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  1. #381

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    Quote Originally Posted by changelingamuck View Post
    emphasis added (also, this whole post isn't all *directly* in response to this quote)

    Assassinate is currently working like this and used to work like this before the 'mob obliviousness to dying friends bug' started. The reports that successful assassinates are automatically triggering aggro are incorrect. I've been testing it. I've assassinated plenty of mobs close to other mobs without triggering aggro automatically (with a way over-level character for the content tested). The nearby mobs start their search behavior after one of them is successfully assassinated.

    I think the problem is that the bonus to spot/listen scores that mobs are now getting when their search behavior starts is just set to an extremely-too-high value/scaling according to quest level/mob challenge rating/or whatever. So, it seems like they're automatically aggro-ing when they're really just very quickly doing a spot/listen check [this is SUPPOSED to happen and is a BUG FIX] and that check happens to succeed in at-level content because of too-high spot/listen bonuses, and then they aggro, and it seems like they're automatically aggro-ing as a response to the assassinate.

    Also, if they're right next to the assassin, they start blindly attacking the spot where the assassinate happened (right next to them)--something that is SUPPOSED to happen and is FIXED behavior--and then they usually knock the assassin out of stealth which prevents double-assassinating.

    It seems to me that, in order to get double-assassinates working again, all they have to do is appropriately adjust the spot/listen score scaling of the mobs and possibly institute a very short delay after the initial assassinate before the mobs activate their searching behavior.

    I don't think that's a large amount of tweaking and then we'll have BOTH double-assassinates working again AND mob AI that isn't utterly eye-roll-worthy, reducing gameplay to lower complexity than playing Whack-A-Mole... Some will only be happy if we go back to effortless archery and assassinating and skipping vast swaths of content with invisi-cheesing; but I'm sure a lot of people will be happier. Hell, at least in Whack-A-Mole, the opponents do something.

    As for pulling mobs with the Assassin's Trick enhancement, I really don't think we were supposed to be able to emulate bluff-pulling (something that's supposed to require gear and skill point investment) with an enhancement that costs 1 AP.

    [And, unrelated to assassinating, it seems like the radius within which mobs can 'communicate' aggro to one another probably needs to be lowered a little.]
    I tested around a bit with a level 16 assassin, HS/MS around 50 and invisible in the Korthos wilderness. Mobs are typically CR .5 or even .25! I was getting spotted if my toon assassinated while another mob was facing her close by. Aggro always seemed to happen instantly, even when they were facing different directions. The did the 'searching' behavior but could not find her.
    Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links. LONG LIVE STEALTH!
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  2. #382
    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    around 50 and invisible in the Korthos wilderness
    this is good actually. means it's easily fixed. one zero too many in the spot check


    edit: well, that, and the radius
    Last edited by Eryhn; 01-03-2017 at 04:03 PM.

  3. #383
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    This last weekend hubby and I finished running the non flagging quests in the desert, we also ran And the Dead Shall Rise, Tomb of the Unhallowed, Tomb of the Forbidden, Made to Order, Relic of a Sovereign Past, Diplomatic Impunity, Framework, Eyes of Stone, A Cry for Help and a Cabal For one. Mostly HE, some HH, he was still on his ranger/barb and me on my arty2/rogue mech. We only encountered aggro issues in Framework and A Cabal for One, but it almost made sense for Framework being that there aren't any walls or what not to prevent a cry of alarm from aggro-ing a whole area. A Cabal for One had guys come running from way down the hall and around distant corners to charge us before we even reached the shrine. Only the mobs that spawn on top of buildings or behind doors really stayed in place.

    Mostly I can't figure out any pattern to what causes the aggro to go through mobs like chain lightning that can go through walls and doors and floors/ceilings. But so far we haven't had too much trouble because we've always slain everything that moves as we go anyway. I'm only commenting on the ranged aggro not stealth in general or assassin issues because I no longer have an assassin and can't test that play-style right now.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
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  4. #384
    Developer Torc's Avatar
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    Default Aggro/Stealth answers and upcoming tweeks

    Quote Originally Posted by Raederle View Post
    Speaking as a programmer that would be a nightmare to maintain, and is not going to happen.

    Personally? @Torc

    0) Keep the pack aggro mechanic but continue tweaks to make assassins/stealth playable again.

    1) Scale back bluff slightly until the highest levels, and give it a forgiveness range like disable traps. Young rogues do not need perfect disable, open, hide, move silently just to function so why bluff?

    2) Fix shiv/bluff/deception to allow sneak attack damage on red names. We can live with the no turning bit, but cutting out half a solo rogue's boss dps is just wrong. Likewise a high sneak ranger. If you need to tone down rogue packs, make it so if YOUR shiv/bluff/deception isn't on the boss, no SA damage. That would presume that they stick separately. There's no effort to tone down warlock packs so why beat up rogues?

    3) Fix traps, our tried and true method of splitting groups up was web and hypnosis and some damage off the top, all broken now, even with hella good disable.

    4) Fix single/double assassinate so that it is spot based, not listen based. If they can see their friend die, HUNT KILL MODE. But if they all have their backs turned, and continue to do so for a few seconds, it's stealthy and non aggro. If on an attempt for a double kill one fails, HUNT KILL MODE. That might or might not fix double assassinate, currently broken at least in epic content. That too should be fixed, now that the aggro mechanism means I only get one chance on the ubiquitous pack of 10 anyway.

    5) ======>>> Eliminate the FINGER OF GOD. I'm OK with an alerted pack who saw their friend get hurt roaming around looking for me with elevated spot/listen levels. I am not OK with them spotting my 72 hide/move silent in a level 20 epic hard (CR30 odd) FROM THREE ROOMS and TWO WALLS AWAY, again and again and again every 10 seconds like clockwork. Why the heck did I invest in maxxed skill, maxxed gear, and destiny twist slots for this?

    Last - If I can catch one of the pack now racing around the halls alone, sneak up behind him, and stabbity, why oh why should he be immune to assassinate then? He's busy racing down to where his buddy two rooms away is shouting OVER HERE because 8 seconds ago I was there and the FINGER OF GOD told all his friends so.

    Put all this together and playing an assassin rogue will be harder than pre U33.2 but still playable. Ignore this and I'll do some of the other toons for a while, but the one advantage DDO has over all the other MMO's out there, a real stealth game, is gone.

    0> That is the plan. There is still a bit to do here and we'll actively be making changes until we feel both systems are working well.

    1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

    2> All the stuff that exposed creatures to sneak attack damage should still work the same. If that's not the case please post or pm me an example of it failing to do so and we'll try to get it fixed ASAP.

    3> Rogue traps haven't been touched in to long. /agreed. Can't give you a time frame on this yet, to busy with stealth/aggro stuff plus reaper and unannounced "stuff", but it's on my list.

    4> We are currently testing monsters ignoring aggro share if their friend was "quick" killed by a stealth-ed player while their not facing them. It's looking good so far.

    5> So I'd love some more details here. Is this dungeon alert you have an issue with or monster perception in general even when no alert is present? The issue I've currently been investigating is outside the dungeon alert system, and it seems that sometimes monsters looking for me while I'm stealth-ed will sometimes get a position update on me that seems....illogically accurate. Seems to happen more often if I actually move far away to which is counter intuitive as well. I'll figure it out eventually but if you know a location that this happens 100% let me know.

    6> Assassinate was original designed for unaggro'd monsters. Still, looking at this from two situations....

    A> Using assassinate in active combat with my party: Might be a big power boost? Shrug. Assassinate was originally meant to be a reward for sneaking up on a monster clean. Using it as a general combat skill is worth looking at but would have to be reviewed in the general combat dps track, so it's a bit muddier. Still worth a look.

    B> Monsters are hunting me in stealth but aren't actively on me (red eye) or anyone else: This might be more what your hoping to see addressed and effects solo stealth play more. I think part of the problem is the bug, finger of god thing mentioned above?

    Some General Comments:

    -The aggro assist radius will be shrinking soon to cut down on some "interesting" monster chain reactions. Other steps may be taken, we'll see how it goes.

    -We will be taking a look at stealth character game play and trying to find a balance. This will take time (sorry), but it's a complex system, and globally effects content. This will probably take a few iterations to nail it down over several patches, but we intent to steadily punch away at it. I hope to get the "clean kills on monsters if their friends not looking" in pretty soon. We got a lot more know how back on the team since the new company, so expect things to change, even if little by little.

    - Please post feedback on bluff difficulty, what's you think a fair bluff score vs target is... hows the duration, etc.

    -Torc

  5. #385

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    0> That is the plan. There is still a bit to do here and we'll actively be making changes until we feel both systems are working well.

    1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

    2> All the stuff that exposed creatures to sneak attack damage should still work the same. If that's not the case please post or pm me an example of it failing to do so and we'll try to get it fixed ASAP.

    3> Rogue traps haven't been touched in to long. /agreed. Can't give you a time frame on this yet, to busy with stealth/aggro stuff plus reaper and unannounced "stuff", but it's on my list.

    4> We are currently testing monsters ignoring aggro share if their friend was "quick" killed by a stealth-ed player while their not facing them. It's looking good so far.

    5> So I'd love some more details here. Is this dungeon alert you have an issue with or monster perception in general even when no alert is present? The issue I've currently been investigating is outside the dungeon alert system, and it seems that sometimes monsters looking for me while I'm stealth-ed will sometimes get a position update on me that seems....illogically accurate. Seems to happen more often if I actually move far away to which is counter intuitive as well. I'll figure it out eventually but if you know a location that this happens 100% let me know.

    6> Assassinate was original designed for unaggro'd monsters. Still, looking at this from two situations....

    A> Using assassinate in active combat with my party: Might be a big power boost? Shrug. Assassinate was originally meant to be a reward for sneaking up on a monster clean. Using it as a general combat skill is worth looking at but would have to be reviewed in the general combat dps track, so it's a bit muddier. Still worth a look.

    B> Monsters are hunting me in stealth but aren't actively on me (red eye) or anyone else: This might be more what your hoping to see addressed and effects solo stealth play more. I think part of the problem is the bug, finger of god thing mentioned above?

    Some General Comments:

    -The aggro assist radius will be shrinking soon to cut down on some "interesting" monster chain reactions. Other steps may be taken, we'll see how it goes.

    -We will be taking a look at stealth character game play and trying to find a balance. This will take time (sorry), but it's a complex system, and globally effects content. This will probably take a few iterations to nail it down over several patches, but we intent to steadily punch away at it. I hope to get the "clean kills on monsters if their friends not looking" in pretty soon. We got a lot more know how back on the team since the new company, so expect things to change, even if little by little.

    - Please post feedback on bluff difficulty, what's you think a fair bluff score vs target is... hows the duration, etc.

    -Torc
    I am glad that this is being tweaked. Assassinating should not automatically draw aggro. A mob sees his buddy quietly slump to the ground; he then needs to investigate; then, maybe, begins looking for the cause. The insta-alert is not accurate unless assassinate is on par with screaming & clubbing!

    I tested in Korthos wilderness with a level 16 assassin splash (Prowler) who remains invisible when assassinating. I was getting spotted by CR.5 mobs when I assassinated their friends in plane sight. The argument is, "hey, they saw their buddy get killed so they should go ape looking for the assailant= massive SPOT skill burst." See above paragraph why this is not correct. Plus, I Was Invisible on a CR.5 mob!!!! HS/MS around 50.

    Bluff pulling mobs is hardly a common practice of assassins. If you can assassinate it, you do that. Bluff makes you vulnerable since they are aggroed and hence you can't assassinate=end of stealth. I was pulling mobs with assassin's trick (which was, clearly, not WAI) and then, right before they got to me--bluff then assassinate. If bluff is on cooldown as a pull technique, you can't do this.

    Bluff is a great active combat skill for ranged builds more than melee since the former do not suffer from their combat sequence by activating the skill. Shiv of course is key but if bluff is now tougher to activate, assassins just got squishier. (note that Assassin's trick, in the melee assassin tree, works better for ranged builds since it also does not interrupt their attack chain, unlike melees).
    Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links. LONG LIVE STEALTH!
    Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main) and some others typically parked at some level to help guildies and other players


  6. #386

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    Some General Comments:

    -The aggro assist radius will be shrinking soon to cut down on some "interesting" monster chain reactions. Other steps may be taken, we'll see how it goes.
    Any chance you can have doors/ceilings/floors block said radius regardless of radius size? (alternatively make sure at least one caster in the secondary and further mob groups is of wizard/sorc/bard level high enough to cast the level 3 spell Clairvoyance/audience in order to see/hear through walls). Actually having mob radius scale across levels isn't that far off from game lore... though in theory mob clairvoyance capabilities should be set per quest by quest design when it makes sense instead of a generic across the board setting. But I guess for ease of implementation...

    Glad to have you back Torc. Hoping you're also on-the-side thinking of a devious and cunning Ravenloft expansion raid(s).
    Last edited by Gratch; 01-03-2017 at 08:22 PM.
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  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.
    I haven't had the time to play DDO on my sneaky acrobat since 33.2 but I do want to comment on bluff. I can't recall exact bluff scores I've had, but even with +22/+11 LGS item, full ranks in bluff and a decent CHA score I have never landed a bluff on a red-name in EE content, or I can't recall ever doing so. Trash lands easily, but solo-pulling trash is something no one does since it just takes forever. Bluff's pulling ability just doesn't have a serious use right now in endgame content cause it doesn't really work on anything you'd want to pull and there are a ton of quests where it doesn't work at all (due to the level layout or due to the "patrol" AI, e.g. end of slavers pt3.)

    This isn't a recent trend either, EE red-names have always been nearly impossible to bluff since u14.

  8. #388
    Hero, Mo Bro H'ro, & MB Super-H'ro ComicRelief's Avatar
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    Default Not Assassination, But...

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    *snip*
    5> So I'd love some more details here. Is this dungeon alert you have an issue with or monster perception in general even when no alert is present? The issue I've currently been investigating is outside the dungeon alert system, and it seems that sometimes monsters looking for me while I'm stealth-ed will sometimes get a position update on me that seems....illogically accurate. Seems to happen more often if I actually move far away to which is counter intuitive as well. I'll figure it out eventually but if you know a location that this happens 100% let me know.

    *snip*
    OK, so, not 'assassinate' but aggro in general on this point. I was running "Cry for Help" (over the weekend, HE on L16 rogue) and got to the doorway just before the winding corridor down to the air-jet, high wall blade, and ceiling spike trap area. It seems that simply OPENING THE (entrance) DOOR (at the top of some stairs) was enough to aggro ALL of the "non-inactive*" mobs from down past the winding corridor, near the trap area. It's hard to judge distance, but I would guess the bend in the corridor is roughly 50-ft (possibly farther) away from the entrance door. I was not stealthed at the time, but that's still an awful long distance to be able to "hear" me (as they definitely could not "see" me). There was also no DA (of any color) at the time.

    Right at the bend? Sure, I can see that as being a reasonable distance, but not from the top of the stairs, by the entrance door.


    ____
    * There are (2) inactive Jariliths down by the trap area, which only activate upon getting within a few feet of them.

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  9. #389
    Community Member DANTEIL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    We got a lot more know how back on the team since the new company, so expect things to change, even if little by little.
    Hooray for know how!! Looking forward to seeing the payoffs...

  10. #390
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    My thoughts have always been that Assassinates should not draw aggro unless they are in the viewable arc of another mob.

    I was in Shavarath, and there is this trench where there are three Fiendish Trolls in two groups: two on one end of the trench, and a lone one on the other side. The groups have their backs to one another. I drop down, Assassinate one mob in the one group, and it immediately aggros the other group and/or mob (depending on which group I hit). That really shouldn't happen.

    That being said, I like having a more realistic aggro mechanic. If I';m stealthing, I think it is WAY more immersive to hide in teh shadows waiting for a couple of patrolling mobs to separate enough to take them out one at a time. Problem is that - in my opinion - you take out one, stuff from far away makes a bee-line right towards you. So if it is a matter of simple radius, tighten it up a notch.

    Or, alternatively, instead of them being aggroed right away, have them go into searching mode. That way you can back off into the shadows, and wait it out. That, I think, would be a good compromise.

    And there has to be a way to make it such that a range toon doesn't draw down all sorts of mobs for firing an arrow.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    People on the forums seem to think that their experience, with their builds, is the same experience as everyone else, with different preferences and/or different builds.
    Some do sure, including you, and to be honest it can be difficult not to, considering it is our experience with the game we remember, not other peoples memories. They get expressed here and people respond to them, assuming peoples experiences in any way is a silly idea.

    Just to clarify you were earlier stating; that this patch broke assassins, and if you couldn't see that you weren't or haven't ever been an assassin, and that those people were in no way effected by the previous iteration of the aggro system, that assumes peoples positions of play and assumes they never noticed or were never effected by the ai aggro mechanics, when often their experience would indicate otherwise.

    Similarly, I was shocked to learn someone who had played for 7 or more years had never true ressed any of their characters (I was inherently assuming a certain level of game play of all players), being that I so often play my main, the TR system being part of the natural grind system and given the benefits of doing so. From there I asked him how such a thing was possible and he (and others) explained their experience, being a public communicative medium, it seems not only common practice to do so, but it is the exact place for it. What gets us all nowhere is using flawed or double edged arguments in an attempt to shut people down and/or polarise the argumentative positions.

    You have plenty of valid arguments, we would all benefit (again, including you) if you stuck to those instead of falling into these problematic positions that are easy to cut down, it would be great if everyone could too, but we can only address these things as they come up.
    Last edited by Chimmy; 01-03-2017 at 10:50 PM.

  12. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc
    The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.
    - May I ask, powerful next to which class of abilities?
    there are several ways to obliterate a red alert worth of LE (u32) mobs in the exact or less time a rogue would bluffs away a single target, just curious about the perspective here, how the abilities are ranked in general.

    I think most stealth based abilities are pretty low on effectiveness, esp. considering they get the same exact loot rewards as the most effective builds.

    - In my opinion the current bluff scores put most monks and rangers out of the game. I'd suggest well equipped, buffed, trained monks to be the mark for highest scores, on unique encounters you can still break this pattern, for example during a challenging boss fight.

    I would have to go out of my way to qualify for high level "hard difficulty" with my completionist ranger/monk builds, (+7 cha tome, all ship buffs). Stealth builds already some of the hardest to gear characters by the way, please consider that. +15 skill gem and +8 cha gem is probably as far as i could go with my gear layout, currently there are no crafted or named items i could fit in.

    It takes a huge investment of skill points, feats, gearing, for an ability that is rather low on effectivenes. "It doesnt do any harm to the monster" in current DDO, bluff unfortunately is rather poor ROI.

  13. #393
    Community Member Boneshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    snip
    Excellent points, all of them.
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  14. #394
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    0> That is the plan. There is still a bit to do here and we'll actively be making changes until we feel both systems are working well.

    1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

    -Torc
    This is quoted from ddowiki

    "When making a Bluff attempt, the game rolls a Bluff check (1d20 + total Bluff skill + other modifiers) and compares the total roll against the formula (10 + target's base Hit Dice + target's Wisdom modifier + other modifiers). If the roll is greater than or equal to this value, the Bluff succeeds.

    Every time a monster is successfully Bluffed, it gains a permanent cumulative +1 modifier to resist later Bluffs. There is no way to reset this bonus short of respawning the monster. Any creature that can be Bluffed eventually becomes immune to Bluffing if it works enough times - or if it fails enough times."



    The second paragraph says that every successful bluff increases the targets resistances to bluff, is this still true? If so then against high hp monsters Shiv will most likely become useless after a few uses due to increasing resistances to bluff along with the higher dc required for bluff to hit.

    Now compare this to Ranger Exposing Strike which has no save and Monk Unbalancing Strike which has reflex save have no penalty on the target with repeated use of the attack.

    Also Rogue gets a maximum of 3 points they can invest into bluff which are in Acrobat tree, some classes are unable to spend enhancements points into bluff.

  15. #395
    Community Member Eliyse's Avatar
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    @Torc
    My thoughts on this - it's too broken in its current state. Back it out, and then get it right in test before reintroducing. Twiddling stuff like this on live and expecting people to be happy to pay to be beta (alpha?) testers - not a good way to keep people paying. It's also discouraging that a chosen mechanism was put into live as a "I just pulled these values from thin air. Let's put it live and go away for a couple of weeks". This is a horrible way to treat customers.
    As to the mechanism and value to be chosen, bluff is a class skill for only 4 classes. How are the rest to single pull? Should there be an equivalent flavour capability for other classes e.g. fighter or paladin could use intimidate (taunt) a creature into single combat? Casters should have a cheap low level spell that can draw a single critter. Etc, etc - different people have different ways of playing so give them the tools and opportunities. Not everyone wants to gather half a dungeon into a meat grinder all the time, so let customers play the way they want. As others have pointed out, this doesn't impact the AoE maestros, it impacts the people who play a slower game, and especially characters that were imagined as single-target damage dealers (not just rogues/assassins). Note that from day 1 of the game, it has had "insidious cunning" bonus for completing dungeon with minimal killing, so this playstyle was meant to be part of the game all along.
    Taken from other posts; the mechanism should not be a pass/fail. Have a buffer where it can "soft fail". Possibly raise alertness level, but only on a critical fail will you get the whole pack.
    Also, dungeon alert is such a broken mechanism. The original rationale given for it was to cut down on running past mobs and forming a large train as it caused lag. The changes being made now (including creating encounters where you get an instant red alert - see the optional zombie-cage encounter in The Black Loch) are causing dungeon alert far too often even when players are trying to clear as they go. It feels at times as if level designers are using dungeon alert as a mechanism for creating difficulty rather than the intended use.
    Finally an anecdote. Running one of the Threnal quests recently, soloing with a hireling, killing as I go (hi ho, hi ho), saw the alert go green in an empty part of the maze. Then yellow. Then I encountered some monsters, alert went to orange, killed them all, and alert only went back down to yellow. This is the way it continued until I completed - constant yellow, spiking to orange on encounter, and back to yellow (and not lower) after clearing. Thinking about this after getting out of there, wondering if this is because glass spider queens in the dungeon. After they get aggro, they keep laying eggs, not necessarily going after the player. So if the player doesn't run into that critter, it can keep laying eggs which hatch and more creatures to raise/maintain dungeon alert. With the way aggro propagates now, it was probably in a separate corridor with other monsters that simply ran to my character. After dealing with the rush I just continued a different direction down the maze not realising that there was another critter around that was going to later cause problems because of a broken anti-zerg mechanism. Throwing this anecdote in as yet another thing to be tested for whatever is tried in future.

  16. #396
    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    lots of info
    ok this is great. at least now we know where we are and where you are, thank you very much for posts like this.
    Last edited by Eryhn; 01-04-2017 at 03:43 AM.

  17. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliyse View Post
    @Torc
    My thoughts on this - it's too broken in its current state. Back it out, and then get it right in test before reintroducing. Twiddling stuff like this on live and expecting people to be happy to pay to be beta (alpha?) testers - not a good way to keep people paying.
    This.

    The change was too much of an impact. And it's not a good decision to start tweaking stuff live. It affects pretty much everything.
    Just move it to Lamannia, and you guys won't run the risk of discontenting/losing players.

    In other words, the initiative was great, and seems a good place where this is going. But don't do this live.


    EDIT:
    Just as another small example, I played "Tear of Dhakaan" a few hours ago. A single mob seeing you during the village section of this quest pulls the entire hobgolin village towards you. And if you decide to bypass the village invisible, you instantly get red alert after opening the door to the next room, which usually kills you.
    Last edited by lppmor; 01-04-2017 at 05:33 AM.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    0> That is the plan. There is still a bit to do here and we'll actively be making changes until we feel both systems are working well.

    1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

    2> All the stuff that exposed creatures to sneak attack damage should still work the same. If that's not the case please post or pm me an example of it failing to do so and we'll try to get it fixed ASAP.

    3> Rogue traps haven't been touched in to long. /agreed. Can't give you a time frame on this yet, to busy with stealth/aggro stuff plus reaper and unannounced "stuff", but it's on my list.

    4> We are currently testing monsters ignoring aggro share if their friend was "quick" killed by a stealth-ed player while their not facing them. It's looking good so far.

    5> So I'd love some more details here. Is this dungeon alert you have an issue with or monster perception in general even when no alert is present? The issue I've currently been investigating is outside the dungeon alert system, and it seems that sometimes monsters looking for me while I'm stealth-ed will sometimes get a position update on me that seems....illogically accurate. Seems to happen more often if I actually move far away to which is counter intuitive as well. I'll figure it out eventually but if you know a location that this happens 100% let me know.

    6> Assassinate was original designed for unaggro'd monsters. Still, looking at this from two situations....

    A> Using assassinate in active combat with my party: Might be a big power boost? Shrug. Assassinate was originally meant to be a reward for sneaking up on a monster clean. Using it as a general combat skill is worth looking at but would have to be reviewed in the general combat dps track, so it's a bit muddier. Still worth a look.

    B> Monsters are hunting me in stealth but aren't actively on me (red eye) or anyone else: This might be more what your hoping to see addressed and effects solo stealth play more. I think part of the problem is the bug, finger of god thing mentioned above?

    Some General Comments:

    -The aggro assist radius will be shrinking soon to cut down on some "interesting" monster chain reactions. Other steps may be taken, we'll see how it goes.

    -We will be taking a look at stealth character game play and trying to find a balance. This will take time (sorry), but it's a complex system, and globally effects content. This will probably take a few iterations to nail it down over several patches, but we intent to steadily punch away at it. I hope to get the "clean kills on monsters if their friends not looking" in pretty soon. We got a lot more know how back on the team since the new company, so expect things to change, even if little by little.

    - Please post feedback on bluff difficulty, what's you think a fair bluff score vs target is... hows the duration, etc.

    -Torc


    Hey thanks very much for making my DWS sneak attack capstone useless.... maybe next time just send me a note telling me to make my Ranger a TWF melee focused like every other ranger instead of wasting my time, lives, gear, grind, and enjoyment creating a sniper.

  19. #399
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    @Torc

    What happened to mob facing?

    What happened to player skills like hide and move silently?

    Mobs should "spot" players using a semicircle, not a radius, and be opposed by a hide score.

    Mobs should "hear" players in a circle, and turn towards the sound they heard, while being opposed by a move silently score.

    This doesn't seem to be what you describe.

  20. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    4> We are currently testing monsters ignoring aggro share if their friend was "quick" killed by a stealth-ed player while their not facing them. It's looking good so far.
    This seems like unnecessary complications. What would happen if some were facing the assassinated monster and some weren't? Wouldn't the ones facing alert the ones not facing? And how many aggro shares would you need to perform to reach the outcome of "all monsters are aggroed on you"?

    Why don't you just introduce a delay (about 1 second) before aggro sharing happens? That would allow double assassinates and a short time to retreat while not being unrealistic: Monsters need some time to coordinate. They are not mentally linked...

    6> Assassinate was original designed for unaggro'd monsters.
    Using assassinate in active combat is not at all unrealistic. What difference does it make that a monster is actively fighting when it is unaware of the assassin?
    My main server is Khyber. Have toons in almost every server for favor purposes. The Faltouts

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