Why no Heroic Raid?

[FranOhmsford]

forgive me if I weren't clear what I meant to say is you shouldn't be counting level 18-20 raids as heroic raids, for the simple reason that the heroic crowd isn't spending much time @ 20.

ToD and LoB are Lvl 20 Raids and Both count as HEROIC! {LoB even has Low level Epic Versions for some ridiculous reason! At least upgrade the Epic versions to 30 OR remove the Heroic version completely!}

If the Devs gave ToD the same XP as E-VoN 5 when MotU came about you can be assured that it would get run regularly still rather than the once a fortnight thing it seems to be!

my other point was that heroic raids do get run, even if they aren't in the von5 xp range. the only real thing you need in order to have an active raid is easy flagging, and put it in the 10+ level range, where people aren't as fast power leveling through it.

Really?

VoN 5 doesn't get run that much on Heroic because people skip it in favour of getting the first time bonus on Epic!

Shroud is probably still the most popular Heroic Raid other than Tempest Spine and the ONLY reason Shroud still gets run is GREENSTEEL! Not because people enjoy Raids!

ADQ2, Twilight Forge/Titan, Reaver's Fate, Abbot, HoX, VoD and ToD are barely run at all - HoX is probably the most popular of those and even that you may see a single LFM a week for!

tempest spine isn't great xp, nor does it have great items. it's just a fun raid, and raiding makes for a nice change of pace from the usual grind.

Lol!

30k xp isn't great xp for a Lvl 10 quest?

Tempest Spine may not equal VoN 3, Shadow Crypt or Wiz King but it's not far behind em!

As for the items - They're amongst the strongest items of their levels still and the big problem with them is simply that they're BtCoA rather than BtA on Aquire and BtC on Equip!

I think the game would benefit from having more heroic raids, and that counting heroic levels as "un-raidable" is a miss.

Chronoscope {the ONLY raid designed not to be at End-Game - And even then it did have an Epic Version right from the get-go!} was an unmitigated FAILURE!

Players quickly realised that the Loot and Favour {which was all they wanted from it} could be got by opening the LFM up to Lvl 20s {28s now!} and basically having a couple of high level players run it for them!

There's so much XP available at Lvl 5-8 that there's absolutely no reason for anyone to run Heroic Chrono for XP so it could have given 0 XP and it would have been run just as much!

People ran it for the Loot and those who didn't care about the Loot got that one HE Completion for the Favour!

you are wrong. I don't know how else to put it, you're just wrong.
I can honestly say I haven't even LOOKED at what the epic loot looks like, so I for the life of me couldn't tell you what a heroic version of it should look like.
I would like to have a heroic raid because I enjoy raiding, and I enjoy heroics. for me having a heroic raid would be fun.

sorry to hear you find that unreasonable.

And just who's going to run this Heroic Raid with you?

Or do you expect to be able to Solo it?

There ARE Raids available at Lvl 10-15:
Tempest Spine
VoN 5/6
Twilight Forge/Titan Awakes
ADQ2
Reaver's Fate
Heck you can even run a Heroic Chrono!

Of those Raids only Tempest Spine and VoN 5/6 are run with any frequency whatsoever at Heroic Levels - The Rest are pretty much Dead content!

[davmuzl]

Imo the time shouldn't have been spent on extra loot and instead on extra bosses in the raid or on creating a more an interesting experience.
In the first quest we have to prove ourselves worthy. Whoever did crucible before will say that the archons trial is a joke. But whatever they are now our allies.
Then they send us to do the dirty work for them.
And then there is a battle between the archons and the devils!!!!! ... but we don't get to see it. We don't even get archons to fight with us on the ground. It's just- hey guys you have to help our fallen members - oh and can you please also take care of that corrupted archon- thank you!

There could have been archons that have to be kept alive because they have an aura that saves you from an AoE effect. Or the archons could have helped closing the reinforcement portals (btw why are there new fancy ones in the quests but the raid only has old ugly ones that probably exist since DDOs launch?). There could also have been a fight in the sky or whatever they have on/in? shavarath.

Also how does rescuing the fallen archons from being corrupted help the ones still fighting?
Wouldn't they have to rest a while before they could fight again? Or are archons different than humans in that way? Or is it just magic?
We could have had a good old fashioned rescue mission, where we would free archons who would then help win the fight. That would make a bit more sense imo.

There are also so many great quests and raids to look at when you want to creat a cool new raid. Why is it a simple- you can't let 15 devils be there at the same time who don't really fight back? Take a look at the Blood Plate fight in chronoscope. It wasn't all that complex either. But it supported a party setup where healers and CC casters were welcome/needed.
Also why can't we have 15 devils that come out of portals, but other devils are ok? Why do we need this objective at all? Shouldn't the enemies in a raid be powerful enough to just kill the party when there are too many? And if there is no way to make them powerful enough could it be that PCs are too powerful?

One thing I liked about chronoscope was that there were no powerful horned devils or pit fiends needed. 2 of the bosses are orthons. In this raid there are way too many horned devils and pit fiends. It's the same thing that was done in terminal delirium with all the medusas and beholders. Now ok we are 8 levels higher than when we beat horoth. But if we are beting all those pit fiends and horned devils so easily now- where is the next level? The corrupted archon?
There are some good examples of awesome bosses in DDO. Just look at the LoB. Shouldn't there be something better than the LoB in the game by now?

And finally- please when you make a new endgame raid, make it so it's actually really really hard. We should have to figure out normal for the first few days. Once we understood the basic idea we should have to move to hard, where we might see some new mechanics that were not there on normal. Think about stuff like the djinnis in von6.
And if you can't come up with anything else or don't have enough time or whatever to have those mechanics then please at least increase the stats by a lot. If the bossfight took half an hour the first time that would be fine. Sure they would be a lot of people complaining mainly because they aren't used things like that in the game anymore. But in the end it would simply be something players actually have to work for. It should be a matter of actually getting a full raid group and coordinating them in order to beat the raid. Not something a good character can solo within the first few days after the launch.

[Axeyu]

tempest spine isn't great xp, nor does it have great items. it's just a fun raid, and raiding makes for a nice change of pace from the usual grind.

Tempest spine is just a 12 man quest. People run it for for exp.

[sirgog]

This is not a thread to blast or criticize the developers, I am genuinely curious as to why the decision was made to not include a Heroic Raid in U27.

Since there is no Raid on Heroics but there is one on Epics, I have no real desire to run the Heroic content. I'm not saying that there is no reason to run it, Not everyone has high level epic characters, I understand that. But for me, at this time, I'd rather work on getting my characters flagged and my friends characters flagged for the Raid. If there was a Raid on heroic, Id be running the quests at that level as well for flagging.

So why no Heroic Raid?

The main issue is that heroic raids require one of two things:

Either:

- They are too easy for 12 players (Heroic VON6 in its present form, Heroic Reaver's Fate).

OR

- They don't really get run often at level at all because you can't get 8-12 players together for them, because people don't stay in heroic levels long (Abbot, VOD, TOD)


The first group don't feel like raids, the second can be fun but generally require a forum effort to make them happen and you only get one run per life. Or alternately they are done by small groups overlevel.

I do think a no-flagging-required raid could possibly be worth trying in heroic levels, however. There's just enough players to support it, and of the existing heroic raids the ones that get run most are Colonscope (no flagging), Tempest's Spine (no flagging) and VON5/6 and Reaver's Fate (extensive flagging but all of the flagging is good XP except VON1 and the Tor dragons, which aren't all that long).

Colonscope got the heroic loot right - high drop rates and BTA items, with rarer BTC epic versions.

[DougGlyndwyr]

I don't think I've seen a day go by without at least one HE-BB VoN 5.

[Eth]

Eh, well, you guys missed the mark on that one. That time would have truly been better spent on a Heroic raid.

No, it isn't.
No, they shouldn't. Maybe that's how it is in other games, I can't speak to those. But it is most certainly NOT how it should be in DDO. Raids in this game should be the end quest in a big campaign arc, or scaleable stand-alone mega adventures. NOT endgame malarky.

I don't know, but it seems pretty rare that heroic raids are even run at level though. Let alone with a full group.
Finding 12 people that want to run a raid that are in the same level range, that also did the flagging? Well, good luck.

Von 5/6 and Chronoscope are probably the most common.

Reaver, Titan, ADQ, Shroud, VoD, HoX, LoB, MA, ToD?
I see LFMs for them up every once in a blue moon and they may be run, but usually extremely shortmanned.

...and then there's heroic abbot which is not run at level at all it seems. Probably because the flagging is a pain and still requires a group that knows what you have to do, no matter how much powercreep you give people (*cough warlock *cough*).

[eachna_gislin]

Those meet my "good leveling XP" requirement. You will note I did not list either in my "heroic raids nobody bothers with" list.

You must have better luck with Reaver than me; I see lots of heroic PUGs for GH quests inc. Tor, virtually none for the raid.

With the fresh Hamp items (remnant turn-ins) and more self-healing, the gloves from Reaver's Fate have become kind of popular as TR gear. You can easily run it with 3 people.