merge heavy & light repeater feats

[xcharon79]

see topic.
ive been recently looking for wich items to get for my bard after level 20(shes using repeaters since i find them really fun. they could use a buff, but i still kinda like them), when i figured that the list
of available named repeaters is somewhat... unsatisfying... due to some issues with the distinction between light and heavy repeaters.

dunno if thats been suggested(the search funktion doesent really find anything recent regarding those things), but looking at how some of the named repeaters "transform" from light to heavy ones,
having to invest two feats in an allready somehwat "inferior" ability makes the use of repeaters really unappealing for anybody thats not a mechanic or arty.
atm the only justification for having two feats(its not that they were that much different technically) is itemization, wich shouldnt be an issue in the first place, looking at the variety on some other loot tables.
...or maybe simply add more respective x-bows, to fill gaps and add flavor?

anyways, id really like to see repeater feats being merged, to open it up as an option for "non rogues and arties" without having to throw multiple feats at virtually the same weapon.


regards

/edit: typos...

[Uska]

Just pick one or the other you really don't need both

[xcharon79]

Just pick one or the other you really don't need both

well, no such thing as calomel's or silver slinger in the light line, and none with nightshade venom in the heavies(the light line gets slayers hand and doublecross for that matter).
so your goina lack either save-or-cc or even more of your allready crummy damage and capability to adapt(no blunt bolts for ex)...

based on what assumtion did you make that statement?
since to me it toally looks like it DOES matter.

[Uska]

well, no such thing as calomel's or silver slinger in the light line, and none with nightshade venom in the heavies(the light line gets slayers hand and doublecross for that matter).
so your goina lack either save-or-cc or even more of your allready crummy damage and capability to adapt(no blunt bolts for ex)...

based on what assumtion did you make that statement?
since to me it toally looks like it DOES matter.

Its two different exotic weapons and sometimes you have to make a choice.

[xcharon79]

Its two different exotic weapons and sometimes you have to make a choice.

allright, why dont bastard(you may insert any other ex. weapon) sword users have to pick between utility and damage?
last time ive checked there werent any light-khopeshs or -kamas....

[Uska]

allright, why dont bastard(you may insert any other ex. weapon) sword users have to pick between utility and damage?
last time ive checked there werent any light-khopeshs or -kamas....

Because b-swords are one weapon and light and heavies are two weapon you would be getting double and an extra feat. Also for b-swords people are already losing half of what they should since in pnp you can use it one or two handed

[xcharon79]

Because b-swords are one weapon and light and heavies are two weapon you would be getting double and an extra feat.

bastard swords have a total of 13 named variants, light and heavy repeaters togeather allso have 13.
either merge it, or introduce an apropriate number of items, that would justify individual feats.
allso, your bastard sword doesent suddenly transorm into a (featwise, but other than that totally the same)different kinda weapon as you upgrade it, that would require a second ex.weapon feat.

btw, presenting any argument at all is the least thing one can request. :thumbsdown:
talking about going back to post1 and think of what might've been the whole purpose of this thread.

[Sehenry03]

I have to agree with Uska here.

Using the BSword argument you could consider the Bastard Sword the "Heavy variant of the long sword.

The game has always had Light and heavy repeaters for ages now. Now they should merge them simply because you want to be able to use both?

Pick one and go with it.

[Uska]

bastard swords have a total of 13 named variants, light and heavy repeaters togeather allso have 13.
either merge it, or introduce an apropriate number of items, that would justify individual feats.
allso, your bastard sword doesent suddenly transorm into a (featwise, but other than that totally the same)different kinda weapon as you upgrade it, that would require a second ex.weapon feat.

btw, presenting any argument at all is the least thing one can request. :thumbsdown:
talking about going back to post1 and think of what might've been the whole purpose of this thread.

Also it takes two feats in pnp and you forget you can make several different effective greensteel repeaters a repeater because of the multiple shot gives you more chances for the special effect to go off so,I say requiring you to use two feats if you want both styles is appropriate

[Sehenry03]

bastard swords have a total of 13 named variants, light and heavy repeaters togeather allso have 13.
either merge it, or introduce an apropriate number of items, that would justify individual feats.
allso, your bastard sword doesent suddenly transorm into a (featwise, but other than that totally the same)different kinda weapon as you upgrade it, that would require a second ex.weapon feat.

btw, presenting any argument at all is the least thing one can request. :thumbsdown:
talking about going back to post1 and think of what might've been the whole purpose of this thread.

And all the weapon types have differing amounts of named items. Shurikens have what...3-5 named versions of itself? Throwing Daggers have...6-8? The amount doesn't matter. Make a GS version however ya want. Then a TF version when you hit 22/24/26/28.

The argument that there are only this many is void considering every weapon type has a different amount of named versions. The more popular weapon types have more variations and they should. The least popular should have less. That's why we can CRAFT.

[xcharon79]

I have to agree with Uska here.

Using the BSword argument you could consider the Bastard Sword the "Heavy variant of the long sword.

The game has always had Light and heavy repeaters for ages now. Now they should merge them simply because you want to be able to use both?

Pick one and go with it.

well id love to, only that for example calomels or hellfire x-bows change their types with upgrade tiers.
what about some of the really good bastard swords becoming khopeshs?
were talking exotic weapons here, so longsword becoming bastrard wouldnt quite fit.
i can imagine that annoying the heck out of some ppl. ~~

how is one supposed to pick one if the darn thing changes to something of a different "type"?
and its a toally repeater exclusive phenomenon(?), wich isnt great to begin with(more on that below).
not any reasonable.

allso, the sheer hoardes of repeater *****s out there totally underline that it doesent need a buff.
quoted from elsewhere:

note: repeater doesnt scale well.

So in all honesty, Maximize and Empower will give you WAY more bang for your buck than crossbow and repeater stuff.

Sorry, never used repeaters, so can't advise you.
Once you are above level 20, you won't need a repeater

repeaters are nice in heroics but usually fade in epics

The problem is repeater isn't an effective weapon

theres a thread out there doing some solid comparrison between regular, great, light & heavy rep. x-bows.
bottomline: repeaters are by far subpar, due to all the stealthnerfs that are justified with multiple proc propabilities, and end up behind even regular x-bows,
which dont require (an) additional feat(s).
ontop of that your forced to pay for featswaps at a certain point or invest a second feat, wich makes it very unappealing for someone who doesent get it for free.

btw, theres alot of stuff not 100% true to pnp, this is a mmo after all. so sticking with it just for the sake of it being this way in pnp really shouldnt be the aim.
maybe you wanna go back to 4x mass hold per day?

from a gameplay/balancing perspective throwing both feats togeather would be a good option to at least add some versitality to something that undoubtly lacks punch.

[Uska]

well id love to, only that for example calomels or hellfire x-bows change their types with upgrade tiers.
how is one supposed to pick one if the darn thing changes to something of a different "type"?

allso, the sheer hoardes of repeater *****s out there totally underline that it doesent need a buff.
quoted from elsewhere:






theres a thread out there doing some solid comparrison between regular, great, light & heavy rep. x-bows.
bottomline: repeaters are by far subpar, due to all the stealthnerfs that are justified with multiple proc propabilities, and end up behind even regular x-bows,
which dont require (an) additional feat(s).
ontop of that your forced to pay for featswaps at a certain point or invest a second feat, wich makes it very unappealing for someone who doesent get it for free.
btw, theres alot of stuff not 100% true to pnp, this is a mmo after all. so sticking with it just for the sake of it being this way in pnp.
from a gameplay/balancing perspective throwing both feats togeather would be a good option to at least add some versitality to something that undoubtly lacks punch.

As a sometime repeater user I disagree and think it should be two feats

[xcharon79]

As a sometime repeater user I disagree and think it should be two feats

weired, coz the numbers tell a totally different story.
looking at those it hardly qualifies for 1 feat.

again, arguments plox. statements without any context arent really helpful.

[Sehenry03]

weired, coz the numbers tell a totally different story.
looking at those it hardly qualifies for 1 feat.

again, arguments plox. statements without any context arent really helpful.

Arty's using repeaters are ok in Epic content...they just need help to adapt to current stuff. I Dubbel O'Seven's build is great and does good even on EE content using repeaters as they are now and I doubt he cares about light repeaters at all since heavy's are better.

The issue isn't repeaters...the issue is ranged in general needs a boost.

Your arguments don't show that repeaters are bad in themselves as that is a false statement. its the build that makes them good. by itself in a lvl 1 fighters hand a repeater is MUCH better then a shuriken. At high lvl with the right feats/enhancements the shuriken is currently much better. It is not the repeaters fault. The current ranged system needs changing not the weapons.

And again to your argument that there aren't enough named repeaters...other weapons have few named and that means nothing. GS/TF are better then most named items anyway of similar level so just craft something.

You simply don't want to have to change out weapons and that's your choice but your argument in no way

[Chi_Ryu]

weired, coz the numbers tell a totally different story.
looking at those it hardly qualifies for 1 feat.

again, arguments plox. statements without any context arent really helpful.

That thread contains numbers only for Endless Fusilade, and no hard DPS stats for non-Endless Fusilade usage - only damage per shot (and the repeating crossbow has a significantly higher rate of fire, even despite the longer load animation. FYI, it fires about twice as many bolts as the normal version averaged over time).

In regular use, a Repeating Crossbow is way ahead of the non-repeating version, especially when you take into account per-hit procs (for Artis this is even more due to Rune arm use).

[xcharon79]

Arty's using repeaters are ok in Epic content...they just need help to adapt to current stuff. I Dubbel O'Seven's build is great and does good even on EE content using repeaters as they are now and I doubt he cares about light repeaters at all since heavy's are better.

wich sorta validates my point. merge the feats, since literally nobody opts for lights. EVER.

in pnp the difference is that you can use TWO light repeaters with relatively small drawbacks compared to heavies, wich isnt the case in ddo.
seperating between lights and heavies in this game doesent serve ANY purpose.
the only thing it does is restrict any non arty/rogue in which of the, allready very few, named variants one can use.

as long as theres no dual wield light repeaters, or a distinction between reload mechanics of light and heavy xbows, as its SUPPOSED to be, there is no
reasonable justification as why to throw two feats at it.

The issue isn't repeaters...the issue is ranged in general needs a boost.

Your arguments don't show that repeaters are bad in themselves as that is a false statement. its the build that makes them good. by itself in a lvl 1 fighters hand a repeater is MUCH better then a shuriken. At high lvl with the right feats/enhancements the shuriken is currently much better. It is not the repeaters fault. The current ranged system needs changing not the weapons.

repeaters dont scale well, thats one of the things i quoted above allready.
the dr, that sucks up alot of damagetypes it isnt supposed to affect at all, is a HUGE dimish due to the "1k needles" style of the repeater, and it rapidly changes from really handy to "not good for much more than procs".
thats not per se a ranged combat problem, while i agree that that in itself needs an overhaul.

And again to your argument that there aren't enough named repeaters...other weapons have few named and that means nothing. GS/TF are better then most named items anyway of similar level so just craft something.

You simply don't want to have to change out weapons and that's your choice but your argument in no way

nope, my arguments were that items keep changing types during your career(ill stop complaining as soon as all those cheese-melees have to deal with the same garbage too), and poor named distribution amoungst
heavy and light repeater(no utility for heavies, no damage for light in the named arsenal).

the lack of any gamemechanics that would justify 2 feats(again, dual wield xbow and move- instead of full round-action reload is why we have TWO feats in pnp.
in ddo its just a differently named heavy repeater), and that theres classes out there to wich the whole repeater thing is somewhat "exclusive"(if you wanna use
the whole spectrum) due to feats they shouldnt even get, while unnessesarily increasing the cost, and therefore decreasing incentive, for anybody else.

and no hard DPS stats for non-Endless Fusilade usage - only damage per shot

prolly you should read it again...
its with fusilage, yes, but its damage in the timeframe of 6seconds, not "per shot".
and its not even taking descreased procchance, substracted damage from dr etc into account.

/edit: personal sidenote: im really dissapointed in the "bittervet habbit" of "oh noes dont change a thing im used to", conciously leaving out important factors like the 3xdimish from dr,
even arguing with pnp rules while again ignoring those that dont help the "oh noes bittervet" cause... :thumbsdown:
prolly stepping 5 steps back, looking at the whole picture, will serve you guys well.

/edit2: alternatively to merging the feats, applying some stuff thats oriented towards the pnp rules would work too.
half movement speed while reloading for heavies, no penalty for lights.
allow dual wield at the cost of the according penalties, i.e. (-4)+(two one handed weapon penalty) for heavies, and (-2)+(two light weapon penalty) to attack for lights, while
triplling(?) reload times, and/or forcing stationarity when reloading 2 heavies, and half movement rate for lights(similar to spellcasting).

atm you plainly get more damage out of heavy repeaters, with no reason to go light, other than beeing horribly poor and unable to throw a couple plat at the ah.
this way youd trade mobility and to-hit propability for moar damage. mind, too, that lights are more affected by dr without getting anything in return.

[Certon]

I actually agree with the OP.

Exotics should be broken up into five classes:

Exotic Slash
Exotic Blunt
Exotic Pierce
Exotic Ranged
Exotic Thrown

That being said, there should be a few exotic blunt, thrown, and pierce weapons, as well as a few additional ranged, like Greatbows...

[bsquishwizzy]

bastard swords have a total of 13 named variants, light and heavy repeaters togeather allso have 13.
either merge it, or introduce an apropriate number of items, that would justify individual feats.
allso, your bastard sword doesent suddenly transorm into a (featwise, but other than that totally the same)different kinda weapon as you upgrade it, that would require a second ex.weapon feat.

btw, presenting any argument at all is the least thing one can request. :thumbsdown:
talking about going back to post1 and think of what might've been the whole purpose of this thread.

Maybe we should just merge all weapons into a few different categories: Two-Handed Slash, One-handed slash, Quarter staff, mace, and rapier. And just make it Bow and Repeater.

Simple! Fixed! No more confusing weapons types anymore!

(Honestly, the OP is a dumb idea. You want to have access to all repeaters because you want it, not because it makes any sense.)

[Powerhungry]

current character choice needs to use 2 feats to use both repeaters.
Play an arti or add rogue/mechanic levels and get the proficiencies.
You're not complaining that you have to use a feat to use a long bow (and there are far more long bows than short bows).
Suppose a wizard wishes to use bows? Should long/short bows be the same proficiency now too?

[xcharon79]

(Honestly, the OP is a dumb idea. You want to have access to all repeaters because you want it, not because it makes any sense.)

actually its exactly the other way round: the guys who opted for heavies, well knowing that they cheese around the 1round reload-delay(that does not apply for lights,
i however dont see them firing at twice the rof) it comes with, and the movement penalty for that matter, are too "full of win"(i.e. not interrested the slightest in any
good balance, as long as their built wont end up the cheesiest) to even realize that light repeaters are penalized, compared to heavies, without any justification for
those smaller damage dice.

again, they dont get anything in return: neither granting lights the "in line" additional multiplyer or larger thread range for smaller damage dice, nor is the increase
in rof anywhere noticable and far far from twice as high.
and lets not forget about dualwielding mechanics.

so, despite the fact that theres numerous reasons to do "something", and that i suggested to actually add one, or some, changes that are in line with, or leaning towards
pnp(wich would ultimately not allow me to acess both. *duh*), you still make up the above accusitions?
propably you shouldnt take your own habbit as standard, when it comes to "sense motive checks". -.-

Suppose a wizard wishes to use bows? Should long/short bows be the same proficiency now too?

last time i checked i didnt have to throw classlevels or feats at short or longbows, picking an apropriate race did the trick, neither did any of my rangers longbows
transmute into any other sort of bow.

obviously few ppl like the idea of merging feats, so lemme suggest a couple changes to lights, that particulary apply the same way to the other exotic weapons as well:
increase thread range to 18-20
or increase multiplyer to x3
or increase rof by ~30% (wich should allready be the case)
or half movement rate while reloading heavies
and/or allow dualwield with according penalties (for both)

and just to get this straight(call it a preventive measure, for "certain" folx with selfish personalities):
ive got an arsenal of HEAVIES lying around, and other than for checking out the difference in rof never use any lights as it is atm.
so yeah, changes like the movementspeed penalty would hurt me as well.

/edit: allso, where exactly do rogues get to use repeaters for free anyhow?
say NO to being forced into a certain class! if i want that theres tons of other lame mmos out there. ~~

/edit2:

Exotics should be broken up into five classes:

Exotic Slash
Exotic Blunt
Exotic Pierce
Exotic Ranged
Exotic Thrown

good point actually. twf's "regulary" dont get imp. crit on their main- and off-hand for just one feat(two if you use an exotic mainhand. but hey rapiers are free anyways).
couldnt find any "oversized twf" in the dragon magazines and whatnot either. all theese things heavily benefit melee types.
...so, this whole stuff literally screams "buff me plx".
d'you guys arguing against this even have any sort of "eye for numbers"?