Turn Undead Guide: 2017

[karatemack]

Here is what we know about Turn Undead as it stands today:

Turn Undead Check
This is the check to determine the Hit Dice of the most powerful enemy you can turn. This is also the value which must be DOUBLE (unless you have the Mighty Turning enhancement) the Hit Dice of the undead you are turning in order to instantly destroy them.

Current Turn Undead Check Formula= 1D20 + Charisma Modifier

Charisma Modifier
Base Stat Calculations:

Build Description	Base Stat	Level Up Points	Tomes	Enhancement Bonus (EQ)	Insightful Bonus	Quality Bonus	Exceptional Bonus	Profane Bonus	Artifact Bonus	Ship Buffs	Completionist Feat	Reaper Bonus (helm)	Human Racial Enhancement Tree	Class Enhancements	Epic Destiny	Twist of Fate	Epic Feats	Racial Past Lives	Total Charisma
Non-Human Non-Max	16	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	63
Non-Human Non-Max CHA-Focused	18	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	65
Human Max	18	5	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	4	4	6	5	4	2	95
Human Non-Max	16	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	4	0	0	0	0	0	67
Human Non-Max CHA-Focused	18	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	4	0	0	0	0	0	69

Resulting Modifiers (respectively):
+26
+27
+42
+28
+29

Turning Check Result	Highest Hit Dice Turned
Up to 0	Turning Value -4
1 - 3	Turning Value -3
4 - 6	Turning Value -2
7 - 9	Turning Value -1
10 - 12	Turning Value +0
13 - 15	Turning Value +1
16 - 18	Turning Value +2
19 - 21	Turning Value +3
22+	Turning Value +4

As you can see, even without much investment in Charisma, it is very easy to get to a +22 modifier. This means that no matter what the result of your D20 roll is, you will always gain the MAXIMUM bonus to the highest hit dice turned value.



Turning Bonuses

               
                      Turn Level     MaxHD      TotalHD
Hallowed                 +0           +2          +0
Eternal Faith            +2           +2          +4
Sacred                   +2           +0          +0
Silver Flame             +0           +0          +6
Insightful Faith         +2           +2          +4
TOD RS Set               +3           +0          +0
Imp Turning(E)           +3           +0          +6
Imp Turning(F)           +1           +0          +0
Past Life: Cleric        +6           +0          +0
Seek Eternal Rest        +4           +0          +0
Aureon's Instruction     +2           +4          +4
Bane of the Restless     +6           +6          +6

Note: The first 4 bonuses are found on items and do not stack, however Insightful Faith will stack with the other bonuses. So, based upon these values, it would seem the best combination for item bonuses would be Eternal Faith, Silver Flame and Insightful Faith. Also, each of the above bonuses is hyperlinked for convenience of reference.

So... what is the maximum Hit Dice an undead mob can have and still be effectively turned?

This is where some confusion comes in with the current system. According to the Wiki it is your "Turning Value" plus the bonus based on the D20 roll and your Charisma modifier (IE: Turn Undead Check Bonus). My understanding then, is that the current formula for Turning Value is: Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus and that your Turn Undead Check Bonus will be added to this to determine your Total Turning Value. Your Total Turning Value must be greater than the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob to successfully "turn" it at all and must be DOUBLE the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob in order to instantly destroy it. (With Mighty Turning if the Total Turning Value is greater than or equal to the Hit Dice of the mob then it is destroyed.)

Here is an example of how this bonus calculates at level 20:
Cleric Level = 20
Turn Level Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Improved Turning Enhancement) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 25
Turn Level Bonus (max) = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Imp Turn Enh) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 3 (TOD RS Set) + 1 (Imp Turn Feat) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 29
Max HD Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 4 (Aureon's Instruction) + 6 (BoTR) = 14
Turn Undead Check Bonus = 4 (as it is easy to max this value as shown above)

Total Turning Value = 20 (Cleric Level) + 25 (29*) (Turn Level Bonus) + 14 (MaxHD Bonus) + 4 (Turn Undead Check Bonus) = 63 (67)

*Most players IMO will not take either the feat or the TOD set bonus so while I have included the max numbers in parenthesis, 63 is where I believe MOST clerics built with turning in mind will land.


So, how many Hit Dice do undead mobs have?

There has been some (limited) discussion around the Hit Dice of undead mobs in DDO, however here is one of the places where DEV contribution would really help. It is said that most undead mobs have Hit Dice equal to their CR. If this is true, then for "endgame" undead (using the Vampire Knights from Mark of Death as an example) you can expect a CR of 41 (per the DDO Wiki: http://ddowiki.com/page/Vampire_Knight) on normal. Assuming a 1:1 ratio for Hit Dice:CR then this would give them 41 Hit Dice, making them (at least in theory) able to be turned. There is, however, no CR listed for Hard or Elite settings. If, like the Reanimated Corpses of Fleshmakers Laboratory, the CR more than doubles for Elite, then they would have over 80 Hit Dice. Or, if the formula to determine Hit Dice is not 1:1 but is say they gain 1.5 Hit Dice for every CR then it would be 62 Hit Dice for the Vampire Knights on Normal (placing it just within reach of what is currently achievable even with multiple past lives and farmed gear).

But wait... there's more!

Per the D&D monster manuals (not sure how this translates into DDO directly), some mobs have Turn Resistance. Essentially what this does is artificially inflate a mobs Hit Dice but only for the purpose of "saving" against Turn Undead Checks. This means they don't actually get any extra HP, but are much more difficult to turn.

Questions for the DEVs

1. How are Hit Dice for undead mobs determined? (is it based off of CR? is there a "standard" formula?)
2. Do mobs have Turn Resistance? (if so, how much do they get? is there a "standard" formula?)

Turn Undead Damage

This roll determines the total number of hit dice you are able to affect with your Turn Undead (assuming your check was successful).

Current Turn Undead Damage Formula = 2d6 + Effective Cleric Level + Total Hit Dice + Charisma Modifier (Paladins get a -3 to level).

Total Hit Dice Bonus = 6 (Silver Flame) + 4 (Insightful Faith) + 6 (Improved Turning Enhancement) + 4 (Aureon's Instruction) + 6 (BoTR) = 26

This would be: 12 (Best Possible Dice Roll) + 45 (49) (Class Level + Turn Level Bonus {see chart above}) + 26 (Total Hit Dice Bonus) + 22 (42) (Charisma Modifier) = 105 (129)

This means that the total number of Hit Dice (among all mobs in the radius of the Turn Undead Check) cannot exceed 105 (or at most 129) in order for the Undead to be effectively "turned". Assuming that Mighty Turning automatically applies the least number of Hit Dice in order to "destroy" them (IE: the Turn Undead Damage roll does not "use up" double the Hit Dice of each mob being affected, but rather only their actual Hit Dice), the cleric will be able to turn (at most) 2 "endgame" undead mobs (or none depending on Hit Dice scaling in Elite and Reaper). One key thing to keep in mind is that EVERY mob that is within the radius of your initial Turn Undead Check cannot be "turned" again. So, if there is a group of 7 undead and you only successfully "turned" 1 of them, the other 6 just also gained immunity to all of your future attempts.

Questions for the DEVs

1. Is my assumption correct regarding how Mighty Turning affects Hit Dice utilization in the Turn Undead Damage roll?
2. Is the immunity gained from being within the radius of an initial Turn Undead Check WAI? (it does follow the rules of PnP) Will it continue to work this way?

Other Considerations

#1

Some non-red name/non-boss mobs are simply warded against turning. This, IMO, should be changed. Given how difficult it is to build and gear a toon to be an effective "turner" (without limiting your function within a group or outside of fighting undead things)... giving any undead mobs blanket immunities to turning feels wrong. If there is currently a mechanic which is granting some mobs Turn Resistance, then (IMO) this (much like Spell Pen is to DCs) is a much better "check" against unmitigated insta-kills via the Turn Undead ability than blanket immunities.

#2

Equipment. Clerics waited a LONG time for bonuses to turning to be consolidated onto one piece of gear. When we finally did get it (Epic Seraphim) it had Sacred and Hallowed instead of Eternal Faith and Silver Flame. Would love to see some more options and it would be really nice to see the DEV team introduce NEW gear enhancements which exceed the thresholds of the old gear enhancements. This could provide one way for Turn Undead to scale into Legendary Elite/Reaper.

#3

Currently, all of the bonuses are additive... maybe one (or two) multiplicative bonuses could be added. For instance, the top turning bonus in the RS tree could say double the player's Turn Level Bonus. Maybe there could an "EPIC TURNING" feat added which doubles both the player's Turn Level Bonus as well as their Total Hit Dice Bonus? This would require some additional AP (and an EPIC FEAT), however could at least make turning possible in every difficulty of game play.

#4

Undead mobs which have deathblock and would otherwise be destroyed but a successful Turn Undead attempt are completely unaffected by the attempt. However, the same mobs are affected by the "cower" affect when they are successfully turned but not destroyed.


Here are some other useful links for further reading:
guardianx2009's "Cleric's Guide to the Turn Undead" (Some data presented above taken from this thread and I really appreciate those who put work into this before me. Thank you guardianx2009! )
DDO Wiki- Turn Undead
Official 3.5e Turn Undead
DnD4 Wiki- Turn Undead
5th ed Turn Undead

[SirValentine]

If you didn't already mention it, Morninglords have Bane of the Restless as an option.

Your Total Turning Value must be greater than the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob to successfully "turn" it at all and must be DOUBLE the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob in order to instantly destroy it.

Right. But as an "other consideration", some champs have Deathblock. If you are able to "destroy" it, your Turn does absolutely nothing, while if you have crappier Turning, you can cause it to cower. So right now, in some cases, you are punished for Turning too well.

One key thing to keep in mind is that EVERY mob that is within the radius of your initial Turn Undead Check cannot be "turned" again. So, if there is a group of 7 undead and you only successfully "turned" 1 of them, the other 6 just also gained immunity to all of your future attempts.

It's a little more nuanced than that. I'm not certain it's permanent. I'm not certain how the immunity interacts with a mixed group of previously-in-range and non-previously-in-range undead. And I'm certain there are (costly) work-arounds; specifically, you can hard-target one specific individual undead and re-attempt your turn without immunity.

Oh, and +1 for the nice work, BTW.

[karatemack]

If you didn't already mention it, Morninglords have Bane of the Restless as an option.

Ty! I had missed that. Edited the OP to include both Bane of the Restless as well as your "other consideration".

[Graskitch]

wow this is so great. thank you, i am going to read all of this more carefully because I am planning to TR my cleric shortly for a 2nd life as a cleric.

was curious - is there any way in ddo for a cleric to COMMAND UNDEAD using their turn undead (compelling them to do your bidding)? or was that only the ability for evil clerics in pnp dungeons and dragons? I know there is an arcane spell for that.

.. but with ravenloft coming out, it would be cool if evil alignments were introduced, especially for clerics. even though they have said that they never would.

[EllisDee37]

To clarify, is charisma 54 (mod 22) the absolute maximum benefit for turning undead, such that any additional charisma beyond 54 gives you no benefit other than just getting more turns?


EDIT: Regarding your max charisma chart, I think you're missing twists of fate, racial past lives, and epic feats. (Great Ability: Charisma.)

[FranOhmsford]

One of the biggest problems with TU is the requirement for it to be basically maxed out in it for it to be viable {now I did say "basically" here not "totally"}.


Now most Clerics aren't going to have a 16 base Cha {You should probably drop that to 14 if you want to provide the Devs with a number that should work on Elite with a standard investment of gear and enhancements} - Clerics are far too Multi-Attribute dependent as is with only Dex really being dumpable at all {ok and Int on a Morninglord or Drow}


Turn Based Gear is extraordinarily rare in the first place {we aren't ALL Crafters even if it is now available that way} and the bonuses on it are ludicrously low comparatively to the bonuses we get to other abilities.
It's also not an ability you want to be swapping gear in for all the time - not like say Disable Device.


I'm not sure about this supposed "double" on Mighty Turning as I've found once I get Mighty Turning I make mobs cower very very very rarely indeed, I'm far more likely to not be able to turn them at all - I have a feeling that that double requirement actually isn't there and if that's true and it is currently bugged and say it was put back in that would = an absolutely massive nerf that TU does not need!


Mobs CRs in Epic Elites AND in Elites throughout the game - Look your Cleric is not gonna be maxed out at Lvl 17, maybe he was maxed out at 15 but at 17 he's back to being one or two short and even then we're talking about max for that level NOT max capped.
You can't just say you can get to 84 at cap so everything's fine {well even that we know not to be fine}.
There's no leeway for a Cleric, especially once we accept that Charisma is a TERTIARY stat for a Cleric! Maxing Charisma = Gimping yourself against everything else but Undead {unless you're a PDK Melee in which case your TU is likely much weaker anyway}.





Here's a simple fix I'm guessing the Devs could put in tomorrow if they wanted....
1) Make TU Wisdom Based
2) Add Allow use of Charisma with TU to Force of Personality Feat so that Paladins who wish to use TU can take Force of Personality, max Cha and be almost as good as a Cleric.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Yeah TU needs HEAVY changes to even be worthy of any consideration beyond early/mid heroics.

First of all...Total number of HD Turned is pathetic...complete garbage and makes TU nearly useless.

# of mobs turned should be based on Cleric/Paladin levels w/o some BS "Total HD affected". THE HD OF THE MOBS SHOULD BE COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO NUMBER OF MOBS AFFECTED. You should affect more enemies the higher your level. As it stands RIGHT NOW the higher your character level and corresponding quest level the FEWER mobs you affect which is plainly stupid.

At the VERY LEAST it it could be something like Total HD of enemies affected = to 1d6+(Character Level * Cleric or Paladin Levels)

So a level 1 Cleric would affect 2-7HD
level 2, 5-10HD
level 3, 10-15HD
all the way up to a level 30 Character, 20 Cleric and 5 levels of Divine ED would be 1d6 + (30*25) = 751-756 Total HD which could be affected. THIS IS WHAT WE ALL SHOULD EXPECT FROM A MAXED OUT GOD-LIKE ENDGAME CHARACTER

[Enoach]

...

Other Considerations

#1

Some non-red name/non-boss mobs are simply warded against turning. This, IMO, should be changed. Given how difficult it is to build and gear a toon to be an effective "turner" (without limiting your function within a group or outside of fighting undead things)... giving any undead mobs blanket immunities to turning feels wrong. If there is currently a mechanic which is granting some mobs Turn Resistance, then (IMO) this (much like Spell Pen is to DCs) is a much better "check" against unmitigated insta-kills via the Turn Undead ability than blanket immunities.

#2

Equipment. Clerics waited a LONG time for bonuses to turning to be consolidated onto one piece of gear. When we finally did get it (Epic Seraphim) it had Sacred and Hallowed instead of Eternal Faith and Silver Flame. Would love to see some more options and it would be really nice to see the DEV team introduce NEW gear enhancements which exceed the thresholds of the old gear enhancements. This could provide one way for Turn Undead to scale into Legendary Elite/Reaper.

#3

Currently, all of the bonuses are additive... maybe one (or two) multiplicative bonuses could be added. For instance, the top turning bonus in the RS tree could say double the player's Turn Level Bonus. Maybe there could an "EPIC TURNING" feat added which doubles both the player's Turn Level Bonus as well as their Total Hit Dice Bonus? This would require some additional AP (and an EPIC FEAT), however could at least make turning possible in every difficulty of game play.

#4

Undead mobs which have deathblock and would otherwise be destroyed but a successful Turn Undead attempt are completely unaffected by the attempt. However, the same mobs are affected by the "cower" affect when they are successfully turned but not destroyed.

Nice post by the way. I think the CR to HD conversion is one of the biggest contributors to TU being stifled, as CR boosting became the go to make mobs tougher with more Hit Points.


Consideration #1
I'm not so sure they are "warded" against turning as it is the CR to HD conversion, or effects that block instant death. My feeling is if something does prevent Undead from Dying but they were successfully Turned they should still cower. I think this is something that is missed on the "Mighty Turn"/"Double HD" calculation

Consideration #2
I liked the explanation you put about gear as it can be confusing on how some effects are additive and some don't stack with each other. I actually have two of the effects on an item, but this is because of crafting. Finding named/random gear with that setup has not occurred for me at least.

Consideration #3
I'm not so sure on multiplicative bonuses. But I do agree that resolving the issue to allow a fundamental ability for a Cleric/Paladin to at least be effective as a means of Crowd Control if not AoE death effect. It is limited to Undead.

Consideration #4
I totally agree with this. If the turn is successful and a non-Boss mob would be turned but is somehow protected from being destroyed it should "cower". I think the fix here is making the "cower" part work as a Fear Effect - Similar to Cold Touch. The Destroy part can still be classified as instant death. Phantasmal Killer works similar to how I think it should work the difference being they are handled separately instead of linear.

To clarify, is charisma 54 (mod 22) the absolute maximum benefit for turning undead, such that any additional charisma beyond 54 gives you no benefit other than just getting more turns?

Actually since you need a 22 you only need a +21 Charisma Modifier to get the Maximum Bonus on the "Most Powerful" part of the formula since the lowest you can roll on a 1d20 is 1. However, it is the second part of the formula that additional Charisma is still beneficial. So while at a point you will always be Maxed on one part, you can still get more.

...
I'm not sure about this supposed "double" on Mighty Turning as I've found once I get Mighty Turning I make mobs cower very very very rarely indeed, I'm far more likely to not be able to turn them at all - I have a feeling that that double requirement actually isn't there and if that's true and it is currently bugged and say it was put back in that would = an absolutely massive nerf that TU does not need!


....

Here's a simple fix I'm guessing the Devs could put in tomorrow if they wanted....
1) Make TU Wisdom Based
2) Add Allow use of Charisma with TU to Force of Personality Feat so that Paladins who wish to use TU can take Force of Personality, max Cha and be almost as good as a Cleric.

With Deathblock/Deathward on undead they appear to become immune to Turn Undead. My observation is because it is being treated as an Instant Death effect and not a Fear effect. I have run both a Cleric with Mighty Turning and without. Mobs that are protected from instant death effects don't appear to ever cower when you have mighty turning, but without it they will (outside of Red/Purple that is)

As for the simple fix suggestion. No switching TU to Wisdom is not the right fix. There is a reason this is Charisma based and it has to do with what Charisma represents.

[karatemack]

To clarify, is charisma 54 (mod 22) the absolute maximum benefit for turning undead, such that any additional charisma beyond 54 gives you no benefit other than just getting more turns?


EDIT: Regarding your max charisma chart, I think you're missing twists of fate, racial past lives, and epic feats. (Great Ability: Charisma.)

Updated the OP to include ToF, RPLs and Epic Feats to Charisma chart (thanks EllisDee37!).

Yes, my understanding is that +4 is the maximum Turn Undead Check bonus you can achieve. So, only when considering the Turn Undead Check bonus, anything over 54 CHA is a waste. Now... if a DEV wanted to confirm or correct any of this info... it would be helpful...

As Enoach pointed out, a higher charisma modifier will still affect the Turn Undead Damage number.

[Cantor]

I'm not sure about this supposed "double" on Mighty Turning as I've found once I get Mighty Turning I make mobs cower very very very rarely indeed, I'm far more likely to not be able to turn them at all -

You misunderstand what mighty turning does. You should never cower with mighty turning as it makes a cower count as a kill. As was pointed out already, this means you can't cower a champ with deathward as it tries to kill but they are immune.

[Livmo]

Based on in-game play I disagree with some of the statements about TU in this thread and the other. The OP here has put together a nice guide and I feel that folks should give some thought to it. Why? Because my in-game experience does not match some of the statements made in the threads, but do understand I'm playing the game wrong (my focus is fun).

Here is the wiki link to Turn Undead, http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead to review with the guide.

I still turn and stun in epics. Although I'm wrapping up the Unyielding Sentinal ED, please note the particulars I circled in red. I haven't played a pure cleric or paladin in a while and have been using TU on this toon and sometimes its very effective.

Moar food for thought, a nice stun is very effective with Hurl. Although Hurl has a long cool down, it's not my only golf club. However, given the amount of TUs I have, I can re-stun or turn while Hurl comes off cool down. Sometimes I plan to stun again and whamo the undead are turned.

[Renvar]

Here is an example of how this bonus calculates at level 20:
Cleric Level = 20
Turn Level Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Improved Turning Enhancement) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 25
Turn Level Bonus (max) = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Imp Turn Enh) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 3 (TOD RS Set) + 1 (Imp Turn Feat) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 29
Max HD Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 4 (Aureon's Instruction) + 6 (BoTR) = 14
Turn Undead Check Bonus = 4 (as it is easy to max this value as shown above)

How are you getting Aureon's instruction (which is a deity only for ebberon characters) combined with Bane of The Restless, which is a Morninglord enhancement? Or am I misunderstanding the acronym BoTR?

P.S. Great chart and discussion topic. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

[FranOhmsford]

As for the simple fix suggestion. No switching TU to Wisdom is not the right fix. There is a reason this is Charisma based and it has to do with what Charisma represents.

What?

Wisdom is Willpower!

Turn Undead is about having the Willpower to turn/destroy them!

Force of Personality as an option? Fine but it should be an option for Paladins NOT make Clerics boost a stat they have no other use for when Wisdom is right there!


Do Fighters need to boost Dex up to hit?
Do Wizards need to boost Con to summon devils and demons to fight for them?
Do Rogues - OK yes Rogues for some reason need Int, Wis AND Dex when really Search should be Wisdom just like Spot and Disable should be Dex just like Open Locks!


Clerics are Multi-Attribute Dependent:
A Battle Cleric needs Str, Wis, Con, Cha and Int of at least 10 and remember completely dumping Dex for a Cleric does mean terrible reflex saves as there's no way you can fit in Insightful Reflexes Feat and even if you could your Int isn't that much higher than your Dex!
A Caster Cleric can reduce Str and get a bit higher Dex but he can't completely dump Str unless he wants to be constantly worrying about getting enfeebled. He still really needs a base of 10-12.


Charisma being needed for TU wasn't a thing before 3rd Ed. either - Nor was Wisdom for that matter but WISDOM IS THEIR MAIN STAT AND IF IT SHOULD BE ANY STAT FOR TU IT WOULD BE WISDOM!

[FranOhmsford]

Based on in-game play I disagree with some of the statements about TU in this thread and the other. The OP here has put together a nice guide and I feel that folks should give some thought to it. Why? Because my in-game experience does not match some of the statements made in the threads, but do understand I'm playing the game wrong (my focus is fun).

Here is the wiki link to Turn Undead, http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead to review with the guide.

I still turn and stun in epics. Although I'm wrapping up the Unyielding Sentinal ED, please note the particulars I circled in red. I haven't played a pure cleric or paladin in a while and have been using TU on this toon and sometimes its very effective.

Moar food for thought, a nice stun is very effective with Hurl. Although Hurl has a long cool down, it's not my only golf club. However, given the amount of TUs I have, I can re-stun or turn while Hurl comes off cool down. Sometimes I plan to stun again and whamo the undead are turned.

1) You've hidden the number of Epic Levels on your character sheet - Guessing 10?

2) Epic? Epic what? Epic Normal?

3) King's Forest slayer or Orchard EEs?

4) How many ERs?

[Enoach]

What?

Wisdom is Willpower!

Turn Undead is about having the Willpower to turn/destroy them!

Force of Personality as an option? Fine but it should be an option for Paladins NOT make Clerics boost a stat they have no other use for when Wisdom is right there!


Do Fighters need to boost Dex up to hit?
Do Wizards need to boost Con to summon devils and demons to fight for them?
Do Rogues - OK yes Rogues for some reason need Int, Wis AND Dex when really Search should be Wisdom just like Spot and Disable should be Dex just like Open Locks!


Clerics are Multi-Attribute Dependent:
A Battle Cleric needs Str, Wis, Con, Cha and Int of at least 10 and remember completely dumping Dex for a Cleric does mean terrible reflex saves as there's no way you can fit in Insightful Reflexes Feat and even if you could your Int isn't that much higher than your Dex!
A Caster Cleric can reduce Str and get a bit higher Dex but he can't completely dump Str unless he wants to be constantly worrying about getting enfeebled. He still really needs a base of 10-12.


Charisma being needed for TU wasn't a thing before 3rd Ed. either - Nor was Wisdom for that matter but WISDOM IS THEIR MAIN STAT AND IF IT SHOULD BE ANY STAT FOR TU IT WOULD BE WISDOM!

I disagree, TU has always been about the Presence as rebuking Undead is not about forcing ones will but about establishing Dominance through fear. Something granted by the deity or ethos being followed.

Yes, Clerics have multiple attributes to power their abilities. You can min/max many different builds and doing so means sacrificing something for something else. Currently in DDO unlike PnP those sacrifices are not necessarily significant enough.

I played Basic, Advanced and 3.5. Since the rules of DDO are established more or less on 3.5 I don't see making it easier on Clerics as a good reason to change the rules. Especially since I'm not convinced having TU based on Charisma is the reason why TU is not as effective in Epics as it should be.

As a note...
If a Fighter wants to be good at using a ranged weapon they will need Dexterity for To-Hit

You wizard example is humorous since most builds will Max Intelligence and Constitution and then use what ever points are left over depending on flavor. In PnP a decent Dexterity score was needed for Range Touch attacks but we don't have that with these types of spells in DDO.

Now I'm not saying every rule should be 3.5 or that every rule/system is 3.5 based in DDO. What I'm saying is changing TU to Wisdom based does not solve the problem it actually compounds it by making it harder on the other class that utilizes this ability. It also in my opinion takes away the "presence" aspect of what TU Rebuke actually is.

Now if we were talking controlling undead (something we cannot do in DDO with TU) then yes maybe the Will aspect would make sense.

1) You've hidden the number of Epic Levels on your character sheet - Guessing 10?

2) Epic? Epic what? Epic Normal?

3) King's Forest slayer or Orchard EEs?

4) How many ERs?

1) I agree looking at the sheet it appears to be Warlock 18/Cleric 1/Fighter 1 and Epic 10
2) Ummm, As a Cleric on Epic Hard in the Double Red Dragon Raid I actually had the highest kill count thanks to all the skeleton spawns . I did this while healing the tanks on the Big Dragon. Yes I have 3 cleric past lives and was a Morninglord Cleric, but I was not invested in Radiant, at that time I was using War Priest.
3) If you only look at TU for the Destroy part you will be disappointed. If however, you deem the Stun part as effective and are willing to use Dispel magic spells on a large target it an be a very effective method of reducing party damage
4) I don't know how many ERs Livmo has, but I have 12 on my cleric for Epic Completionist.

[Renvar]

I disagree, TU has always been about the Presence as rebuking Undead is not about forcing ones will but about establishing Dominance through fear. Something granted by the deity or ethos being followed.

Yes, Clerics have multiple attributes to power their abilities. You can min/max many different builds and doing so means sacrificing something for something else. Currently in DDO unlike PnP those sacrifices are not necessarily significant enough.

I played Basic, Advanced and 3.5. Since the rules of DDO are established more or less on 3.5 I don't see making it easier on Clerics as a good reason to change the rules. Especially since I'm not convinced having TU based on Charisma is the reason why TU is not as effective in Epics as it should be.

Agree with all of this. The "use Wisdom instead" has no lore or rules basis. (It is the same reason Pallys use Charisma too, and FvS use Charisma for their spell points and spell level casting ability). Charisma is about your force of presence and ability to dominate others with your physicality, voice, and sheer presence. Like a peacock puffing up it's feathers to scare away larger game.

The "use wisdom" argument is just one for people who want easier builds and less challenge and fewer trade offs. /not signed.

Fix the mechanics issues. The stat is not the problem. As already shown, you don't have to sacrifice wisdom to get the needed charisma.

[FranOhmsford]

I disagree, TU has always been about the Presence as rebuking Undead is not about forcing ones will but about establishing Dominance through fear. Something granted by the deity or ethos being followed.

If it's about granted by the deity then Charisma still has nothing to do with it - You as the cleric are the channel for your deity's power and Wisdom is your main stat because again you need the strength of will to survive being a conduit for your deity's power with your sanity intact!

Yes, Clerics have multiple attributes to power their abilities. You can min/max many different builds and doing so means sacrificing something for something else. Currently in DDO unlike PnP those sacrifices are not necessarily significant enough.

This has nothing to do with min/maxing - In fact it's the complete opposite as min/maxing is what I do NOT want to do!

Min/Maxing is something that prior to MMOs was always considered BAD!

Yet somehow in MMOs it's the expectation!

Clerics are not just healers or just casters or just melees, they are ALL THREE! Like Bards they have multiple abilities!

Taking two or even one of those abilities away from them basically gimps them as if you want to be just a caster why aren't you playing one of the multiple classes that cater to that?
If you want to be just a melee there are at least 4 classes and hundreds of builds that cater to that too!
And if you want to be a Healer well you can equip your Rogue with Heal Scrolls and play Healer in DDO!

I played Basic, Advanced and 3.5. Since the rules of DDO are established more or less on 3.5 I don't see making it easier on Clerics as a good reason to change the rules. Especially since I'm not convinced having TU based on Charisma is the reason why TU is not as effective in Epics as it should be.

Reducing the multi-attribute dependency will of course boost the effectiveness of NOT JUST TU but all a Cleric's abilities!

Charisma would literally become a dumpstat - It is only needed for TU as is

This would allow Clerics to concentrate more points into Str, Con, Dex and Int - If they've got any sense they've already maxed Wisdom anyway so no removing Cha as a stat tax wouldn't necessarily buff your Wisdom, WHAT IT WOULD DO IS ALLOW YOU TO MAKE THAT 8 DEX INTO 12, THAT 12 CON INTO 14 ETC.

As a note...
If a Fighter wants to be good at using a ranged weapon they will need Dexterity for To-Hit

I deliberately said Melee and hang on, isn't that what Bow Strength is for? Or how about just taking 6 Ranger Levels?

You wizard example is humorous since most builds will Max Intelligence and Constitution and then use what ever points are left over depending on flavor. In PnP a decent Dexterity score was needed for Range Touch attacks but we don't have that with these types of spells in DDO.

EXACTLY!

Wizards just need Int and Con!
Clerics need Wis, Con, Cha, Str, Int, Dex {Yeah you're gonna dump Dex and have a useless Reflex Save because otherwise you're gonna be gimped elsewhere!}.

Clerics can't even fit in the 3 must have skills - Concentration, Heal and Spellcraft unless they get Int to minimum 10 points and then only if Human, anyother race requires base 12 to max those 3 skills AND NOTHING ELSE, NO UMD, NO DIPLO OR BLUFF, NO POINTS IN JUMP, NOT EVEN THE 1 POINT IN TUMBLE!

And no I'm not counting Tomes because the Base Class should be able to max at least their required skills without Tomes or gimping themselves elsewhere!

Now I'm not saying every rule should be 3.5 or that every rule/system is 3.5 based in DDO. What I'm saying is changing TU to Wisdom based does not solve the problem it actually compounds it by making it harder on the other class that utilizes this ability. It also in my opinion takes away the "presence" aspect of what TU Rebuke actually is.

Really?

Harder on Paladins?

So why exactly would a Paladin not take Force of Personality already even without this bonus added to it?

Paladins DUMP Wisdom! They only need 8 base + a +6 item to cast ALL Spells!

They generally have very high Charisma so Force of Personality is a no brainer!

This wouldn't make it harder on Paladins - It WOULD make it EASIER on Clerics!

Now if we were talking controlling undead (something we cannot do in DDO with TU) then yes maybe the Will aspect would make sense.

Why do you think Turning and Controlling would use two different stats, they are literally the same ability just used differently!

It's like saying Stone to Flesh and Flesh to Stone would use two different stats!






EDIT:
And remember that unless Pure TU is reduced in power anyway so every level you spend in say Fighter or Paladin hurts your ability to TU!

[Livmo]

1) You've hidden the number of Epic Levels on your character sheet - Guessing 10?

2) Epic? Epic what? Epic Normal?

3) King's Forest slayer or Orchard EEs?

4) How many ERs?

• This toon has 0 ETRs ~ you see that because he is level 30. If you watch this video from the other week, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LAxgrHV0ZA, you will see this toon in action with no wings. An ER will give you wings.
• I don't run Epic Normal. EE and sometimes EH.
• No I primarily raid on this toon. You will see me post raids on Sarlona with this toon. Mostly running new content aside from raids.
• Already answered

I rolled my mouse over the stars, so you can see its a 1st life 32 point build.

[Livmo]

1) I agree looking at the sheet it appears to be Warlock 18/Cleric 1/Fighter 1 and Epic 10
2) Ummm, As a Cleric on Epic Hard in the Double Red Dragon Raid I actually had the highest kill count thanks to all the skeleton spawns . I did this while healing the tanks on the Big Dragon. Yes I have 3 cleric past lives and was a Morninglord Cleric, but I was not invested in Radiant, at that time I was using War Priest.
3) If you only look at TU for the Destroy part you will be disappointed. If however, you deem the Stun part as effective and are willing to use Dispel magic spells on a large target it an be a very effective method of reducing party damage
4) I don't know how many ERs Livmo has, but I have 12 on my cleric for Epic Completionist.

No past lives on the toon, but I would like to do this same build on another server after I get 3x Morninglord and 3x Cleic past lives:

Morninglord:

• Iconic Past Life Stance: +10 Light and +10 Alignment Spell Power per stack of this Past Life.
• Passive Bonus: +3 Positive Spell Power per stack of this Past Life.

Cleric (for my tenticles, but even moar TUs would be nice + DC boost):

• You were a Cleric in a past life. You occasionally feel the presence of the divine. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +1 to the DC's of your Conjuration spells, +1 Turn Undead attempt per rest, and you Turn Undead as if you were two levels higher. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

[Enoach]

...Charisma would literally become a dumpstat - It is only needed for TU as is

...
I deliberately said Melee and hang on, isn't that what Bow Strength is for? Or how about just taking 6 Ranger Levels?

...
Really?

Harder on Paladins?

So why exactly would a Paladin not take Force of Personality already even without this bonus added to it?

Paladins DUMP Wisdom! They only need 8 base + a +6 item to cast ALL Spells!

They generally have very high Charisma so Force of Personality is a no brainer!

This wouldn't make it harder on Paladins - It WOULD make it EASIER on Clerics!

...

The rest I've already explained why I disagree with you. But I want to touch on these items above.

Actually No Charisma is not a dump stat of clerics and only used for TU. There are other abilities that utilize charisma. We obviously play this class differently so we won't agree.

Force of Personality only works with Will Save. A Paladin with enough levels is already getting a bonus of their Charisma Modifier to "All Saves". Replacing the Wisdom Modifier for the Charisma Modifier does give a nice bonus to a save. But when you are already 90+ without it at your final build at what benefit is making it 120+? Personally, I recommend against Force of Personality for a Paladin simply because their overall saves are already very high. In many cases turning to Spell Resistance or Spell Absorption for the few places a much higher Save is needed is a better investment for builds that use the paladin class for saves.

If you base the Wisdom needs only on Spell Casting you are correct a paladin with an adjusted wisdom of 14 is all that is needed to cast spells especially since DC casting does not have depth. But as you pointed out with Force of Personality. A decent investment in Wisdom can be a benefit with Will Saves.

Next on Bow Strength - That is added damage not "to-hit". A fighter could go Dexterity based with the options available via feats, multi-classing or even using racial features trading strength for Dexterity for example.

You list a lot of attributes needed. I disagree that they are all needed for a single build. I also build differently then most in that I don't usually build my cleric with attributes at Max, instead I go for a more generalist approach. I have enough characters that specialize in one area or another. I like how I build my cleric in that I can step into many different roles as the party needs.