Why exactly are paladins not allowed to be two weapon fighting without being gimped ?

[Walking_Ride]

1. Paladin has divine might but rangers have know the angels from harper enhancement tree which adds half your int mod to damage and tactics.

2. Self healing in ddo is hardly a problem anymore with epic destinies. Also a ranger gets cure light/moderate/serious wounds from ranger spells.
They also get freedom of movement...

3. Paladin get light damage core but rangers get a lot sneack attack dice from deepwood stalker.

Rangers also get the following...

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range (Advanced Sneak Attack) and +1 critical multiplier (Deflect Arrows) which translates to ~ 26 % dps .


I dare you show me what makes paladin top dog with all these things taken into consideration.

[Deadlock]

Where the heck do you see diversity in a class A (ranger) being allowed to fully utilize a particular fighting style (twf) when class B (paladin) can not ?

Almost every **** melee class have their off hand weapon affected when using said fighting style using crit enhancements, but yet again paladins can not.

What do you consider balanced in all this ?


For me, this is a one sided annihilation towards twf paladins.

Was there another post that I missed, or are we still talking about Holy Sword not affecting offhand weapons?

[Walking_Ride]

Was there another post that I missed, or are we still talking about Holy Sword not affecting offhand weapons?

I am just pointing out on why rangers are much better dps wise than paladins before and after the nerf to holy sword.

Which of course does not justify this particular nerf.

[Deadlock]

I am just pointing out on why rangers are much better dps wise than paladins before and after the nerf to holy sword.

Which of course does not justify this particular nerf.

So melee buffs need taken out of DWS? I've no problem with Tempest being the master of TWF in the same way that I have no problem with Vanguard being the master of S&B

[Walking_Ride]

So melee buffs need taken out of DWS? I've no problem with Tempest being the master of TWF in the same way that I have no problem with Vanguard being the master of S&B

I did not complain when rangers were buffed this much which put them ahead of paladins when two weapon fighting.

But now this particular nerf of holy sword not affecting off hand weapons adds insult to injury and further leads to bastardization of the paladin class.


Wake up developers and undo the nerf already.

Many people including me were giving enough data and proof on why this particular change to holy sword is totally outrageous and unneeded.

[bartharok]

LOL, TOP OF THE LINE ?

What the heck are you talking about ? Rangers are ahead of paladins in terms of dps even without the holy sword nerf.

Paladin top of the line in every fighting style ? Keep dreaming man.

Before the buff to ranger, which affects twf for the most part, paladins were considered the best melee. Now they are just as good in the other styles as theyvwere before.

[Walking_Ride]

Before the buff to ranger, which affects twf for the most part, paladins were considered the best melee. Now they are just as good in the other styles as theyvwere before.

I don't care what was before.

Almost every melee class including ranger was raised to the same power level as paladins before they needed to further shaft the holy sword spell.

Now is now.

Paladins should be able to utilize the twf line without hating their life.

[Grailhawk]

1. Paladin has divine might but rangers have know the angels from harper enhancement tree which adds half your int mod to damage and tactics.

2. Self healing in ddo is hardly a problem anymore with epic destinies. Also a ranger gets cure light/moderate/serious wounds from ranger spells.
They also get freedom of movement...

3. Paladin get light damage core but rangers get a lot sneack attack dice from deepwood stalker.

Rangers also get the following...

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range (Advanced Sneak Attack) and +1 critical multiplier (Deflect Arrows) which translates to ~ 26 % dps .


I dare you show me what makes paladin top dog with all these things taken into consideration.

I know you aren't going to agree with this but. If TWF Ranger is >> than TWF Paladin that's okay because from a flavor point of view Rangers are TWF masters.

The issue is if SWF and THF DPS Paladins are significantly behind TWF Rangers then we have an issue and on that I'm not sure what the proper solution is nerf Ranger, nerf TWF or buff SWF/THF hard to say on that one, math seams to say TWF is superior to THF/SWF which could warrant a TWF nerf but player experience indicates SWF/THF are superior which means a nerf is not warranted. Combat style balance is a hard topic.

So do you want to play a TWF or a Paladin that should tell you want you need to change after this nerf. TWF change class. Paladin change style.

[IronClan]

Where is the diversity in one class (paladin) being top of the line in every fighting style.

Which is what you seem to wish.

At what point does the defend turbine at all costs thing you're doing meet with reasonable assessment of facts?

SWF if Paladins are better than Swash it's because you did something wrong with your bard
THF Barb's are better I don't think this needs to be justified.
TWF Rangers are already better though more glass cannon until they nerf Heavy armor back into pajama land
S&B okay here a Paladin is better pending Fighter pass.

So 1 out of 4... close enough to "every" right?

The truth is that Holy Sword is a build easy button and so is heavy armor, there's a combination of Class and archetype (knight in shining armor) that appeals to everyday average players in Paladin, so they are popular, HS is easy and obvious, so paladin is popular, Vanguard is clear win for Paladin and S&B is IMMENSELY popular among new players and everyday average players....

So you equate easy with "best at everything" when instead what is really happening is that they have the most simple and straight forward path to being a solid character. This has balooned on the forums and is coloring the Dev's view like a mirage to a dieing man in the desert. Lets face it they can barely put out quality quests or loot they are under so much pressure from above, so the opportunity for them to play the game like real players and delve into more subtle and nuanced changes is minimal.

They are nerfing these things while Wolf form buzz saws through 9000hps mobs (without stacking boosts) and Tree builds crit for 35,000 bludgeoning damage... But those are complicated to fix and take time, they CLEARLY don't have time, and they are clearly just wacking the most prominent moles with the biggest hammer they can reach.

[bartharok]

I don't care what was before.

Almost every melee class including ranger was raised to the same power level as paladins before they needed to further shaft the holy sword spell.

Now is now.

Now is now?

And is the change live?

Or is it: It will affect me later.

Just adapt, and it wont be the end of the world.

And thanks for proving me right.

[bartharok]

At what point does the defend turbine at all costs thing you're doing meet with reasonable assessment of facts?

SWF if Paladins are better than Swash it's because you did something wrong with your bard
THF Barb's are better I don't think this needs to be justified.
TWF Rangers are already better though more glass cannon until they nerf Heavy armor back into pajama land
S&B okay here a Paladin is better pending Fighter pass.

So 1 out of 4... close enough to "every" right?

The truth is that Holy Sword is a build easy button and so is heavy armor, there's a combination of Class and archetype (knight in shining armor) that appeals to everyday average players in Paladin, so they are popular, HS is easy and obvious, so paladin is popular, Vanguard is clear win for Paladin and S&B is IMMENSELY popular among new players and everyday average players....

So you equate easy with "best at everything" when instead what is really happening is that they have the most simple and straight forward path to being a solid character. This has balooned on the forums and is coloring the Dev's view like a mirage to a dieing man in the desert. Lets face it they can barely put out quality quests or loot they are under so much pressure from above, so the opportunity for them to play the game like real players and delve into more subtle and nuanced changes is minimal.

They are nerfing these things while Wolf form buzz saws through 9000hps mobs (without stacking boosts) and Tree builds crit for 35,000 bludgeoning damage... But those are complicated to fix and take time, they CLEARLY don't have time, and they are clearly just wacking the most prominent moles with the biggest hammer they can reach.

Cease and desist, i beg thee, thy incisive analyses are killing me.

And at what point did you realize you should be the one running the show.

[Walking_Ride]

I know you aren't going to agree with this but. If TWF Ranger is >> than TWF Paladin that's okay because from a flavor point of view Rangers are TWF masters.

The issue is if SWF and THF DPS Paladins are significantly behind TWF Rangers then we have an issue and on that I'm not sure what the proper solution is nerf Ranger, nerf TWF or buff SWF/THF hard to say on that one, math seams to say TWF is superior to THF/SWF which could warrant a TWF nerf but player experience indicates SWF/THF are superior which means a nerf is not warranted. Combat style balance is a hard topic.

So do you want to play a TWF or a Paladin that should tell you want you need to change after this nerf. TWF change class. Paladin change style.

Are you seriously telling me that rangers should be ahead by 60% compared to paladins utilizing the two weapon fighting style in terms of dps ?

So basically : For THF/SWF go paladin otherwise ranger ?

This is nonsense. Why then not exclude twf for paladins ? No point using it while being severly crippled like a pathetic dog.

Even barbarians, bards and rogues can put out more dps now using that style. This has nothing to do with being a ranger either.

So much hate for paladins. This is hilarious !

[Walking_Ride]

Now is now?

And is the change live?

Or is it: It will affect me later.

Just adapt, and it wont be the end of the world.

And thanks for proving me right.

Proving what ? You are wrong.

[bartharok]

Proving what ? You are wrong.

You proved to me that all you care about is your toon.

[Walking_Ride]

At what point does the defend turbine at all costs thing you're doing meet with reasonable assessment of facts?

SWF if Paladins are better than Swash it's because you did something wrong with your bard
THF Barb's are better I don't think this needs to be justified.
TWF Rangers are already better though more glass cannon until they nerf Heavy armor back into pajama land
S&B okay here a Paladin is better pending Fighter pass.

So 1 out of 4... close enough to "every" right?

The truth is that Holy Sword is a build easy button and so is heavy armor, there's a combination of Class and archetype (knight in shining armor) that appeals to everyday average players in Paladin, so they are popular, HS is easy and obvious, so paladin is popular, Vanguard is clear win for Paladin and S&B is IMMENSELY popular among new players and everyday average players....

So you equate easy with "best at everything" when instead what is really happening is that they have the most simple and straight forward path to being a solid character. This has balooned on the forums and is coloring the Dev's view like a mirage to a dieing man in the desert. Lets face it they can barely put out quality quests or loot they are under so much pressure from above, so the opportunity for them to play the game like real players and delve into more subtle and nuanced changes is minimal.

They are nerfing these things while Wolf form buzz saws through 9000hps mobs (without stacking boosts) and Tree builds crit for 35,000 bludgeoning damage... But those are complicated to fix and take time, they CLEARLY don't have time, and they are clearly just wacking the most prominent moles with the biggest hammer they can reach.

Ranger improved version of holy sword is a even more easier button. Only requires 12 ranger levels plus it is working with off hand weapons.

Also rangers are glass cannons ? Why ? They get prr/mrr by taking additional core abilities let alone capstone dervish while retaining evasion and 5% incorp. and deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Plus they can splash for sacred defender/stalwart defender while keeping their improved holy sword version.

Seems legit ^^

[Walking_Ride]

You proved to me that all you care about is your toon.

No. But you should stop protecting your overpowered ranger build by stating wrong facts that does not match the op.

[bartharok]

No. But you should stop protecting your overpowered ranger build by stating wrong facts that does not match the op.

You should polish your crystal ball, its out of focus.

[Deadlock]

I don't care what was before.

You won't care what Holy Sword used to be then? Before it was changed to what it is now I mean. Or how the "new" paladins even after this change compare to the "old" paladins of yore?

Are we saying that all that matters is Holy Sword and TWF?

[Grailhawk]

... when instead what is really happening is that they have the most simple and straight forward path to being a solid character. This has balooned on the forums and is coloring the Dev's view like a mirage to a dieing man in the desert. Lets face it they can barely put out quality quests or loot they are under so much pressure from above, so the opportunity for them to play the game like real players and delve into more subtle and nuanced changes is minimal..

The game shouldn't be that easy though, it needs challenge. When a new player comes to the forum asking what to play for the last year Paladin has been the default answer because its easy and needs the least amount of work to make work cast holy sword, cast zeal and you are good. How you spend your enhancements points doesn't even really matter.

I still think Paladin is the the default easy button class to tell players to pick up but its not as easy as it was before that's not a bad thing in my book. Now we need to keep an eye on Barbarians make sure they are to powerful

[Walking_Ride]

You won't care what Holy Sword used to be then? Before it was changed to what it is now I mean. Or how the "new" paladins even after this change compare to the "old" paladins of yore?

Are we saying that all that matters is Holy Sword and TWF?

Yes because i wasted huge amount of thunderforged/toee mats crafting sets and weapons including time and efforts spent for this particular build (twf paladin) only to have it

made obsolete by this change in a matter of secounds. I did not complain when rangers got their overpowered buffs.

But this nerf to holy sword now is too much.