Can we stop with the everything must be pure kick?

[redoubt]

You have a double standard. There has never been a time when pure builds were not viable.

How about the first 2 years when rangers could not get into groups?

[redoubt]

Speaking for myself, if I want to try some particular multi-class build, I would want to derive some benefit from doing it. Likewise, if on another occasion my preference is to try some particular pure build, then I would also want to be able to derive some benefit from that, as well.

For example, if I want to get the most out of a swf fighter, I might find value in splashing some bard for swashbuckling. Since I'll be using light or no armor anyway, I might also find two levels of rogue to be valuable. People splash a some levels of fvs onto a cleric if they want a toon that can make good use of the cleric SLA boosted with the fvs enhancements.

So it's obviously okay for multi-classing to help. But does this mean that every "best thing" needs to come from multi-classing? I say no. It's fine for pure classes to be good, too.

Again, I have to wonder with the fixation on "killing off" some aspect of the game. Let's not kill off either method.

Well said.

[SirValentine]

No, it should lean toward pures specifically because multi-classes offer more variety, customization, and depth.

It's pointless to even argue with the anti-ever-be-pure people about which way it "should" lean, when the truth of the situation is that DDO has been so wildly, stupidly tilted towards multi-classes for quite some time. Even with a few token recent changes to capstones favoring pure builds a bit more, it is still highly tilted towards multi-classes. If the day ever comes when it actually becomes kind of close between pure & multi, then we can actually have an honest conversation about how it "should" be. For now, pure classes still need tons more love for that to even be close to true.

[Fetchi]

There is just one major flaw in your reasoning: You don't get the trap skills from taking the rogue levels, you get them from spending the skill points and increasing the skills. Skills are separate from classes. Perhaps you don't like that, but it's still true. Your will does not change reality.

You make absolutely no sense. My will does change reality. Maybe your reality is changed from other people's will? That is a poor choice.

Back to the point of this thread - should a character that has more than 1 class be able to perform as well as a class that is pure. Absolutely not. You are sacrificing the ability to perform the best as one class for some benefit from another class.

No multiclass splashed with paladin should be able to perform better than a pure paladin at doing what a paladin does best.

No multiclass splashed with rogue should be able to perform better than a pure rogue at doing what a rogue does best.

Ect.

Oherwise, what would be the point of pure classes?

[SirValentine]

There has never been a time when pure builds were not viable.

And there's never been a time when multi-class was not viable, and it's sure not about to start now, with over-powered Tier 5s from any class available to any other class with only a light splash.

There's always been advantages to multi-class, and they never went away.

It was the enhancement pass that made them, rather than an-often-reasonable trade-off, into the ridiculously over-powered and often-un-thematic mix-and-match we've had since. While leaving pure builds in the dust, as their relative boost was much smaller.

[J-mann]

The way I see pure classes is as edges in the frontiers of different ability axis. There is Crowd Control, DPS, Healing, Defenses, Utility.

A pure class is, by design in DnD, a combination of the 5 primary abilities. It so happens to be that in DnD that combination tends to be skewed for every class towards one such ability. For instance, barbarians excel at DPS and clerics at healing.

Mutliclassing is moving away from those defined packages to pick more of a primary ability, and if design is sound, it will mean giving up on some other primary ability. For instance, a cleric could forego some healing to gain melee DPS splashing bard.

There are several design decisions to be made in allowing for that:

- What is the importance in defeating content of each ability: ideally it should be well balanced, but we know it is not.

- Can you achieve more of a primary ability multi classing than staying pure?: For instance, a druid multi classed with monk can reach better DCs than a pure druid. Should a barb splash rogue have more DPS than a pure bard (at some cost)?

The problem of DDO right now are:

- Lack of proper trade offs: DPS has been married to healing in some classes (barb, bard, paladin)

- Overemphasis on DPS: a pure barb can complete the vast majority of content (raids included) without needing utility or crowd control or anything else beyond what is provided by his class.

- Heavily backloaded DPS: barbs, rogues and now rangers (updated classes) have excessively backloaded DPS. Since DPS is key and the rest are not, there is little to no sense in splashing something else if it means losing DPS.

This is why multi classing is dying. Look at the signature builds of the new updated classes. The vast majority are pure.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I may not be the most eloquent at times but the newest trend does not make these points less true, the pure folks would just like to ignore them.

FIRSTLY pure should NOT necessarily be best at any one particular thing, a multiclass specializing towards that goal should. A multiclass could be going for more.... utility (more on that folly of the pure folks later) but they could most certainly be synergizing different trees and classes to max out a particular ability (for example ranged throwing damage by crossing a ranger a monk and a rogue).

On the "utility" aspect, what "utility" is worth giving up 20% of your dps by forgoing your 18/20 cores? Especially when every class is seeming to get defense and healing built right in to the class? The answer is quite frankly little to none, which is why the new class passes besides bard are heavily pures.

[Darkmits]

You and Axeyu are just like Fran: You all must always be right and you'll shout down anyone who doesn't agree with you. Well, congratulations. You've exhausted me and you're right by default. Enjoy your Pyrrhic victory.

I thought the whole idea behind arguments is to use examples and reasoning on why one's ideas are "better" than the rest. I am in no way saying that I am the only one correct and that everyone else is wrong. I am using logic and experience to support my point of view. If someone presents an example on why my idea is wrong and his is better, then I will convert to that.

Also, I'm not shouting. If anything, I am quite calm in my posts.

[Axeyu]

That is not what was said.

you are getting argumentative with people who are asking for balance between pure and multi and it is making you look unreasonable.

You should read your own signature.

How about the first 2 years when rangers could not get into groups?

They are not asking for balance, they are asking for pures to be better. They have been very specific about that. "Multiclasses should be solo builds" etc.
How come your side accept that if pures are not the best no one plays them, but at the same time seems to think that people will still play multiclasses if they are not the best? The second quote proves my point.

[J-mann]

It's pointless to even argue with the anti-ever-be-pure people about which way it "should" lean, when the truth of the situation is that DDO has been so wildly, stupidly tilted towards multi-classes for quite some time. Even with a few token recent changes to capstones favoring pure builds a bit more, it is still highly tilted towards multi-classes. If the day ever comes when it actually becomes kind of close between pure & multi, then we can actually have an honest conversation about how it "should" be. For now, pure classes still need tons more love for that to even be close to true.

A bit more towards pure? Really? Have you LOOKED at the mechaninc, acrobat, FB, vangaurd, and proposed ranger 18/20 cores? They are MASSIVE amounts of a builds dps and for those archetypes there is literally no split that will bring enough to the table to matter. Face it the recent passes have gone WAY too far in overloading the 18/20 cores with goodies. A multiclass build =/= a versitile build. There are plenty of builds that would thematically and from a game design perspective (that elusive hunt for the "best" build) that would most certainly be more specialized in a classes "specialty" than the base class.

Further have you looked at the game recently? They are handing all the "versatility" out like candy that you would ever need to play.... so why sacrifice massive chunks of dps to play a multiclass? I remember back when everyone was pure or 18/2 (this is really back in the day before the enhancement revamps) everyone was clones of one another and most multiclassed builds were denied party almost instantly (outside very few, well known, variants). By putting so much power in the late cores we are quickly heading right back to that paradime, and it was one that was vastly less interesting.

As I have said earlier, you almost have to be willfully trying to fail to build a great build with the newly revamped pures, it requires that little thought, and in several of the archytypes there is no multiclass that brings enough to the table to outweigh the massive dps gains of the 18/20 cores (barring the exception of the holy sword mutts).

[Axeyu]

You make absolutely no sense. My will does change reality. Maybe your reality is changed from other people's will? That is a poor choice.

Back to the point of this thread - should a character that has more than 1 class be able to perform as well as a class that is pure. Absolutely not. You are sacrificing the ability to perform the best as one class for some benefit from another class.

You fail to understand that the levels are just arbitrary. It's the skills and abilities that define your character. If you level a rogue and don't spend a single skill point in trapping you will not be a good trapper, so trapping is obviously not a function of your rogue levels. And as the system works you can spend skill points in trapping when you level as any class, as long as you have unlocked it.

So the doctor can be just as good at fixing cars, he just have to spend twice the effort every year to learn it, which is represented by taking the skill points at double cost.

No multiclass splashed with paladin should be able to perform better than a pure paladin at doing what a paladin does best.

No multiclass splashed with rogue should be able to perform better than a pure rogue at doing what a rogue does best.

Ect.

Oherwise, what would be the point of pure classes?

The point of pure classes is to get a certain set of abilities/powers, which is exactly the same point as for multiclasses.
I don't get the idea that pures are laser-focused at one specific task. It's just not true.

[Axeyu]

And there's never been a time when multi-class was not viable, and it's sure not about to start now, with over-powered Tier 5s from any class available to any other class with only a light splash.

There's always been advantages to multi-class, and they never went away.

It was the enhancement pass that made them, rather than an-often-reasonable trade-off, into the ridiculously over-powered and often-un-thematic mix-and-match we've had since. While leaving pure builds in the dust, as their relative boost was much smaller.

If people get their wish with the strong level 20 cores multiclassing and pure builds will just swap position (look at barbs for proof). And that is a far worse situation.

[J-mann]

They are not asking for balance, they are asking for pures to be better. They have been very specific about that. "Multiclasses should be solo builds" etc.
How come your side accept that if pures are not the best no one plays them, but at the same time seems to think that people will still play multiclasses if they are not the best? The second quote proves my point.

I cannot understand their train of thought. I could care less really what your class split is as long as you have a creative and fun build that accomplishes the design goals. This is VASTLY more fun when you actually get choices in the matter than.... hurr durr just go 20 its better than any creative option you could choose..... 18/20 cores should provide a nice boost no doubt, but they should not be eclipsing anything a multi can bring as the current fb/mechanic/acro/vangaurd/proposed ranger cores are. Capstones needed some more umph, turbine just is giving them too much omph.

[J-mann]

You fail to understand that the levels are just arbitrary. It's the skills and abilities that define your character. If you level a rogue and don't spend a single skill point in trapping you will not be a good trapper, so trapping is obviously not a function of your rogue levels. And as the system works you can spend skill points in trapping when you level as any class, as long as you have unlocked it.

So the doctor can be just as good at fixing cars, he just have to spend twice the effort every year to learn it, which is represented by taking the skill points at double cost.



The point of pure classes is to get a specific set of abilities/powers, which is exactly the same point as for multiclasses.
I don't get the idea that pures are laser-focused at one specific task. It's just not true.

This. Pures are a set of abilities just as are multies. We get the same amount of spend of resources as one another, its HOW those resources are spent that determines what a character is good at. A pure can be a specialist, and a pure rogue, even in trapping, can specialize further than most multis can (only an arti/rog might be better) he would just have to make the choice to do so just as the wizard splash rogue did.

I would ideally say that there should be a core for every two levels of a class to spread it out more..... but thats not what turbine did so by making the 18/20 cores so powerful as they did with several of the new trees they are saying go pure or go home, which is boring, uninspired, lazy, and takes the best part of this game and tosses it out the window.

[PermaBanned]

...by making the 18/20 cores so powerful as they did with several of the new trees they are saying go pure or go home, which is boring, uninspired, lazy, and takes the best part of this game and tosses it out the window.

When it was "Go multi- or go home" I felt the same. These new high-powered cores haven't killed multi-classing, they've just made pures something better than a bnoobytrap. I do hope you're not claiming all revamped Pallies, Barbs, Bards, and (non-Assassin) Rogues are pure builds? I'd happily bet money that the quick check of a who list will more often than not display a plethora of multi-classed toons built - sometimes entirely - with revamped classes.

The 18/20 cores tend to & should be nice, but I've not yet seen one nice enough to demand all of that class take it or be gimp by comparison - and apparently neither has most other people.

[Axeyu]

When it was "Go multi- or go home" I felt the same. These new high-powered cores haven't killed multi-classing, they've just made pures something better than a bnoobytrap. I do hope you're not claiming all revamped Pallies, Barbs, Bards, and (non-Assassin) Rogues are pure builds? I'd happily bet money that the quick check of a who list will more often than not display a plethora of multi-classed toons built - sometimes entirely - with revamped classes.

The 18/20 cores tend to & should be nice, but I've not yet seen one nice enough to demand all of that class take it or be gimp by comparison - and apparently neither has most other people.

Barbs have exactly what they are asking for, the strongest class abilities in the high level cores, and there really is no reason to not go 18 or 20 barb. The same people are in the paladin threads asking for holy sword to be moved to the high level cores and for the new ranger cores to be significantly buffed.

Obviously balance is preferable, but "Go multi- or go home" is still a far better situation than "Go pure or go home", which is what these people are asking for.

[J-mann]

When it was "Go multi- or go home" I felt the same. These new high-powered cores haven't killed multi-classing, they've just made pures something better than a bnoobytrap. I do hope you're not claiming all revamped Pallies, Barbs, Bards, and (non-Assassin) Rogues are pure builds? I'd happily bet money that the quick check of a who list will more often than not display a plethora of multi-classed toons built - sometimes entirely - with revamped classes.

The 18/20 cores tend to & should be nice, but I've not yet seen one nice enough to demand all of that class take it or be gimp by comparison - and apparently neither has most other people.

If they are a mechanic (unless holy sword mutted) they are either 18 or 20 rogue or they do significantly less damage. If they are barb they are either 18 or 20 with 20 being generally better but some room for the 18. If they are acro they are 18 with little reason to not go 20 or they give up way way too much damage. Assassin you already mentioned. If they are vanguard they are 18/20 pally or once again the dps drop is terrifically significant. I already stated that they did not over do bards, but pure bard is certainly a decent and credible choice. A theme you will notice...... all of the most recently revamped class are go pure or give up so much damage that any "utility", and I laugh at that word being used in the current game, gained is just not worth it by a long shot.

18/20 should be nice, problem is they are more than nice, they are overbearing, in the new class revamps. IMO in an ideal world there would be a core every two levels, since there isnt, and a multi gets the same point spend as apure, the 18/20 cores can not be so overbearing as the new passes have them.

[SirValentine]

"Go multi- or go home" is still a far better situation than "Go pure or go home", which is what these people are asking for.

While I disagree that "Go multi- or go home" is "far" better, I don't want to argue it here, because it's a pointless strawman.

Few if any people are saying "Go pure or go home", and the devs sure aren't pushing that, either.

[J-mann]

When it was "Go multi- or go home" I felt the same. These new high-powered cores haven't killed multi-classing, they've just made pures something better than a bnoobytrap. I do hope you're not claiming all revamped Pallies, Barbs, Bards, and (non-Assassin) Rogues are pure builds? I'd happily bet money that the quick check of a who list will more often than not display a plethora of multi-classed toons built - sometimes entirely - with revamped classes.

The 18/20 cores tend to & should be nice, but I've not yet seen one nice enough to demand all of that class take it or be gimp by comparison - and apparently neither has most other people.

I am not sure why you feel pures should be so special? What effort is there in fitting together a good pure? The answer is little. A great multi? Tons. And that is the difference between the two. While multis being strong doesnt really effect you (you can pull a build off the net if you cannot be bothered to craft your own) pures being overbearing (the current trend) completely eliminates the class and enhancement building system in this game.

[J-mann]

While I disagree that "Go multi- or go home" is "far" better, I don't want to argue it here, because it's a pointless strawman.

Few if any people are saying "Go pure or go home", and the devs sure aren't pushing that, either.

Except if you want to be a barbarian, an acro, a mechanic, an assasin, a vanguard, sure they are not. And lets see how many names are added to that list as the pass marches on.... starting to look like tempest is going to be as well, especially if the purists get their way.

[SirValentine]

If they are a mechanic (unless holy sword mutted) they are either 18 or 20 rogue..

In case you didn't notice, 18 Rogue / 2 other stuff IS a multiclass. But that doesn't explain the plethora of Rogue 4 or 5 / 15 or 16 other stuff, or Rogue 1 or 2 / 18 or 19 other stuff, among other Rogue multi-class builds I see very commonly in-game. I do see some pure Rogues, but not overwhelming numbers.

I think it's kind of nice to see pure actually worth going for also, instead of only splashing. Don't know why people hate pure and want us back on an everything-must-be-multi kick.