Out of my sight, the situation is now that charisma based DC casters chose EA over Magister because of the +3 DC on all spells.
And this is bad and should be changed and it is good that you're going to do that!
But I also dont want the situation that after this changes charisma based DC casters have only Magister as the right choice.
Therefore EA should get also the same DC as Magister but not better.
For that purpose, EA should maybe also get the Master of [Spell School]: ability or something similar so EA is THE divine DC caster feat and on par with the Magister destiny after the changes.
wouldn't it make sense to have different destinies grant bonuses to a subset of spell schools?
otherwise every single DC caster from gravitates to the best (or now best two) ED.
That would pigeon-hole people too much imo. It's already kind of bad with "DC casting" being one destiny and nuking another, but twists mitigate this somewhat.
I'm a big fan of adding different types of utility to destinies. E.g. EA has very nice utility with heals, wings and self-rez. In that sense I think it's fine that Magister gets higher DC if it only has DC going for it, but if Magister summoning or sigils were actually useful, it would have been easier to meet parity with EA.
The problem with just boosting Magister this way is also in balancing it against all other caster trees that were much weaker than EA to begin with, e.g. Draconic, and hybrids like Primal Avatar and Shiradi. You need to substantially boost everything else. In any case, I'm positively surprised that they are working on the EDs. I just hope it's not a one-time thing because making lots of large changes quickly risks creating new imbalances.
Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 07-04-2019 at 05:32 AM.
EA MAGIBuyable DC 0 3 Passive DC 3 0 Buyable Spell Pen 1 3 Passive Spell Pen 0 5 Buyable Spell levels 0 3 Spell Levels 0 5 Temp boosts +2 CHA +2WIS +5 DC Situational boosts +2 CHA 15% +5 DC debuffs
Arcane POV, single school (mostly necro) is not all that far from each other, moving the 3 DC from Magister to a no-twist slot seems like enough to balance out once the uni DC boost is down to 1 minute.
Wizards are already better off in Magister. Warlocks have innate defenses/heals, so non issue to migrate over to Magi, while Sorcs need full retooling. Magister can affort to twist in acid dragon debuffs on top, that should be more than enough.
A proxy -1 static and -1 boost DC nerf for Sorcs who are already behind due to lack of feats, and enhancements...
Devs have been...inconsistent...on the vision for destinies over the years. It's been claimed more than once that destinies are supposed to be independent things not linked to particular classes, but then the clear implementation, from the start and the years since then, is actually for them to be fairly tightly coupled to specific classes.
If you actually want to make them class-independent as per the original dev vision for destinies, and do things like "Magister is the DC caster destiny", then you need Magister to actually be appropriate for any and all DC casters. Right now it only gives caster level increases to a few specific classes. Right now, it doesn't allow improvements to casting stat for all DC caster classes.
Since you haven't done so in the past, and claim do be doing only small tweaks now, I expect you probably won't actually make destinies destined for roles now, but instead leave their game mechanics tightly linked only to specific classes. Given that, then, yes, EA should be better...for divines it's built for. And Magister should be better for the arcanes it's built for. Since destinies are class-linked, it's dumb that Wizards get better use of a Divine destiny than divines, that Sorcs are far better off in a Divine destiny than an Arcane one. And it will be dumb when FvS get better use of Magister than arcanes and are better off there than in, say, EA.
TLDR: Figure out what you actually want destinies to do; twiddling with details when you have no vision just leaves a big mess.
It was added at a time when Wisdom-based casters were substantially behind arcanes in maximum DC potential. It did, then, help even them up versus Wizards. But it gave an (unintended?) huge bonus to the Cha-based arcanes, and even made EA have near the same DC potential for Wizards as Magister.
Though I wanted the effect at the time (certain primary DC casters not being hopelessly behind others), in retrospect, the method was probably not the best, and is probably no longer need.
That would be reasonable.
I don't disagree, but "e.g." means "for example".
kain741: About Wizards always being a couple of DC ahead, see this thread from 2016: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...or-all-classes
All classes' necro DC (the hardest to reach) were within 1.5 DC from Wizard, with the exception of Bards who were 2.5 DC behind. I had assumed the way the different paths added together to be fairly equal at cap was intended at the time. This will widen the gap for Wizards. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing for balance reasons, but it is an unstated side effect.
Please take a look at Astral Vibrance.
It doesn't even seem to work (at least the damage portion). Sure, I was on a level 20 bard build, so I don't know if that messed with things, but I never saw damage or healing procs (though I did have sustaining song on so I may have just missed them) and it never increased the cost (which I assume means it didn't do anything). I've watched it not do damage to mobs, to bosses, to anything. As for the healing, I didn't really test that much because with a ton of temp HP and healing over time from sustaining song I never needed it, but it's certainly marginally useful, if at all, because of the arcane health requirements and the fact that it, uh, doesn't seem to work.
I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
Reaper Experience Calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ewE/edit#gid=0 (out of date as of U42.4, needs testing for new values)
Ok, this is news, so I park my level cap tank in the tavern, turn on Astral Vibrance and go watch the latest episode of Battle Bots...
...checking back later on, it is still doing
-1 sp which tavern regeneration or most anything else handles
I guess I'll go park inside Devil's Assault for a damage test next.
Thoughts on the matter, I like that the major sp penalty has gone to -1 persistent (even if this means no damage therein which I will check under controlled conditions), however technically it is broken not working as intended.
As such there is the immediate danger that it will be fixed into the original highly undesirable (at for me) Astral Vibrancy not worth turning on (and having to make sure it is turned off after Ascendancy) version.
So, definitely needing a look if only to establish a new standard for this.
The overwhelming brightness of ascendancy along with the major sp drain of astral vibrancy was perhaps my strongest objections to Exalted Angel (beside my constant "why don't we have 10 epic destiny levels for all EDs?" drama).
Also, I have never felt that EA should exceed Magistar in DCs (although I have no objections to EA being very close to Magistar in DCs).
Update...
Took Fawngate into Devil's Assault on HN.
Astral Vibrance is on, turned on Ascendancy (which seemed to be less intense than I remember, perhaps it is my computer glass which protect against glare, but even taking them off it seems less but still problematic).
Went and watched more Battle Bots and came back.
Zero bats and devils were killed, despite the bats having a health of 9 hit points.
Miss, miss, miss, miss, miss = from foes
-1 sp, -1 sp, -1 sp with no perceptible damage/effects = from Fawngate
So currently, it is possible that someone did a quick fix of EA turning off the massive sp drain, toning down ascendancy a bit?
However this does leave the ascendancy / astral vibrancy in a state of limbo which could be reverted to a more harmful state by a well meaning quality assurance engineer later on...and also the -1 sp every two seconds is pointless with zero damage done.
I will continue to stand by complete removal of astral vibrancy for any other effect regardless of how minor.
Additional update...
After finishing watching Battle Bots and using up 1500ish spell points at -1 sp per 2 seconds, there were zero bats or devils killed, not even energy sheath killed (guards are not so effective for tank builds)…
Finished out, turned off Astral Vibrance, turn on Ascendancy and lo and behold Astral Vibrance did not auto turn on with Ascendancy, leaving me to believe that someone did a temporary quick fix on the worst parts of the EA ED?
Please leave the does not turn on during Ascendancy that way as it would be preferred by me.
Last edited by Silverleafeon; 07-06-2019 at 10:59 PM.
The proposal seems reasonable to me since wizard is about the only casting class where EA isn't the first destiny I consider. Arcane dc will never be perfectly balanced due to the different # of spell levels classes have. It makes sense to me arcane sphere has the highest dc potential.
With the changes to shiradi I hope you will consider adding more force items to the game. Force is nearly 2 years behind the loot inflation curve. Elemental damage has the stacking ravenloft belts. There are nice orbs for light and negative insightful spellpower and lore from sharn. Force has slavers crafting. Shiradi casting hasn't really been a thing since reaper was introduced - so it's a good time to implement the change.
It seems like Magister will be the best for max dc but not much else comes with it. Draconic is the blasting destiny and EA is a hybrid destiny with DC, self-healing and less dps than draconic. I wouldn't underestimate how good mass cure sla + divine wrath is.
Last edited by slarden; 07-07-2019 at 12:51 PM.
Note: Not counting evocation/conjuration/spell pen twists from draconic as they are available to all destines so it's a wash. Also to get tier 5 master of <school> precludes getting a 6th stat point.
Before Change:
EA Charisma Caster
+4 Universal DC from transcendental magic and angelic presence
+3 Universal DC from 6 charisma
+.5 Universal DC from 3rd racial past life
+3 DC in one school - twist from magister
+5 Spell Pen for divines only
+7.5 universal DC, +3 DC to main school, +3 spell pen for arcanes/primal, +8 spell pen for divines
EA Wisdom Caster
+3 Universal DC from transcendental magic
+3 Universal DC from 6 wisdom
+3 DC in one school - twist from magister
+5 spell pen for divines only
+7 universal DC, +3 DC to main school, +3 spell pen for arcanes/primal, +8 spell pen for divines
Wisdom casters have the opportunity to twist +2 wisdom from fury and +2 wisdom festival bonus also
Magister
+2.5 Universal DC from Int or Cha (24 pts to get master tier 5)
+3 DC in one school
+3 spell pen from tier 3
+3 spell pen from master tier 5
+5 spell pen for arcanes only
+2.5 Universal DC, +3 to main school, +6 spell pen for divines/primal, +11 spell pen for arcanes (extra .5 DC for cha casters due to 3rd racial life)
Int caster can get a DC from +2 festival bonus
After Change:
EA Charisma Caster
+4 Universal DC from transcendental magic and angelic presence
+3 Universal DC from 6 charisma
+.5 Universal DC from 3rd racial past life
+3 DC in one school - twist from magister
+5 Spell Pen for divines only
+7.5 universal DC, +3 DC to main school, +3 spell pen for arcanes/primal, +8 spell pen for divines
EA Wisdom Caster
+3 Universal DC from transcendental magic
+3 Universal DC from 6 wisdom
+3 DC in one school - twist from magister
+5 spell pen for divines only
+7 universal DC, +3 DC to main school, +3 spell pen for arcanes/primal, +8 spell pen for divines
Wisdom casters have the opportunity to twist +2 wisdom from fury and +2 wisdom festival bonus also
Magister
+5 Universal DC from Cores (assuming 5 and not 6)
+2.5 Universal DC from Int or Cha (24 pts to get master tier 5)
+6 DC in one school
+3 spell pen from tier 3
+3 spell pen from master tier 5
+5 spell pen for arcanes only
+7.5 Universal DC, +6 DC to main school, +6 spell pen for arcanes/primal, +11 spell pen for arcanes
It wasn't equal before and it's not equal after. The universal DC seems right. If they wanted to adjust anything I think it would have to be the tier 5 ability, but considering divines and EA has better healing options it seems like a fair trade off.
I have no skin in the game on the arcane vs. divine casting arguments as I have builds for both in my sig.
But I will point out that my fvs has significantly higher dc potential in EA than my warlock will have in Magister.
Assuming Gear and racial trees are equal, just comparing the fvs and warlock builds in my sig with fvs specializing in necro.
Warlock SE/TS build: 1 necromancy DC in tier 4, no festival cha augment, +7.5 Universal DC magister, +6 necro DC in magister, +11 spell pen in magister, 2 spell pen TS, + .5 universal DC from 3rd racial past life.
Fvs Wisdom AoV build: +3 universal DC from spell level (9 vs. 6), 3 universal dc in Aov cores, 1 evoc dc in tier 5, +1 dc from festival augment, +6 universal DC EA, +3 necro DC twist, +8 spell pen from EA, +1 spell pen from AoV
Total Warlock: +8 universal DC, +15 necro Dc, +13 spell pen
Total Fvs: +13 universal DC, + 16 necro DC, +9 spell pen
So I am not sure why this mythology that divines are way behind on DC persists. Even after this change divines will have a DC advantage over warlocks. EA also comes with some nice self-healing not available in Magister.
Before the changes EA is the go-to destiny choice for cha/wis casters hands-down. Int casters can't get a stat bonus from EA so it's not as good of an option, but if I could take EA with int stats vs. magister I would take EA any time with the current trees.
Last edited by slarden; 07-07-2019 at 02:23 PM.
ok so i would have suggestion since its being done!!!!!
unyealding sentinels stances could be changed in a way each of them works, for each of them to reflect 3 different scenarios, as i see it it could be like this:
1. stand against tide, a stance for tanking many targets, its bonus would grow based on how many enemies attacks you at same time, maybe give a % chance for certain attacks to be ignored in such scenario
2. unbreakable, a one target tanking scenario stance, where it focuses on keeping aggro, all defences foused on front,
3. battle stance, this one could be focused on damage, for situations where tank is not needed and its better for tank to just focus on doing damage, it could have a stacking damage bonus that would grow with attacking the enemies, also maybe there could be some upgrade to it in a tree that would add some debuff to said attacks?
i think that would create a situation where there woudl be actuall reason to swap between those stances and not just keep one on that we see as most useful.
ps: BTW PLEASE DO NOT ATTACH HP BONUS TO ONE STANCE ONLY AGAIN, having that 10% on wrong stance is annoying enough.
ps2: i do love the fact you add attacks to that tree, but they seem bit too singleminded, would be nice to have them somewhat differ like how lay waste and momentum swing differ from each other
ps3: do those new attacks mean intolerant blows will be gone from tree? hopefully yes
also the divine crusader destiny:
confront any foe, i think it would be best if it was just on cooldown, an attack that will not be useful as soon as turns are gone is a waste of points, lets assume that usual number of turns is around 20-25, that will be gone in a one encounter, and what then? they dont return fast enough. with its 10d10 damage i never used it as it was laughable damage for its turn cost.
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I'm not sure where the myth of divines being hopelessly behind arcane for DC casting comes from either.
I dont think there is enough of a draw in EA for divine DC casters after the pass. There could be. Hopefully steel is taking some of the suggestions from this thread and seeing if there are ways to implement.
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40 points is actually a really good idea. I totally ignore half the skills on any ED because I never have the points to spend on them and they are not powerful enough for any build to use some of the precious 24 points we do get. Extra points would allow us to play with some of the skills that normally get ignored (and wouldn't be overpowered because they skills were not that great anyway or we would be using some of our 24 points to get them).
Because the vast majority of casters badly need the extra DC to be able to perform at all. Ruining the game for 90% of casters because 1% of them are really powerful isn't a good solution. As long as DC casting remains on the D20 system (instead of going to a percent system like AC is now), there needs to be ways for the majority of casters to get their DC's up to the point of being at least slightly useful. The Magister changes are badly needed and a great improvement. If you want to campaign for a hard cap on how high DC's can go (so the majority of casters can attempt to get closer to the top players) I am open-minded to that change, but we don't need fewer easy DC increases in this game for the majority of players to use.
I disagree with nerfing spell DCs since having high DCs requires time investment putting together the right past lives and items. Also DC casters are very necessary for melee to be successful in group settings. Nerf the DC and you go back to a ranged metagame only since DC nerfs amount to knocking over the tripod keeping melee builds relevant.