Lh thth

[Paisheng]

thank you

I disagree with the OP. I've run THTH probably over 50 times on Thelanis. Pug groups are now hitting about 50% on normal, and yes guild or well organized groups probably 90% since the change. But we were 1/5 on the Hard efforts since the change. It's still no cake walk. One person not doing their task can quickly lead to failure.

Normal should be available for a pick up group with reasonable effort for success. Hard is still hard. And when/if you can regularly run elite successfully then your point may be valid. But no server has yet accomplished elite/reaper. Sounds like sour grapes that PUGS can now work hard for normal completions and acquire gear because the rest of us had to work hard on normal ourselves until the recent update.

And please don't sign for 'the raiding community.' I am part of that community and see things differently. Your view is yours. I suppose this thread will show the great diversity of views from part of the raiding community regarding this, unless of course my opinion is the outlier.

Edit: sorry not disagreeing with Original Poster but post Cordovan quotes:
Originally Posted by Clemeit
It's literally a cake walk now. Like an absolute 9-minute joke

[Kza]

Get off your high horses people.

Every raid should be easily completed by the average pug (assuming good teamwork and with just a little knowledge of the raid mechanics (ideally from knowledge available in the game itself.)

That should be the benchmark for normal difficulty.

For those who do not agree, or are "triggered" that normal is too easy, you are welcome to play the higher difficulties, there is no justifiable reason to promote exclusive ideas during a time when we (DDO community as a whole) need to be more inclusive and welcoming. The survival of DDO depends on it.

There is no reason to go taking a dump on the lawns of those who are destined to play normal.

Agreed 100%

[Sinetic]

I disagree with the OP. I've run THTH probably over 50 times on Thelanis. Pug groups are now hitting about 50% on normal, and yes guild or well organized groups probably 90% since the change. But we were 1/5 on the Hard efforts since the change. It's still no cake walk. One person not doing their task can quickly lead to failure.

Normal should be available for a pick up group with reasonable effort for success. Hard is still hard. And when/if you can regularly run elite successfully then your point may be valid. But no server has yet accomplished elite/reaper. Sounds like sour grapes that PUGS can now work hard for normal completions and acquire gear because the rest of us had to work hard on normal ourselves until the recent update.

And please don't sign for 'the raiding community.' I am part of that community and see things differently. Your view is yours. I suppose this thread will show the great diversity of views from part of the raiding community regarding this, unless of course my opinion is the outlier.

Edit: sorry not disagreeing with Original Poster but post Cordovan quotes:
Originally Posted by Clemeit
It's literally a cake walk now. Like an absolute 9-minute joke

So you have approximately run the raid multiple times a day everyday since its release? Who did you run with to complete the LH run with? The numbers of Cordo's post seem to be skewed if someone else on Thelanis completed besides us.

[entropyspinner]

Since we never normally give these numbers, we'll keep the number of Normal completions to ourselves other than to say it is being completed pretty regularly. We'd love to see some harder difficulty completions! It's quite unusual to see these numbers, not even sure when the last time this was.

I can tell you with certainty, the numbers for hard are not accurate, at least not since the last couple of days.

Even so, I'm not sure if it should matter. We can farm out what we need on normal. Aside from being ego-driven, there's incentive lacking to take the time and effort for higher difficulty completions.

[SmashBang]

so far all the videos I have watched of people completing are power toons, multiple past lives, lots of reaper points, several with reaper wings etc. Pugs full of power gamers is still a bunch of power gamers.

I have seen no strategy, just a massive DPS beatdown.

[Paisheng]

So you have approximately run the raid multiple times a day everyday since its release? Who did you run with to complete the LH run with? The numbers of Cordo's post seem to be skewed if someone else on Thelanis completed besides us.

Yes I have. Remember failures are runs. I have scores (probably like 40 between hard and normal and 2 r1 tries) of those. And I have 15 completions on Normal and 1 on hard (ran with mixed group but most of this run was made up of Storm Lords). That hard was done after the changes.

[Noir]

*Snip* I would say I spend upwards of $1k on this game in a year and still believe it's a steal with all the endless hours of entertainment I get out of it. You can't sell me on the idea of casual gamers spending that kind of money on a single game.

PFFFT!. I am a semi casual gamer and my wife is a casual gamer in every sense of the word.
Conservatively we just figured out that we spend $3600.00 a year on DDO. I am not on the
daily TR train nor am I on the End Game R10 group.
I play DDO for fun. I play alts even though some say it is a dead playstyle.

I would hazard to guess some of you that want to keep raid loot special are also some of the same that want to
have account based experience across all you current and future alts that the alt didn't earn.

I have yet to complete the Raid nor even make an attempt. I have been spending my gaming time acquiring Minor Artifacts
for all my level 30 alts. When I do wish to run the raid I will either find a pug group to join. get accepted in one of the private channels I monitor. Or start a LFM myself.

Normal difficulty and a chance at the raid loot should not be locked out to me when I choose
to step into the raid. I am not saying I expect a completion for no effort. I am just saying it should not be impossible.

As always the above stated is just my opinion. I do not speak for anyone other then myself.

[Sinetic]

Yes I have. Remember failures are runs. I have scores (probably like 40 between hard and normal and 2 r1 tries) of those. And I have 15 completions on Normal and 1 on hard (ran with mixed group but most of this run was made up of Storm Lords). That hard was done after the changes.

Ah alright. I was misinterpreting that as 50 normal completions rather than failures also being counted. Thanks for the clarification!

[DDO_Addict]

This bothers me a bit. that the pendulum swings so far.

Old time everquest/WoW player. Man these people have no idea how much effort and time went into gearing and or leveling a character was spent just to work through several raids with flagging required in sequence to be a top tier raider. Years devoted to a character. 1 to 4 good drops shared among 40 or more players. Gearing a Guild to advance to the next step so the tank could take the damage, the clerics to have the mana, the dps to meet the kill time before the Boss just went into god mode and wiped the whole raid. 1 miss step by one person in the party of 40 could wipe the whole raid. Trash respawns shared zones ect ect.

Paying is the ability to play and enter. It doesn't entitle you to jack as far as completions. No one is saying you're not wanted but why play if its not to challenge yourself. Where's the accomplishment in completing it on ezmode? Watch a live feed or youtube and click at your keyboard.

Also, VIP with all expansions casual, never set foot in it. Why? I know my limit play in the league I can hit the speed of the pitch. There has to be something to work for to keep the interest up. other wise the grind is just the grind.

That is why we don't play games like Wow/Everquest.

D&D is based on completing sessions with a normal set of equipment at level and a plan to succeed with a reasonable chance of success. A raid just means 12 people (instead of up to 6 - when a normal party used to actually be 4 when calculation the encounter) that have a plan on how to accomplish it.

That is why there are more difficult levels for those who farmed / bought equipment and need a greater challenge.


Please don't make it WOW / Everquest. Those people complaining can just go back to those style games.

[Innokentiy]

It's literally a cake walk now. Like an absolute 9-minute joke.

Thanks for completely ruining the "hardest" raid in the game by caving into pressure from players who have absolutely no interest in bettering their characters to meet a challenge. Now everybody has easy access to the best gear in the game without a shred of work. Naked characters? No problem. Absolutely no strategy? Step right up. We had something good. No longer.

Also, please demote the raid to a Tier 2 raid. It has absolutely no place being in a class of its own any longer.

Sincerely, the raiding community.

What are your problems, mr. Raiding? Run this raid on elite and be happy of this difficulty. Im glad that you have a guild or crew full of powerful raiding guys but why are you raging about some people in pugs can do now normal runs? They still have interest in improving characters to run hardest mode. Is it kinda breaking your pride or something?
Btw all this "best" gear is not even worth of original difficulty.

[Epicstorms]

It's literally a cake walk now. Like an absolute 9-minute joke.

Thanks for completely ruining the "hardest" raid in the game by caving into pressure from players who have absolutely no interest in bettering their characters to meet a challenge. Now everybody has easy access to the best gear in the game without a shred of work. Naked characters? No problem. Absolutely no strategy? Step right up. We had something good. No longer.

Also, please demote the raid to a Tier 2 raid. It has absolutely no place being in a class of its own any longer.

Sincerely, the raiding community.

Wow what a bad post. Just run R10 and say it's a cake walk then.

Oh noes hard is easy in a proper group, now other people that aren't part of a solid group or guild can play it. What a shame. Not.

Just up the difficulty. It's not rocket science.

Also as far as I know this is not the general opinion of the raiding community so don't act like your opinion is the same for all of us. thanks

[Epicstorms]

This post obviously concerned me when I read it recently, and our intention is certainly not to make the raid that easy. I have been keeping an eye on completion rate data, and so far it appears the recent changes have only led to a small bump in higher-difficulty completions. I do recognize that the completion statements made in the forums are not 100% equal to the reported number of Hard completions below, so it could be a matter of reporting delay, but we also want to make sure the numbers are being reported accurately. This data is from the past 12-ish hours:



Since we never normally give these numbers, we'll keep the number of Normal completions to ourselves other than to say it is being completed pretty regularly. We'd love to see some harder difficulty completions! It's quite unusual to see these numbers, not even sure when the last time this was.

Don't listen to that guy really. Pugs are still struggling with normal and hard. The poster is just completing hard in a solid (guild) group and expected it to be harder. Probably still wiping on elite.

Also posting completion rates per server are kinda lame. Just have a general number server wide, no need to "rank" the servers like this.

[jskinner937]

It's literally a cake walk now. Like an absolute 9-minute joke.

Thanks for completely ruining the "hardest" raid in the game by caving into pressure from players who have absolutely no interest in bettering their characters to meet a challenge. Now everybody has easy access to the best gear in the game without a shred of work. Naked characters? No problem. Absolutely no strategy? Step right up. We had something good. No longer.

Also, please demote the raid to a Tier 2 raid. It has absolutely no place being in a class of its own any longer.

Sincerely, the raiding community.

To compare normal easy completions to a raid that has yet to have any elite completions and say it should be demoted to a tier 2 raid. This is clearly not the raiding community and not signed, supported, etc.

As a matter of fact this individual is a lot of what is wrong with raiding in this game.

[blerkington]

This post obviously concerned me when I read it recently

Of all the nonsense written on the forums every day stuff like that little tantrum about how the toy should only be for him should concern you the least. It's schoolyard stuff and doesn't even deserve an official response, interesting as those stats were.

You have multiple difficulty settings to cater for the entire raiding community, from casual raiders to the hardcore, so just use them. The people who really crave challenge can already run this stuff on harder settings if that's all they really want. But if it was just about challenge we wouldn't be having this conversation, so as you can see it's really about setting restrictions on how other people get to play the game.

The raiding community is diverse and you should be very wary of people pretending to speak for all of it. Clemeit's opinions are absolutely not shared even by all the other people who complete raids on harder difficulty settings including those up into mid skull difficulties.

You don't see hardcore raiders from my server here whining about this, trying to throw their weight around to dictate terms and pee on everyone else's fun; they are working on their tactics and getting the practice in for good achievements instead.

Thanks.

[slarden]

Of all the nonsense written on the forums every day stuff like that little tantrum about how the toy should only be for him should concern you the least. It's schoolyard stuff and doesn't even deserve an official response, interesting as those stats were.

You have multiple difficulty settings to cater for the entire raiding community, from casual raiders to the hardcore, so just use them. The people who really crave challenge can already run this stuff on harder settings if that's all they really want. But if it was just about challenge we wouldn't be having this conversation, so as you can see it's really about setting restrictions on how other people get to play the game.

The raiding community is diverse and you should be very wary of people pretending to speak for all of it. Clemeit's opinions are absolutely not shared even by all the other people who complete raids on harder difficulty settings including those up into mid skull difficulties.

You don't see hardcore raiders from my server here whining about this, trying to throw their weight around to dictate terms and pee on everyone else's fun; they are working on their tactics and getting the practice in for good achievements instead. How about try something other than massive energy aborsb some time.

Thanks.

Completely agree. If people think LN is a cakewalk they should move up to another difficulty rather than trying to change the lowest difficulty. Since the change I haven't run the raid on LN yet due to lack of interest (no lfms) but heard of 3 attempts and fails, but it seems people are getting further and the last half is completed through brute force high dps until people figure out the missing mechanic the devs are referring to.

Trying to exclude others and lower their loot drops is nothing new, but the game has the opposite problem if anything - the top players have too much power in relation to players that can't spend enough time on the grinds or bypass it with $. I appreciate the devs making adjustments and haven't seen any indication it's a cakewalk.

Grats to the group completing on LH - Sarlona has a lot of great players and I am so proud of my server for not being part of the git gud rants and instead just upping their game with higher difficulty completions rather than trying to knock others down. There is nothing I need from the raid and am not seeing lfms so will stop wasting time looking for lfms and focus on something I can control. I hope the next raid isn't like this so I can find enough people interested in running a pug raid. All of the raiding groups I was part of are effectively gone or no longer raiding (people left or stopped raiding). Hope to see the game move in a better direction as raiding was the one place where people of all skill levels could come to together and have fun.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Total completions (by group, so one raid group is one completion) since the raid opened with Update 42.

Any chance you could tell us how many normal completions took place on Wayfinder?

lol (Poking fun at the lack of efforts to remedy the wayfinder population problem)

[FlavoredSoul]

Get off your high horses people.

Every raid should be easily completed by the average pug (assuming good teamwork and with just a little knowledge of the raid mechanics (ideally from knowledge available in the game itself.)

That should be the benchmark for normal difficulty.

For those who do not agree, or are "triggered" that normal is too easy, you are welcome to play the higher difficulties, there is no justifiable reason to promote exclusive ideas during a time when we (DDO community as a whole) need to be more inclusive and welcoming. The survival of DDO depends on it.

There is no reason to go taking a dump on the lawns of those who are destined to play normal.

This is the attitude that kills raiding, the idea that everyone should be able to complete raids is (among other things) what ruined WoW.

"inclusive" design is absolutely toxic to a healthy game environment.

[rfachini]

That is why we don't play games like Wow/Everquest.

D&D is based on completing sessions with a normal set of equipment at level and a plan to succeed with a reasonable chance of success. A raid just means 12 people (instead of up to 6 - when a normal party used to actually be 4 when calculation the encounter) that have a plan on how to accomplish it.

That is why there are more difficult levels for those who farmed / bought equipment and need a greater challenge.


Please don't make it WOW / Everquest. Those people complaining can just go back to those style games.

I agree.

This is the attitude that kills raiding, the idea that everyone should be able to complete raids is (among other things) what ruined WoW.

"inclusive" design is absolutely toxic to a healthy game environment.

I disagree, and I have a lot of respect for your opinion.

In my view, DDO has a tradition of being for everyone. No 3-hour cross country treks to get to the adventure--you are immediately teleported there. Solo-friendy, hirelings of all kinds, casual mode options. Or reaper 10. Take your pick.

Many of us, including myself, grew up with D&D in the 70s or 80s playing around a table where story and role playing were the focus. That's why we have been playing DDO for 13 years. Many have jobs or families and can only play occasionally. Many of us are older and don't have the leet gaming skills. There is a store and Rez cakes and a jibbers blade so that the less-than-the-best can still enjoy lower difficulties.

There is also Elite and reaper and rewards that only the best will achieve. That is fantastic too. This game has creative developers and all play styles can be accommodated. The more people that enjoy the game, the more they will stay, the more groups there will be, and the longer the game will last.

[Alled78]

I think the time will help people Learning the raid. Its a nonsense keeping normal difficulty
Doable only by superstrong people, r10 is for them!

I played melee and healer part and didnt see the difference between the 2 versions


But i think the most important role is the trash and skull clearers


We wiped many times because we weremissing people dealing with skulls (sorc and cleric strongly suggested)

Ass soon as we found role covered we completed..

Not easy with pug

In cannith we try the quest every day nore than once in pug. (Dunno about private run)

[Quikster]

This is the attitude that kills raiding, the idea that everyone should be able to complete raids is (among other things) what ruined WoW.

"inclusive" design is absolutely toxic to a healthy game environment.

Actually exclusivity is toxic. People will stop buying new content if they can't even sniff a group because they aren't 'leet enough.