Turn Undead Guide: 2017

[FranOhmsford]

The rest I've already explained why I disagree with you. But I want to touch on these items above.

Actually No Charisma is not a dump stat of clerics and only used for TU. There are other abilities that utilize charisma. We obviously play this class differently so we won't agree.

What other abilities? I note you don't even name one.

Force of Personality only works with Will Save. A Paladin with enough levels is already getting a bonus of their Charisma Modifier to "All Saves". Replacing the Wisdom Modifier for the Charisma Modifier does give a nice bonus to a save. But when you are already 90+ without it at your final build at what benefit is making it 120+? Personally, I recommend against Force of Personality for a Paladin simply because their overall saves are already very high. In many cases turning to Spell Resistance or Spell Absorption for the few places a much higher Save is needed is a better investment for builds that use the paladin class for saves.

Sorry but the vast majority of players don't have 90+ will saves!

Just because a score is possible doesn't mean it's standard!

If you base the Wisdom needs only on Spell Casting you are correct a paladin with an adjusted wisdom of 14 is all that is needed to cast spells especially since DC casting does not have depth. But as you pointed out with Force of Personality. A decent investment in Wisdom can be a benefit with Will Saves.

Lol - When you're Charisma is likely at least 20 points higher than your Wisdom and probably much much more putting a couple of extra points into Wisdom is hardly going to compete with the benefits of Force of Personality

Next on Bow Strength - That is added damage not "to-hit". A fighter could go Dexterity based with the options available via feats, multi-classing or even using racial features trading strength for Dexterity for example.

Yep, it's an OPTION for Fighters...... Why can't Clerics have similar OPTIONS!

[goblean]

Agree with all of this. The "use Wisdom instead" has no lore or rules basis.

The "use wisdom" argument is just one for people who want easier builds and less challenge and fewer trade offs. /not signed.
Fix the mechanics issues. The stat is not the problem. As already shown, you don't have to sacrifice wisdom to get the needed charisma.

"Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute..."

The save is based on the casters primary stat, which in this case is Wisdom.

http://www.5esrd.com/classes/cleric/...ty_Turn_Undead

[Renvar]

"Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute..."

The save is based on the casters primary stat, which in this case is Wisdom.

http://www.5esrd.com/classes/cleric/...ty_Turn_Undead

That would be a good point, if DDO was (loosely) based on 5th edition SRD. But it is not.

Here is the correct link for you:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Turn_or_Rebuke_Undead

What other editions or homebrew rule sets or other games do is not relevant, imo. If you look hard enough, you can find all kinds of fun stuff.

Here is a link where D&D 2E supports using Turn Undead on extraplanar creatures and turns it into a banishment feature almost:

https://alzrius.wordpress.com/2016/0...fiends-add-2e/

[zehnvhex]

Charisma is your ability to influence others, which is what a turning check is. It's simply do you have the bravado and commanding presence to force the undead to flee.

The undead do not get a save or will check, nor is it a check against your will.

It was turned to wisdom in 5 because almost everything in 5 was simplified to avoid having to make decisions. I mean heck, if you played during the good AD days many people would try to build in 15 wisdom because it gave you a 10% xp bonus.

That being said I wouldn't be against an enhancement that allows you to use your wisdom modifier instead of cha for turning checks, but only if it's part of a larger fix for turning in general. It's such an iconic part of the cleric kit. I'd love for them to retcon and add a bit of 1st/2nd edition back in and allow you to turn lesser demons/devils as well.

[FranOhmsford]

Charisma is your ability to influence others, which is what a turning check is. It's simply do you have the bravado and commanding presence to force the undead to flee.

The undead do not get a save or will check, nor is it a check against your will.

It was turned to wisdom in 5 because almost everything in 5 was simplified to avoid having to make decisions. I mean heck, if you played during the good AD days many people would try to build in 15 wisdom because it gave you a 10% xp bonus.

That being said I wouldn't be against an enhancement that allows you to use your wisdom modifier instead of cha for turning checks, but only if it's part of a larger fix for turning in general. It's such an iconic part of the cleric kit. I'd love for them to retcon and add a bit of 1st/2nd edition back in and allow you to turn lesser demons/devils as well.

Actually it's 16 main stat for +10% xp not 15.

Generally people's main stat would be 17 or 18 anyway but yeah.

And I'd be ok with an Enhancement allowing a Cleric or Paladin to use TU as a banishment as well as vs Undead but that's just an extra.

[Enoach]

What other abilities? I note you don't even name one.



Sorry but the vast majority of players don't have 90+ will saves!

Just because a score is possible doesn't mean it's standard!



Lol - When you're Charisma is likely at least 20 points higher than your Wisdom and probably much much more putting a couple of extra points into Wisdom is hardly going to compete with the benefits of Force of Personality



Yep, it's an OPTION for Fighters...... Why can't Clerics have similar OPTIONS!

What can a Cleric use Charisma For:

• Turn Checks <- Added just to keep the list complete
• Divine Might <- Mainly used by Melee focused Clerics which is also not unheard of for them to drop Wisdom in favor of other attributes
• Social Skills <- Bluff and Diplomacy in combat situations can expand on a Cleric's ability to draw individual mobs or shed agro. Diplomacy used in cooperation with Intimidate is a powerful way to help the Tank establish agro. Also don't rule out use of Intimidate, which can pull a mobs agro off a party member in trouble

Then if you throw in races like PDK and Dragonborn the use of Charisma expands even further.


The 90+ saves was in the discussion of Paladin, not every character. Actually, I think most paladin players (and even some non) have some pretty high saves thanks to Divine Grace - or was the whole blow up about the change in requiring n Levels something I imagined .


Personally, I would love to see them add more "To-Hit" based on non-traditional attributes. Right now we have Options for Strength, Dexterity (limited by weapons via feat, racial enhancements and class enhancements), Charisma (limited to swords and a single race), Constitution (limited to picks, hammers and axes and a single race) and Intelligence limited to access to the Harper Tree. That leaves Wisdom as the last attribute that does not have a build option towards even one limited like Constitution and Charisma.

Again, we both have different ideas of how a Cleric works. Each of us bases this off of our own experiences with the class. Both of us seem to have experience with the class going back to PnP. My experience is with Basic, AD&D and 3.5 on. You seem to have 2 and 3 experience (a versions that I did not play). We are not going to agree that a Charisma trade off vs Max Wisdom favors Charisma in my opinion.

[PermaBanned]

Here's a simple fix I'm guessing the Devs could put in tomorrow if they wanted....
1) Make TU Wisdom Based
2) Add Allow use of Charisma with TU to Force of Personality Feat so that Paladins who wish to use TU can take Force of Personality, max Cha and be almost as good as a Cleric.

So your quick & easy solution is to change from Cha to Wis for the base stat, which does nothing to address the max HD cap problem; then charge Pallys an extra feat to just be as almost as a good as a Cleric as they are now without paying an extra feat... Brilliant.

...and that would solve what, exactly?

[karatemack]

How are you getting Aureon's instruction (which is a deity only for ebberon characters) combined with Bane of The Restless, which is a Morninglord enhancement? Or am I misunderstanding the acronym BoTR?

Crud. I hadn't calculated in BoTR originally but added it after someone else in the thread mentioned it. I will go back through and adjust for this later. Good catch!

(dealing with a lot at work right now so might be next week until more edits to the OP happen, however, if anyone else notices any errors/oversights please mention so I can correct)

[FranOhmsford]

What can a Cleric use Charisma For:
[*] Turn Checks <- Added just to keep the list complete[*] Divine Might <- Mainly used by Melee focused Clerics which is also not unheard of for them to drop Wisdom in favor of other attributes

These are in effect the same thing!

Divine Might uses Turns.

And a Melee Cleric dropping Wisdom - This is because Melee Clerics tend to have no more than 12 Cleric Levels absolute maximum, at this point spells are just for buffs and self-heals.

[*] Social Skills <- Bluff and Diplomacy in combat situations can expand on a Cleric's ability to draw individual mobs or shed agro. Diplomacy used in cooperation with Intimidate is a powerful way to help the Tank establish agro. Also don't rule out use of Intimidate, which can pull a mobs agro off a party member in trouble

Oh come on now!

These aren't a reason to max out Charisma.

Then if you throw in races like PDK and Dragonborn the use of Charisma expands even further.

Dragonborn?

PDK works yes but that's one race and it's about the race not the class.

The 90+ saves was in the discussion of Paladin, not every character. Actually, I think most paladin players (and even some non) have some pretty high saves thanks to Divine Grace - or was the whole blow up about the change in requiring n Levels something I imagined .

Come off it, 90+ is still incredibly high even for a Paladin!

Personally, I would love to see them add more "To-Hit" based on non-traditional attributes. Right now we have Options for Strength, Dexterity (limited by weapons via feat, racial enhancements and class enhancements), Charisma (limited to swords and a single race), Constitution (limited to picks, hammers and axes and a single race) and Intelligence limited to access to the Harper Tree. That leaves Wisdom as the last attribute that does not have a build option towards even one limited like Constitution and Charisma.

Wis to hit {and damage} would help yes and I've asked for Warpriests to get that on numerous occasions too.

[TDarkchylde]

These are in effect the same thing!

Divine Might uses Turns.

And a Melee Cleric dropping Wisdom - This is because Melee Clerics tend to have no more than 12 Cleric Levels absolute maximum, at this point spells are just for buffs and self-heals.

Clerics haven't had to spend Turns for Divine Might since the change in the enhancement system, so that FvS could also get it via a shared tree (first Protection, then Warpriest.) Paladin DM still uses Turns.

One of my current melee Clerics has 15 Cleric levels. Two others have 17 apiece. I've built pure Cleric melees in the past.

As for the state of Turning in the current game, if you bring a Turn-specced Cleric to the new raid, you will get love and hugs forever. I do wish they'd give it more uses and a little bit more power in the Epic game though.

[FranOhmsford]

As for the state of Turning in the current game, if you bring a Turn-specced Cleric to the new raid, you will get love and hugs forever. I do wish they'd give it more uses and a little bit more power in the Epic game though.

One Raid doesn't a decent build make.

I have never played the new raid and likely won't play the new raid on ANY Character for quite a long time as I've got 500 or maybe even 5000 TRs/Racial TRs/Iconic TRs and Epic TRs to get through FIRST!

Legendary is not for me!

And I'm sorry but I want to have fun playing my characters from lvl 1 TO lvl 30 NOT JUST AT LVL 30!

This insistence on maxing everything out only works when you only care about cap.
I'm not going to quest for 2 hrs then spend the next 3 days trying to find/make gear for the next 2 hrs questing!

[Grace_ana]

I have a lvl 30 cleric, but she's terribly neglected and only first life. Even so, I was able to turn through most of heroics and a few epics. Had I invested in stats, gear, more lives, etc. she would be able to actually use it. I've seen karatemack's cleric in action, since being my husband I force him to carry my butt through everything. He's almost always successful in his turns through all content, providing it's not warded. And he doesn't only spec for turning - he is (depending on what he decides to do each life) either a ridiculously effective necro DC caster or a blasting light caster. He saved our butt more than once using turns, especially in the new raid.

I do think turning needs to be tweaked to make it a little more accessible and to make it scale better. I do NOT think it needs huge crazy overhauls, like changing the DC stat. Turning is one of the few class-unique, authentic-to-DnD things we have left in DDO (RIP Divine Grace). Let's fix it, not destroy it or make it a cookie cutter of every other class ability.

[Vish]

I would just multiply evrything by x10 and call it good

Otherwise, move aura to core4
Then make tier 5 something like obliterate undead
That allows all clerics access to aura,
And makes radiant undead killer

[Nandos]

The developers have slowly been improving feats the last few updates. It would be great if they could buff the Improved Turning feat to make it more viable.

[FranOhmsford]

The developers have slowly been improving feats the last few updates. It would be great if they could buff the Improved Turning feat to make it more viable.

They need to merge it into the Extra Turning Feat or the other way round - Charging Clerics TWO Feats for Turn Undead is just wrong.

I would say to double the bonus minimum too....

Current Improved Turning - Gives you the ability to turn undead as if you were one cleric level higher.
Wow, forget doubling it - This needs tripling minimum!

[PermaBanned]

They need to merge it into the Extra Turning Feat or the other way round - Charging Clerics TWO Feats for Turn Undead is just wrong.

Interesting, earlier in this thread you proposed charging Pally's a feat just to Turn as "well" as they do now as part of your "simple & easy solution."

Regardless, they don't "charge" Clerics Feats to Turn - those are yewb trap feats like so many others.

I would say to double the bonus minimum too....

Current Improved Turning - Gives you the ability to turn undead as if you were one cleric level higher.
Wow, forget doubling it - This needs tripling minimum!

Or one could simply spend their feat choices bet-erm... differently ^^

[karatemack]

Interesting, earlier in this thread you proposed charging Pally's a feat just to Turn as "well" as they do now as part of your "simple & easy solution."

Regardless, they don't "charge" Clerics Feats to Turn - those are yewb trap feats like so many others.


Or one could simply spend their feat choices bet-erm... differently ^^

Look, if the DEVs wanted feats to be the gatekeeper between effective turning throughout the game and how it is today... that would be OK. But Improved and Extra Turning should be combined into 1 feat and, as FranOhmsford pointed out, be given a boost to make it worth the decision to take the feat. Maybe "Improved Turning- Gain 1 extra turn per rest and add +2 to cleric level and maximum hit dice of undead you can affect when turning undead is increased by 2."

Also, I would even be OK if they added an epic feat which added an additional +6 to the effective turning level, maximum hit dice and total hit dice. This would also provide a decent boost to all things turning.

HOWEVER, I would much prefer that the boost to Turn Undead happen via equipment (item bonuses) rather than feats. Make some of the boosts multiplicative rather than additive or significantly (double?) the bonuses granted by gear. -OR- Boost the turning buff granted by Cleric past lives. -OR- Add something to the Morninglord PLs which grants a bonus to turning (since they do have BoTR... it fits thematically). -OR- some combination of these suggestions and/or those made by others.

It would be nice if a DEV would stop by and answer the questions still looming about the mechanics of Turn Undead also. That would more than likely make the conversation more productive.

[PermaBanned]

Look, if the DEVs wanted feats to be the gatekeeper between effective turning throughout the game and how it is today... that would be OK. But Improved and Extra Turning should be combined into 1 feat and, as FranOhmsford pointed out, be given a boost to make it worth the decision to take the feat. Maybe "Improved Turning- Gain 1 extra turn per rest and add +2 to cleric level and maximum hit dice of undead you can affect when turning undead is increased by 2."

Also, I would even be OK if they added an epic feat which added an additional +6 to the effective turning level, maximum hit dice and total hit dice. This would also provide a decent boost to all things turning.

HOWEVER, I would much prefer that the boost to Turn Undead happen via equipment (item bonuses) rather than feats. Make some of the boosts multiplicative rather than additive or significantly (double?) the bonuses granted by gear. -OR- Boost the turning buff granted by Cleric past lives. -OR- Add something to the Morninglord PLs which grants a bonus to turning (since they do have BoTR... it fits thematically). -OR- some combination of these suggestions and/or those made by others.

It would be nice if a DEV would stop by and answer the questions still looming about the mechanics of Turn Undead also. That would more than likely make the conversation more productive.

I somewhat agree with all of that (except the end statement which I agree with completely )

Toward feats: I wouldn't want to see a Feat tax instituted on effective Turning. Perhaps making the Feats ~equivalent to (and thus replaceable by) having Cleric PLs would be a good use for them though.

However, I think the root of the problem isn't in gear or feats or enhancements - in other words, it's not an issue of not enough available power (thougb the lack of gear love has stung a bit ). The real cause is the scaling HD of Undead (particularly for the mid-level 20 and up Epic & Legendary Elite Undead) vs the "Max HD Turnable" hard cap. The gear etc bonuses required to make Turning a viable option at those ranges would just look ludicrous on paper, seething akin to "+40 Max HD Turnable, Toatal HD Affected x3" or some such. The mechanic needs adjusting, IMO use gear etc after mechanical adjustments to tweak the total effectiveness a character can achieve.

No doubt Dev involvement would help, here's to hoping...

[guardianx2009]

First off, let me say thanks Karatemack for taking the reigns and giving me the credits. Glad to know something I wrote many years ago provided positive influence even to this day!

That being said, here's my input on the current state of turns:
Max Turn Levels: My current max turn level is in the low 50's. But this is because I don't have that new cleric Aureon feat. So that would put me in the mid 50's. I am surprised to hear anyone can reach 60s, seems like you would need Morninglord + paldin splash to reach. I don't think any pure cleric can reach that high at the moment. I'd like to hear from anyone that actually reachs high 50-60s.

My thoughts: As a player who specializes in Cleric and have a lot of experience with turning, I think with a few tweaks the current system would be fine. Massive overhaul isn't needed to make turning effective in end-game.

I would be happy with the following:
Increase Max Turn Level
Increasing the max turn level to 70's would probably make it useful in LE/reaper. Ways to do this include improving the turning feats to provide +4 turn levels instead of the crappy 1 that it is now. The Exalted Angel destiny should provide turn levels per Exalted Angel level. And lastly, a few additional levels can be added in the form of gear (Legendary GS? Mythic Turning?).

Increase Turning Damage
Increase turn damage by doubling it through temporary effects. For example, double when Ascendance is active. Doubling will allow turns to kill 2, maybe 3 undead at a time.

Make Mighty Turning toggle-able
Allow clerics to control whether they want the undead to cower or not.

[Silverleafeon]

+1 Thanks!

Quoting In my thread for future reference.