Why no Heroic Raid?

[Augon]

This is not a thread to blast or criticize the developers, I am genuinely curious as to why the decision was made to not include a Heroic Raid in U27.

Since there is no Raid on Heroics but there is one on Epics, I have no real desire to run the Heroic content. I'm not saying that there is no reason to run it, Not everyone has high level epic characters, I understand that. But for me, at this time, I'd rather work on getting my characters flagged and my friends characters flagged for the Raid. If there was a Raid on heroic, Id be running the quests at that level as well for flagging.

So why no Heroic Raid?

[Steelstar]

There are a lot of reasons, not all of which I can go over here, but to outline one of the factors behind that decision:

• No Heroic Raid items meant more (and better!) Epic Raid items
  
  • The six extra Raid items that appeared after the first Lamannia pass (as well as some of the time spent making feedback adjustments) would not have been possible if Heroic Raid items needed to be designed, built, balanced, and added to treasure. We decided it would be better to put more focus on the Epic Raid loot.

The long story short is "Heroic difficulty for the Raid was a large undertaking, and we ultimately decided to improve the rest of U27 instead, rather than overextend trying to add Heroic." We do know that some players enjoy Heroic raids, but in this case, it wasn't in the cards.

[Grailhawk]

IMO raiding is an endgame activity, raids should be built for the current endgame players not for leveling.

[Augon]

There are a lot of reasons, not all of which I can go over here, but to outline one of the factors behind that decision:

• No Heroic Raid items meant more (and better!) Epic Raid items
  
  • The six extra Raid items that appeared after the first Lamannia pass (as well as some of the time spent making feedback adjustments) would not have been possible if Heroic Raid items needed to be designed, built, balanced, and added to treasure. We decided it would be better to put more focus on the Epic Raid loot.

The long story short is "Heroic difficulty for the Raid was a large undertaking, and we ultimately decided to improve the rest of U27 instead, rather than overextend trying to add Heroic." We do know that some players enjoy Heroic raids, but in this case, it wasn't in the cards.

Thanks for the quick response.

IMO raiding is an endgame activity, raids should be built for the current endgame players not for leveling.

I guess different folks may have different views on this and I'm guessing many folks probably agree with you. I personally do not agree with this and I do not see it representative of DDO either. Afterall there are numerous raids at lower levels. Granted, I think most were created when they were end game, but I think a lot of newer players to the game do not see it that way. Since I arrived just around the time the game went to lvl 25, I saw all the lower level raids as far below the End Game scene. But I was glad for it because it wasn't long before I was able to join a Chrono Raid and not much longer before I was able to join a Tempest raid. I would have hated to have to wait until I capped a character to be able to Raid. I think now they help newer players develop raiding experience before they reach "End Game". I enjoy Raids on lower level characters as much as I enjoy them on High end Epics.

[Lauf]

The long story short is "Heroic difficulty for the Raid was a large undertaking, and we ultimately decided to improve the rest of U27 instead, rather than overextend trying to add Heroic." We do know that some players enjoy Heroic raids, but in this case, it wasn't in the cards.

I loath epics, I love heroics. don't know why. I'm sure I would have been happier if I managed to love epics, but it is what it is.

hence having items that have no heroic versions, and having a raid that isn't heroic, are both considered bad compromises in my book.

perhaps the epic crowd will feel different about this "half-design" move of yours. personally, I'm not a fan.

[slarden]

There are a lot of reasons, not all of which I can go over here, but to outline one of the factors behind that decision:

• No Heroic Raid items meant more (and better!) Epic Raid items
  
  • The six extra Raid items that appeared after the first Lamannia pass (as well as some of the time spent making feedback adjustments) would not have been possible if Heroic Raid items needed to be designed, built, balanced, and added to treasure. We decided it would be better to put more focus on the Epic Raid loot.

The long story short is "Heroic difficulty for the Raid was a large undertaking, and we ultimately decided to improve the rest of U27 instead, rather than overextend trying to add Heroic." We do know that some players enjoy Heroic raids, but in this case, it wasn't in the cards.

I can accept this, but why don't I get guild renown from the raid? Every other raid that has an epic-only raid giver gives guild renown. We've missed out on at least half a level.

[Cetus]

There are a lot of reasons, not all of which I can go over here, but to outline one of the factors behind that decision:

• No Heroic Raid items meant more (and better!) Epic Raid items
  
  • The six extra Raid items that appeared after the first Lamannia pass (as well as some of the time spent making feedback adjustments) would not have been possible if Heroic Raid items needed to be designed, built, balanced, and added to treasure. We decided it would be better to put more focus on the Epic Raid loot.

The long story short is "Heroic difficulty for the Raid was a large undertaking, and we ultimately decided to improve the rest of U27 instead, rather than overextend trying to add Heroic." We do know that some players enjoy Heroic raids, but in this case, it wasn't in the cards.

Good Decision - that heroic raid would have been a bust

[kanordog]

IMO raiding is an endgame activity, raids should be built for the current endgame players not for leveling.

I couldn't care less about "endgame" so am I not allowed to raid?
Am I allowed to play or post on forums at all?

[Axeyu]

I couldn't care less about "endgame" so am I not allowed to raid?
Am I allowed to play or post on forums at all?

No. Go away.

[unbongwah]

Generally speaking, there are two reasons people run heroic raids: leveling XP or gear-farming. A lot of older raids have fallen by the wayside, either because the XP is poor, the flagging mechanics are too obnoxious, or the loot is no longer worth the effort - sometimes all of the above. Twilight Forge is a ghost town; and I can't remember the last time I saw a Reaver, VoD or HoX PUG. On rare occasions I will see a ToD, LoB, or MA raid posted, but obviously nowhere near as frequently as back in the day when they were the endgame raids.

So in order to introduce a new mid-teens heroic raid which gets run regularly, it would need either excellent XP for TRers or worthy gear which competes with GS (ideally both); otherwise, most people will simply ignore it. But given all the other heroic gear & crafting systems we already have in DDO, I can see why Turbine didn't feel like it was worth the resources necessary.

I couldn't care less about "endgame" so am I not allowed to raid?

What I'd like to see Turbine do is give those older heroic raids a makeover: up the XP, revamp the gear, maybe epic-ify some of them. It's a lot cheaper than making new raids; and the gear already exists, it just needs upgrades which make them more desirable again.

[Lauf]

Generally speaking, there are two reasons people run heroic raids: leveling XP or gear-farming. A lot of older raids have fallen by the wayside, either because the XP is poor, the flagging mechanics are too obnoxious, or the loot is no longer worth the effort - sometimes all of the above. Twilight Forge is a ghost town; and I can't remember the last time I saw a Reaver, VoD or HoX PUG. On rare occasions I will see a ToD, LoB, or MA raid posted, but obviously nowhere near as frequently as back in the day when they were the endgame raids.

So in order to introduce a new mid-teens heroic raid which gets run regularly, it would need either excellent XP for TRers or worthy gear which competes with GS (ideally both); otherwise, most people will simply ignore it. But given all the other heroic gear & crafting systems we already have in DDO, I can see why Turbine didn't feel like it was worth the resources necessary.

What I'd like to see Turbine do is give those older heroic raids a makeover: up the XP, revamp the gear, maybe epic-ify some of them. It's a lot cheaper than making new raids; and the gear already exists, it just needs upgrades which make them more desirable again.

the flaw in your reasoning is that you're looking at what used to be end-game raids.
people running heroics aren't usually @ 20 in order to run them.

look at tempest spine & von, and you've got 2 mid-range raids who are frequently run.
I've also never ran a life without seeing a couple of reaver's fate lfms while in that level range, so I'm not sure why you've counted it as a "never seen" raid, it seems to still attract a reasonable amount of attention.

the only heroic raids that aren't run are chrono, which I personally love running even in heroics, that raid is a lot of fun @ level 8 but it's usually skipped because people either jet through the early levels or don't have proper DR breakers for it so they just opt to skip it altogether. I believe that had that raid been a level 8 raid instead of a 6 it would have great success.

as for restless isles/sands/necro, they're are skipped because the flagging is just ridiculous.

for my money, adding a level 15 heroic raid that requires little flagging is a pretty surefire win.
I'd argue the xp doesn't even need to be that good, people would still run it for some variety.

[unbongwah]

look at tempest spine & von, and you've got 2 mid-range raids who are frequently run.

Those meet my "good leveling XP" requirement. You will note I did not list either in my "heroic raids nobody bothers with" list.

I've also never ran a life without seeing a couple of reaver's fate lfms while in that level range, so I'm not sure why you've counted it as a "never seen" raid, it seems to still attract a reasonable amount of attention.

You must have better luck with Reaver than me; I see lots of heroic PUGs for GH quests inc. Tor, virtually none for the raid.

as for restless isles/sands/necro, they're are skipped because the flagging is just ridiculous.

Isn't that what I said?

for my money, adding a level 15 heroic raid that requires little flagging is a pretty surefire win.
I'd argue the xp doesn't even need to be that good, people would still run it for some variety.

People will try out almost anything once. Raids only get run regularly when the rewards for doing so are commensurate with the effort expended for the level range they're aimed at.

[Grailhawk]

I couldn't care less about "endgame" so am I not allowed to raid?
Am I allowed to play or post on forums at all?

Never said you couldn't don't see why you cant take a day or two at 28 and try it out you can then jump back on your TR treadmill, people used to do that all the time at the 20 cap.

Raids should be built for the current level cap.

[Captain_Wizbang]

There are a lot of reasons, not all of which I can go over here, but to outline one of the factors behind that decision:

• No Heroic Raid items meant more (and better!) Epic Raid items
  
  • The six extra Raid items that appeared after the first Lamannia pass (as well as some of the time spent making feedback adjustments) would not have been possible if Heroic Raid items needed to be designed, built, balanced, and added to treasure. We decided it would be better to put more focus on the Epic Raid loot.

The long story short is "Heroic difficulty for the Raid was a large undertaking, and we ultimately decided to improve the rest of U27 instead, rather than overextend trying to add Heroic." We do know that some players enjoy Heroic raids, but in this case, it wasn't in the cards.

Good call.

Any chance you all will revisit ToD? I mean the sets could use a tweak, maybe lower the min lvl?

[DDOKillingMachine]

(and better!)

Eh, well, you guys missed the mark on that one. That time would have truly been better spent on a Heroic raid.

IMO raiding is an endgame activity,

No, it isn't.

raids should be built for the current endgame players

No, they shouldn't. Maybe that's how it is in other games, I can't speak to those. But it is most certainly NOT how it should be in DDO. Raids in this game should be the end quest in a big campaign arc, or scaleable stand-alone mega adventures. NOT endgame malarky.

[FranOhmsford]

I guess different folks may have different views on this and I'm guessing many folks probably agree with you. I personally do not agree with this and I do not see it representative of DDO either. Afterall there are numerous raids at lower levels. Granted, I think most were created when they were end game, but I think a lot of newer players to the game do not see it that way. Since I arrived just around the time the game went to lvl 25, I saw all the lower level raids as far below the End Game scene. But I was glad for it because it wasn't long before I was able to join a Chrono Raid and not much longer before I was able to join a Tempest raid. I would have hated to have to wait until I capped a character to be able to Raid. I think now they help newer players develop raiding experience before they reach "End Game". I enjoy Raids on lower level characters as much as I enjoy them on High end Epics.

The ONLY low level Raid that was created specifically to be low level was Chronoscope {which did have an Epic Version built straight in too.}.

Tempest Spine was the FIRST Raid in DDO and was THE End-Game Raid at that time!

VoN 5/6 and Titan/Twilight Forge were next {Not sure which came first}.
Then ADQ, Reaver's Fate, Abbot, Shroud, VoD/HoX, ToD and finally the House C Raids - All of which were created as the Lvl Cap went up!
When Epic Levels came out we got CitW followed by FoT, MoD, Thunderholm and the Latest one - Again each was created with the specific purpose of being END-GAME CONTENT!

Chronoscope is the ONLY Raid specifically created as a Low Level Raid and even that had an Epic Version when it was created!

And how many actual at level groups do you see for Chrono? Chrono was and is run at level by people after a Challenge but the vast majority of Heroic Chrono groups have always been Favour/Loot runs with Capped Characters allowed in Party!

There's NO reason whatsoever to Build any more Heroic Raids!

And in fact the likes of Titan/Twilight Forge and VoD/HoX would be greatly enhanced by Epiccing them!
Abbot and ToD also!
The House C Raids already have Epic versions but those versions should be upgraded so EN is Lvl 30! {Or just remove the Heroic Versions completely!}.

[FranOhmsford]

I loath epics, I love heroics. don't know why. I'm sure I would have been happier if I managed to love epics, but it is what it is.

hence having items that have no heroic versions, and having a raid that isn't heroic, are both considered bad compromises in my book.

perhaps the epic crowd will feel different about this "half-design" move of yours. personally, I'm not a fan.

and how are you going to get an at level group for this "Heroic Raid"?

Come on people!

The Heroic Raids {not counting Tempest Spine as it's a special case} we have don't get run any more other than Shroud and the occasional HoX/VoD {And those are always open to Lvl 28s!}.


The ONLY reason I can see for people clamouring for an Heroic version of this Raid is for access to superior Heroic Loot from Over-Level Loot runs!



I don't like Epics! I rarely run any Epics other than the EN Dailies {VoN 3/4, Haywire, Spies, Wiz King, OoB and Chains}!
But Raids should be for those who've reached the End-Game and need something to do once there!

No, they shouldn't. Maybe that's how it is in other games, I can't speak to those. But it is most certainly NOT how it should be in DDO. Raids in this game should be the end quest in a big campaign arc, or scaleable stand-alone mega adventures. NOT endgame malarky.

Why should I have to find 11 other people to be able to complete a quest arc?

Raids aren't meant to be soloed and I'm honestly fed up of having to start an E-BB Tempest Spine with less than 6 players because no-one will join unless it's already IP at that point!
And Tempest Spine is one of the EASIEST Raids to get a Group for!

The Devs could have {and probably should have at the time} made both Stealer of Souls and Dreaming Dark Raids but they didn't - Those are End Quests of a Story Arc!

Mindsunder, In the Flesh, Siegebreaker - None of these are Raids! They could have been! But Raids were meant to be something special and these quests though Challenging clearly weren't considered Raid material by the Devs!


Grouping while levelling is getting more and more difficult for content that's not considered popular as we get more and more content and people are spread out over a larger array of levels!
It's End-Game where Grouping should be necessary NOT levelling up!

[kanordog]

then jump back on your TR treadmill

I don't have one and I don't have altitis, sorry.

Just trying to enjoy the game.

[Axeyu]

No, it isn't.
No, they shouldn't. Maybe that's how it is in other games, I can't speak to those. But it is most certainly NOT how it should be in DDO. Raids in this game should be the end quest in a big campaign arc, or scaleable stand-alone mega adventures. NOT endgame malarky.

Raiding has always been endgame activety. The low level raids we have now are just left-overs from when they were endgame.
Chrono is an exception due to how it scales, but it has never been that popular to run at low levels anyways.

[Lauf]

Isn't that what I said?

People will try out almost anything once. Raids only get run regularly when the rewards for doing so are commensurate with the effort expended for the level range they're aimed at.

forgive me if I weren't clear what I meant to say is you shouldn't be counting level 18-20 raids as heroic raids, for the simple reason that the heroic crowd isn't spending much time @ 20.

my other point was that heroic raids do get run, even if they aren't in the von5 xp range. the only real thing you need in order to have an active raid is easy flagging, and put it in the 10+ level range, where people aren't as fast power leveling through it.

tempest spine isn't great xp, nor does it have great items. it's just a fun raid, and raiding makes for a nice change of pace from the usual grind.

I think the game would benefit from having more heroic raids, and that counting heroic levels as "un-raidable" is a miss.

The ONLY reason I can see for people clamouring for an Heroic version of this Raid is for access to superior Heroic Loot from Over-Level Loot runs!

you are wrong. I don't know how else to put it, you're just wrong.
I can honestly say I haven't even LOOKED at what the epic loot looks like, so I for the life of me couldn't tell you what a heroic version of it should look like.
I would like to have a heroic raid because I enjoy raiding, and I enjoy heroics. for me having a heroic raid would be fun.

sorry to hear you find that unreasonable.