merge heavy & light repeater feats

[Uska]

actually its exactly the other way round: the guys who opted for heavies, well knowing that they cheese around the 1round reload-delay(that does not apply for lights,
i however dont see them firing at twice the rof) it comes with, and the movement penalty for that matter, are too "full of win"(i.e. not interrested the slightest in any
good balance, as long as their built wont end up the cheesiest) to even realize that light repeaters are penalized, compared to heavies, without any justification for
those smaller damage dice.

again, they dont get anything in return: neither granting lights the "in line" additional multiplyer or larger thread range for smaller damage dice, nor is the increase
in rof anywhere noticable and far far from twice as high.
and lets not forget about dualwielding mechanics.

so, despite the fact that theres numerous reasons to do "something", and that i suggested to actually add one, or some, changes that are in line with, or leaning towards
pnp(wich would ultimately not allow me to acess both. *duh*), you still make up the above accusitions?
propably you shouldnt take your own habbit as standard, when it comes to "sense motive checks". -.-


last time i checked i didnt have to throw classlevels or feats at short or longbows, picking an apropriate race did the trick, neither did any of my rangers longbows
transmute into any other sort of bow.

obviously few ppl like the idea of merging feats, so lemme suggest a couple changes to lights, that particulary apply the same way to the other exotic weapons as well:
increase thread range to 18-20
or increase multiplyer to x3
or increase rof by ~30% (wich should allready be the case)
or half movement rate while reloading heavies
and/or allow dualwield with according penalties (for both)

and just to get this straight(call it a preventive measure, for "certain" folx with selfish personalities):
ive got an arsenal of HEAVIES lying around, and other than for checking out the difference in rof never use any lights as it is atm.
so yeah, changes like the movementspeed penalty would hurt me as well.

/edit: allso, where exactly do rogues get to use repeaters for free anyhow?
say NO to being forced into a certain class! if i want that theres tons of other lame mmos out there. ~~

No to dual wield for sure and no to rof increase or crit increase of any kind and we have enough changes from PnP we don't need more the weapon is fine at least as it is concerned though ranged over all does need looking at not just one specific weapon class. You want both types pay the price or be a arti/rouge

[Vellrad]

Feat makes you proficient with reload mechanism.
Is it so much different in light and heavy crossbow that they need 2 separate feats?
No.

[Uska]

Feat makes you proficient with reload mechanism.
Is it so much different in light and heavy crossbow that they need 2 separate feats?
No.

Takes two in pnp

[xcharon79]

Takes two in pnp

in pnp theres a huge difference between heavies and lights.
lights can be fired every round using a move action, while heavies need a full round action to prepare the next shot.
in ddo you just get the smaller damage dice, without the benefits of not spending a whole round reloading.
therefore, since its canon to increase thread or multiplyer for lower dice, 18-20crit.
thats the way weapons dice and crit scale in pnp, thats the way they should scale here.

and im really dissapointed that in over a page of thread theres only been "opinions" without ANY relevant data to underline ones point.
ZERO, despite taking "parts" of pnp rules that serves the "nay" case, deliberately ignoring the other half of them(wich clearly say "yay").

No to dual wield for sure and no to rof increase or crit increase of any kind and we have enough changes from PnP we don't need more the weapon is fine at least as it is concerned though ranged over all does need looking at not just one specific weapon class. You want both types pay the price or be a arti/rouge

i take the time to type it, so BEFORE you state your oppinion, at least take the time to read it.
this would get us CLOSER to pnp, in pnp there is no such thing as free repeaters for any rogue prc.
and since the lights just get smaller damage dice without anything in return its not "fine", you just dont use em and dont give a ****.
in fact E-V-E-R-Y topic dealing with the light or heavy question says "screw lights, get a TF heavy".

[Uska]

in pnp theres a huge difference between heavies and lights.
lights can be fired every round using a move action, while heavies need a full round action to prepare the next shot.
in ddo you just get the smaller damage dice, without the benefits of not spending a whole round reloading.
therefore, since its canon to increase thread or multiplyer for lower dice, 18-20crit.
thats the way weapons dice and crit scale in pnp, thats the way they should scale here.

and im really dissapointed that in over a page of thread theres only been "opinions" without ANY relevant data to underline ones point.
ZERO, despite taking "parts" of pnp rules that serves the "nay" case, deliberately ignoring the other half of them(wich clearly say "yay").


i take the time to type it, so BEFORE you state your oppinion, at least take the time to read it.
this would get us CLOSER to pnp, in pnp there is no such thing as free repeaters for any rogue prc.
and since the lights just get smaller damage dice without anything in return its not "fine", you just dont use em and dont give a ****.
in fact E-V-E-R-Y topic dealing with the light or heavy question says "screw lights, get a TF heavy".

Before they gave them for free to arties and rogues using AP's I did use them and some characters I used lights, some heavies and one or two I used both, but until they fix ranged over all I don't really mess with ranged characters currently. They will do a ranged pass at some point and then maybe everyone will be happy

[xcharon79]

Before they gave them for free to arties and rogues using AP's I did use them and some characters I used lights, some heavies and one or two I used both, but until they fix ranged over all I don't really mess with ranged characters currently. They will do a ranged pass at some point and then maybe everyone will be happy

the thing is that in its "segment" the light repeaters are subpar to the heavies.
ona heavy tf craft you get a 4.5-45 roll per bolt, as opposed to 4.5-36 ona light.
thats roughly a 25% increase, whereas rof hardly differs at all(so that 30% rof increase isnt even a bad idea if you take dr-mitigation into account).
and because there IS NO DIFFERENCE other than damage(which is kind of a shame), applied damage over the course of x seconds should be similar(wich it isnt).

this can be easily resolved, brought at least back up on par with other stuff before a complete pass, and(in case of 18-20 or x3 crit) would be in line with pnp scaling.
either that or sayd movement penalty while reloading, wich in fact should anyhow apply to heavies in general(yes thats canon, fire up the dandwiki).

/edit: or hey, as i first suggested, forget about different reaload penalties, dualwield capabilites and rof at all and just throw them togeather.
alltho id rather have an actual difference between the 2, coz more options are allways more fun(well in most cases), and are whats d&d is all about.

[Chi_Ryu]

prolly you should read it again...
its with fusilage, yes, but its damage in the timeframe of 6seconds, not "per shot".
and its not even taking descreased procchance, substracted damage from dr etc into account.

I read it just fine. DPS is provided only for Endless Fusillade (which can only be used a fixed number of times, for 6s each time, with 30s cooldown), and damage per shot for non EF - that's the true figure.

Increased proc chance goes in the repeater's favour, too.

[Sehenry03]

The thing for me is...I play an Arty and only use heavy repeaters anyway. I would never use a feat to use a repeater on another class as I don't use that style on anyone. I could really care less one way or the other.

BUT...this is how it has worked since they were introduced and it has worked fine since then. Who cares if light repeaters are used? No one really except the OP. I do NOT want Turbine to WASTE time doing something like this when it will have 0 impact on 99% of the player base.

[Failedlegend]

I wouldn't be against Heavy/Light Repeater prof being replaced by Repeater Prof...it's not about choice light & heavy repeaters are interchangable and if your not an Arty constantly having to switch your prof feat based on what happens to better for X level is a PITA.

[Oxarhamar]

I wouldn't be against Heavy/Light Repeater prof being replaced by Repeater Prof...it's not about choice light & heavy repeaters are interchangable and if your not an Arty constantly having to switch your prof feat based on what happens to better for X level is a PITA.

Agreed

[Oxarhamar]

For Epics lvl 23 Needle (light) is the overall best DPS against most mobs until LVL 28 Thunderforged (Heavy) w/MF

Still depended on your build lvl 28 TF w/MF falls behind Needle @ 28 for single target boss DPS. MF is best for trash.

If I had to choose Lifht or Heavy for Epics I'd choose light & build a light TF w/MF

[nibel]

in pnp theres a huge difference between heavies and lights.
lights can be fired every round using a move action, while heavies need a full round action to prepare the next shot.
in ddo you just get the smaller damage dice, without the benefits of not spending a whole round reloading.
therefore, since its canon to increase thread or multiplyer for lower dice, 18-20crit.
thats the way weapons dice and crit scale in pnp, thats the way they should scale here.

I did a suggestion topic on ranged weaponry some months ago, and I suggested a pass like that.

Simple weapons:

Light Crossbow: 1d6, 19-20/x2
Heavy Crossbow: 1d8, 20/x3
Dart: 1d6, 20/x2
Throwing Dagger: 1d4, 19-20/x2 (lower damage, better crit)

Martial weapons:

Shortbow: 1d6, 19-20/x2 (like light xbow, but without a reload action)
Longbow: 1d8, 20/x3 (like heavy xbow, but without a reload action)
Throwing Axe: 1d8, 20/x3 (higher damage dice than any simple thrower)
Throwing Hammer: 1d8, 20/x3 (like throwing axe, just blunt instead of slash)

Exotic weapons:

Light Repeater Crossbow: 1d6, 18-20/x2 (Better crit range than the light xbow for being exotic instead of simple)
Heavy Repeater Crossbow: 1d8, 20/x4 (better crit multi than the heavy xbow for being exotic instead of simple)
Great Crossbow: 1d12, 18-20/x3 (Both crit range/mult of the non-exotic xbows for not having improved RoF)
Shuriken: 1d8, 18-20/x3 (same thing as great xbow)

And then, of course, everyone complained that shuriken was overpowered, and barely commented on the rest of the list.

[General_Gronker]

Just pick one or the other you really don't need both

You don't get to decide what anyone else needs or even to tell them what they need.

As a sometime repeater user I disagree and think it should be two feats

As a sometimes repeater user, you're wrong.

There is absolutely no good reason for light and heavy to be two different feats. Period.

[Uska]

You don't get to decide what anyone else needs or even to tell them what they need.

As a sometimes repeater user, you're wrong.

There is absolutely no good reason for light and heavy to be two different feats. Period.

Wrong it's per pnp and we should stay as close as possible we have enough change just with the enhancement system and don't even the tiniest amount more! And I didn't decide the designers of the gsme did I just support that as is

[Aelonwy]

I knew about the Hellfire Crossbow but I was unaware of the Calomel. That is really unfair. Do any other weapons in the game change weapon type/weapon proficiency when upgraded either through heroic to epic (Hellfire) or via Challenge or Event crafting (Calomel)? If not that's either an oversight or an assumption by the devs that no one but Artificiers or Mechanic Rogues will want to use these weapons.

Anyway, my opinion is go ahead make it a single proficiency feat. Doing so will hurt no one, and may help some players. And complaining that its not PnP is silly. At this point DDO is based on DnD lore but the technicalities of the mechanics have moved leagues away. By the way I am an avid PnP player.

[JOTMON]

I did a suggestion topic on ranged weaponry some months ago, and I suggested a pass like that.

~snip~
Exotic weapons:

Light Repeater Crossbow: 1d6, 18-20/x2 (Better crit range than the light xbow for being exotic instead of simple)
Heavy Repeater Crossbow: 1d8, 20/x4 (better crit multi than the heavy xbow for being exotic instead of simple)
Great Crossbow: 1d12, 18-20/x3 (Both crit range/mult of the non-exotic xbows for not having improved RoF)
Shuriken: 1d8, 18-20/x3 (same thing as great xbow)

And then, of course, everyone complained that shuriken was overpowered, and barely commented on the rest of the list.

I would just remove heavy repeater from the game, and just have repeater crossbow based on the light repeaters with damage and crit as is.
Remove single shot light Crossbow, so you have a single shot regular crossbow and a single shot great crossbow.
Increase the crit range/Multiplier on these single shot crossbows, currently single shot crossbows suck in comparison to repeaters.
This way the single shot crossbow becomes the higher damage and crit accurate weapon vs the pewpew machine gun version that spews more but is less powerful and crit accurate

[Oxarhamar]

I would just remove heavy repeater from the game, and just have repeater crossbow based on the light repeaters with damage and crit as is.
Remove single shot light Crossbow, so you have a single shot regular crossbow and a single shot great crossbow.
Increase the crit range/Multiplier on these single shot crossbows, currently single shot crossbows suck in comparison to repeaters.
This way the single shot crossbow becomes the higher damage and crit accurate weapon vs the pewpew machine gun version that spews more but is less powerful and crit accurate

Heavy repeater base damage die have already been nerfed no reason to nerf them more by removing them from the game entirely.

[Ancient]

Wrong it's per pnp and we should stay as close as possible we have enough change just with the enhancement system and don't even the tiniest amount more! And I didn't decide the designers of the gsme did I just support that as is

Pick your principle and stick with it. If you want PnP as the standard, then the benefits of light repeaters and the drawbacks of heavy repeaters need to also match PnP. If the DDO does not match PnP on the ability to dual wield light repeaters or the extra delay on heavy repeaters.... Then DDO essentially merged them into one weapon and they should do so with the feats.

Either way, you are for matching PnP when it supports your desires and against it when it does not...

[Uska]

Pick your principle and stick with it. If you want PnP as the standard, then the benefits of light repeaters and the drawbacks of heavy repeaters need to also match PnP. If the DDO does not match PnP on the ability to dual wield light repeaters or the extra delay on heavy repeaters.... Then DDO essentially merged them into one weapon and they should do so with the feats.

Either way, you are for matching PnP when it supports your desires and against it when it does not...

In pnp you couldn't relaod repeaters as fast as here if if took as long and had as many draw backs I would support it but here there would be absolutley zero draw back to,using dual light repeaters and yes heavy repeaters reload to fast as well here

[Oxarhamar]

Pick your principle and stick with it. If you want PnP as the standard, then the benefits of light repeaters and the drawbacks of heavy repeaters need to also match PnP. If the DDO does not match PnP on the ability to dual wield light repeaters or the extra delay on heavy repeaters.... Then DDO essentially merged them into one weapon and they should do so with the feats.

Either way, you are for matching PnP when it supports your desires and against it when it does not...

This is on reason PnP is not a valid argument here. PnP DMs tend to pick & choose which edition, which splat books, etcetera are valid to them.

3.5 on repeaters.

Repeater Module: A repeater module is a reasonably compact, complex mechanism of wood and metal operating with sophisticated springs, that can be fitted to any masterwork light or heavy crossbow and that can hold a maximum of 20 bolts at any one time. A repeater module automatically spans the crossbow string and mounts a new bolt in place after the last one is discharged, as long as there are bolts left in the module itself. Basically, the repeater module allows you to perform a full attack action with a crossbow. When wielding a crossbow with a repeater module installed, you can make use of the Rapid Shot feat and other feats regarding ranged attacks if you have them. Loading a crossbow with a repeater module feeds the new bolts directly into a small bolt magazine imbedded in the module in a 5 by 4 arrangement. Manually reloading a repeater module, i.e. inserting the bolts in the incorporated magazine individually, takes 1d4+1 rounds, but replacing the bolt magazine itself is a much quicker process and can be done as a standard action. Non-masterwork crossbows cannot handle the strain that a repeater module puts on the mounted bow string and take 1d4 damage every time the mechanism loads a new bolt, that is not reduced by the weapon's hardness. Attaching a repeater module onto a crossbow requires 1 minute. Removing one requires half a minute.
Despite allowing a crossbow an enhanced rate of fire, the repeater module can make the crossbow either an automatic or semi-automatic weapon.
Semi-Automatic: Looses a single bolt with a single depression of the trigger. Semi-automatic fire is a full attack action.
Automatic: Looses multiple bolts with a single depression of the trigger. Allows the wielder to fire an extra bolt at his full base attack bonus, but you can only target a single enemy this round. The extra bolt fired may be made to stack with the effects of Rapid Shot, for a total of two extra attacks if that option is used. Automatic fire is also a full attack action, because the wielder needs to brace the weapon.
Every round that a crossbow with a repeater module is used in combat, there is a 1% chance of the mechanism stalling due to miscommunication between the crossbow and the module. If that happens, the crossbow cannot be used until the repeater module is removed and reattached properly. If a crossbow is magical, this chance of stalling disappears.
A repeater module has hardness 8 and 10 hit points.
Construction: Fashioning a repeater module requires 500 gp worth of base materials ranging from top quality wood and steel to a carefully callibrated system of autoloading springs. Its construction requires either a DC 25 Craft (bowmaking) check, or a DC 25 Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check in conjunction with a DC 20 Craft (carpentry) or Craft (metalwork) check.
Price: 1,000 gp. (includes the price of its bolt magazine).
Weight: 4 lb. (includes the weight of its bolt magazine).

3.5 on Heavy crossbow :

Crossbow, Heavy
Simple One-Handed Projectile
Critical: 19–20/×2
Range Increment: 120 ft.
Type: Piercing
Hardness: 5
Size Cost1 Damage Weight1 hp
Fine * 1d3 * 1
Diminutive * 1d4 * 1
Tiny * 1d6 * 1
Small 50 gp 1d8 4 lb. 2
Medium 50 gp 1d10 8 lb. 5
Large 100 gp 2d8 16 lb. 10
Huge * 3d8 * 20
Gargantuan * 4d8 * 40
Colossal * 6d8 * 80
For values marked with an asterisk, the SRD gives neither this value directly nor a means to determine it.



Truely want to stick to 3.5? Give me my 6d8 Colossal Heavy Crossbow w/ repeater module
Or at least bring Heavy repeaters back to 2d8 pre nerf