any one crit will one shot then having a multi-hit all crit or not crit at the same time rather than each hit critting or not independently means you overkill more but less often oneshot.

So many nerfs with the buffs being tiny in comparison.

[CeltEireson]

I'm guessing doubleshot no longer consumes ammo with the new way it works but I'd have to test that myself to see for sure.

Plus if it was anything like when i was on Lam last night the lag was horrendous and a lot of my shots didn't seem to be going off at all with no record in the combat log.

[IlmerSilverhilt]

Hey all, did some testing of active shots on live and lama of current build and some variations thereof. On live it was against helpless dummy, all sneak attacks and no buffs other than using Hunts End + active shot. I figured I could easilly replicate this on Lamannia and I should see an increase in numbers. I couldnt level my guild so no access to dummies, instead I had to resort to the kobolds, which Im not sure were helpless or not... I guess I could have used pin or bird attacks to make sure, but I didnt do that. The numbers were pretty evenly compared to eachother, but Ill be back for more thorough tests later when I have the time. Numbers in quote are my Live numbers. 3 crits + 1 w/multis.

13 rogue 6 monk 1 fighter - 242 ranged power

On Live :
Pin: 46k, 46k, 45k - 84k (20roll)
Whistler: 45k, 45k, 48k - 87k (19roll)
Final Strike: 43k, 44k, 44k - 83k (19roll)
Slaying Arrow: 82k, 82k, 84k - 163k (19roll)

On Lama : 274 ranged power
Pin: 79k, 79k, 79k - 136k(19roll)
Whistler: 79k, 74k, 72k - 81k(20roll)?
Final Strike: 41k, 43k, 43k - 80k (20roll)
Slaying Arrow: 95k, 96k, 98k - 170k (19roll)

All saw a small increase exept Final Strike which is still pretty bad, and the pin crit strikes me as a little high so maybe new doubleshot at work? But overall I guess this accomplishes what they want in regards to increase in base dmg. I didnt test new manyshot (silly me), untill the last build, as I was more interested in comparing the other shots... I then respecced to 13rog 6fgt 1mnk, which Im leaning towards after monkcher nerf. I took Kensei tree as I was interested in the 500 point shots, they sounded like they could maybe rival Slaying Arrow in some situations!

13 rogue 6 fighter 1 monk - 305 ranged power
Pin: 58k, 58k, 57k - 100k (20roll)
Whistler: 58k, 58k, 58k - 90k (20roll)
Shattering Shot: 58k, 58k, 61k - 48k (20roll)? 99k (19roll)
Deadly Shot: 54k, 55k, 54k - 94k (20roll)
A Good Death: 65k, 66k, 66k - 106k (19roll)

Turns out the 500 shots arent as good as Slaying Arrow, but they are pretty good just a bit tricky to use. I still like this split but will prob stay AA/Falc if I go with this.

13 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk - 274 ranged power
Aimed Shot: 49k, 48k, 50k - 83k (19roll)
Sniper Shot: 62k, 61k, 60k - 98k (19roll)
Mercyful Shot: 44k, 44k, 44k - 82k (20roll)
Manyshot: 48k, 49k, 50k - 85k (20roll)

These were the numbers from DWS shots, think I forgot Leg Shot but Im guessing its in the range of Aimed Shot and Mercyful. Sniper Shot is cool but Im not sure I would take 6 ranger for it on my build. But I had the idea of some 8 6 6 abomination with 10 active shots to fire off while using unbridled Fury epic moment :P But I also learned that they change the whole doubleshot mechanic, and that getting procs and adrenalines are harder to do now...

I also tested some max crits and got this sweetie : (Combat): You sneak attack DPS Test Kobold for 770,562 points of pierce damage. Now, then I found out, thats probably 3 arrows rolled into one and my happiness vanished a little hehe Still good though! And I guess we still get to see some high numbers

I dont know if my numbers mean much but that was my test so far

[Monkey_Archer]

I also tested some max crits and got this sweetie : (Combat): You sneak attack DPS Test Kobold for 770,562 points of pierce damage. Now, then I found out, thats probably 3 arrows rolled into one and my happiness vanished a little hehe Still good though! And I guess we still get to see some high numbers

I dont know if my numbers mean much but that was my test so far

Its obviously not fair to try to read too much into this (no clue what debuffs used, etc...), but I do find it hilariously amusing that a single lucky shot followed by 23 seconds afk can do more dps than most melee builds on live.

Inquisitive 2.0?

[FengXian]

Haven't looked into this much so I'll reply more in depth later. Looks better, obviously.

I generally agree with droid. New MS will be strong in heroics although the CD reset is weird and bad quality of life tbh. Still looks a fairly elegant solution to the need to keep some burst and CD strategy, props for that!

Now it's no longer supposed to proc Adrenaline on all 3 shots, that does sound like a bit of a nerf but gonna have to see the numbers.

Swapping crit range and multiplier on PBS/CA as suggested was correct. The relative nerf to bows like Sting, UA and EThornlord still sucks given how rare they are to acquire, but this way it looks more like a +1crit range to every other bow at least.

Give the nerfed bows something else in return, at least the uber rare ones. Throw in some slots or W dice or something. Even better if it's unique (not necessarily damage related) buffs.

Having weapons that scale well throughout the years is GOOD. If a player had UA, dropped for 2 years and then returned, he'd still have a top tier bow for that level range, that feels good. The hamster wheel is already tough as is in this game. Let us keep our scaling gear.

[droid327]

I generally agree with droid. New MS will be strong in heroics although the CD reset is weird and bad quality of life tbh. Still looks a fairly elegant solution to the need to keep some burst and CD strategy, props for that!

Turns out the reset isn't weird after all so that's ok

[FengXian]

Turns out the reset isn't weird after all so that's ok

Cool, even more of an improvement then.

Let's see then:

1) Manyshot issue has been definitely improved, we'll see how it feels to play but now should have that tactical aspect back, at least partially.

2) Improved range on PBS is much more useful in heroics, making the named bows' nerf relative to other bows overall, and not just in epics.

3) +1 crit multi on CA (no longer just "elasticity") is great for epics.

4) Animation seems to have improved as well

That leaves us with the relative nerf to some big bows. Scaling weapons resist power creep, as long as they are the exception (and rare) they should not harm your design space much.

I suggest you leave the very rare bows as they are (EThornlord, maybe Collapsible? The few extremely rare ones) and compensate for the nerf in the other bows with a little goodie, a bit like you did with Silver Bow when ML got nerfed but it got a red slot in exchange.
That seems a good policy.

Now all this new Doublestrike/shot rework is also huge, since now Adrenaline "works" with extra strikes on melee as well, which might be a huge shift in balance between melee and ranged, at least it looks like it at first sight.

[IlmerSilverhilt]

My tests showed that Slaying Arrow is still king, but its wierd to not see seperate hits. But I guess we still get to keep our burst if we build for it - or it could just be the psychological effect of seeing a huge number, which Ive always built around. There is still some +'s missing, I belive its 885,765base+4,374sneak+1,336elec no debuff no Archers Focus, and it must be a 3 hit not enough DS now for 4 arrows

[Pandjed]

My tests showed that Slaying Arrow is still king, but its wierd to not see seperate hits. But I guess we still get to keep our burst if we build for it - or it could just be the psychological effect of seeing a huge number, which Ive always built around. There is still some +'s missing, I belive its 885,765base+4,374sneak+1,336elec no debuff no Archers Focus, and it must be a 3 hit not enough DS now for 4 arrows

Strange, shouldn't the comma come every 3 digits? Are there some numbers mashed maybe?

Would have been nice to see the combat log there.

[Drwaz99]

Would have been nice to see the combat log there.

It's there on the right-hand part of the screenshot.

[CeltEireson]

Strange, shouldn't the comma come every 3 digits? Are there some numbers mashed maybe?

Would have been nice to see the combat log there.

yeah it should read more like: 885,765; 4,374; 1,336

Now how the hell you get that kind of damage with one shot with no debuff and no Archers Focus is what I want to know!

[Pandjed]

It's there on the right-hand part of the screenshot.

Oh, you're right. Just hard to see.

[Yamani]

Oh, you're right. Just hard to see.

It's a bug with that format to where they overlap.

[Zeleron]

yeah it should read more like: 885,765; 4,374; 1,336

Now how the hell you get that kind of damage with one shot with no debuff and no Archers Focus is what I want to know!

It's arrow of slaying. Those do +250 damage * multiplier (in this case monkchers get x9 on 19-20) then also hunts end for the additional 400%. With the new multihit mechanic for combining 2-3 arrows into 1.

[LurkingVeteran]

R.I.P. Monkchers.

I don't have any skin in this game, but this isn't exaggeration. Monks went from a 10yr run as strongest bow class to probably the weakest in one patch (in a supposed bow buff-pass no less). That doesn't seem very wise. They have literally nothing else synergizing with bows except Ten Thousand Stars. Zen Archery was added to the game (and is a monk class feat) to enable monks to use bows. If you want to support monk bow users also, you need to give them something. The new BAB-based MP/DS also hurts monks because contrary to PnP they don't actually get full attack bonus with monk weapons, just +atk.

[Matuse]

Something needs to be added to these bows, or please just state that this "BOW PASS" is indeed a "BOW NERF".

Except it's just not, since Point Blank Shot (which every ranged build takes, and almost always by level 6, which is under the level of all the expanded threat range weapons) puts the "nerfed" bows back to exactly where they currently are. It also makes other bows more competitive so there's a reason why you might want to use them.

[CeltEireson]

It's arrow of slaying. Those do +250 damage * multiplier (in this case monkchers get x9 on 19-20) then also hunts end for the additional 400%. With the new multihit mechanic for combining 2-3 arrows into 1.

Thanks, but still almost 900k damage with one attack lol. Of course its likely an exceptional hit with the damage rolls being kind and as its dojo there would be no scaling down due to reaper but still...

Imagine a group of archers all getting getting off hunts end / slayers combination - not sure how long any boss would last.