Swashbuckler

[IronClan]

On to those one handed fighting feats, well, it cant be a natural fighting clone, because natural fighting is alredy underwhelming, it only works (well?) in animal form due to the passive % speed they get.

How about something different :

Passive : (to all characters,autogrant at lv 1) When fighting with a one handed melee weapon and anything on your other hand that isnt another weapon, you gain +10% melee damage.

First Feat : When fighting with a one handed melee weapon and anything on your other hand that isnt another weapon, you gain +30% melee damage.

Second Feat : When fighting with a one handed melee weapon and anything on your other hand that isnt another weapon, you gain +60% melee damage.

This is the crazy part: someone is going to accuse you of proposing something "over powered" when the truth is that +60% is still 20% behind a TWF's 1.8 attacks AND THATS IF THEY WERE USING PLAIN +1 WEAPONS... the reality is the TWF has .8 more attacks to get on crit (Dragons Edge and Crippling flames) procs, more bursts, more Heartseekers, more Lightinging II strikes, more neg levels' and stat drains, righteous red augment procs etc. etc.

This fundamental flaw in SWF has not been addressed by the Dev's or responded to when brought up on the PC forums. All putting a buckler in your off hand does is nearly half your DPS potential...

[Mryal]

This is the crazy part: someone is going to accuse you of proposing something "over powered" when the truth is that +60% is still 20% behind a TWF's 1.8 attacks AND THATS IF THEY WERE USING PLAIN +1 WEAPONS... the reality is the TWF has .8 more attacks to get on crit (Dragons Edge and Crippling flames) procs, more bursts, more Heartseekers, more Lightinging II strikes, more neg levels' and stat drains, righteous red augment procs etc. etc.

This fundamental flaw in SWF has not been addressed by the Dev's or responded to when brought up on the PC forums. All putting a buckler in your off hand does is nearly half your DPS potential...

I actualy toned down the values thinking id get a ton of people saying OP OP OP.Comparing to TWF is.Idk, unfair? TWF has always been way ahead of any other fighting style (excluding bows with furyshot since that is bug exploiting and i do not consider it valid).But you bring a good point, all chances to proc effects should be higher on one handed fighter - but then again, the chances to proc effects should have been higher on THF aswell, and its been a long long time that the game has been out and this never happened.Truth is there has never, at any point, been any balance between TWF and any other fighting style.
Peraphs now is the time right? All weapon effect chances to proc with 50% more chance on one handed fighting, and seeker like effects with 50% more aswell.Note that im picking a lowe value because one handed fighting implies that youre using something usefull in the other hand (like a shield?).

Consider that most of the existing archetypes that would be using a single-weapon non-thrower are very short on feats - Paladin S&B Sacred Defenders, Weapon+orb Eldritch Knights, and now Swashbucklers as well. The primary exception I see is Stalwart-based S&B Fighters. Perhaps instead of a line of feats, consolidate into a single, powerful feat? They should trigger anytime using a melee one-handed weapon in the primary hand and a non-weapon in the off-hand; any shield should work for it so our S&B tanks can use it meaningfully.

Also, the SWF feat(s) need to create DPS, much like TWF and THF, but in a unique way. Adding Armor Piercing is nice but not nearly enough and in some cases completely irrelevant. Since doublestrike appears to be the current improvement looking at the Sacred and Stalwart trees, the feat line should build on that. At the least adding meaningful levels of doublestrike. More interestingly, and probably a way to help the SWFs catch up in DPS, would be to have the SWF feat also create some way of translating doublestrike into a potential 3rd and beyond strike. Imagine something like a double strike attack being allowed to proc its own doublestrike, up to a maximum of Character Lvl/5 strikes.

One handed fighting seems to be a defensive way of fighting (assuming shield user).Peraphs something on the lines of counter atacking when Dodge chance happens (in addition to what i alredy suggested above) would be a different way of producing dps.To shield users this would be a slight boost, to Swashbuckler bards it could be significant - but then again even swashbucklers would still have a max 30% dodge.Peraphs its time to replace that +5 dodge cap on swashbuckler to a 'you no longer have a dodge cap'.
Its odd that theres no Parry and counter attack on swashbuckler enhancements alredy, isnt it supposed to be a duelist?

[Nibor]

One handed fighting seems to be a defensive way of fighting (assuming shield user).Peraphs something on the lines of counter atacking when Dodge chance happens (in addition to what i alredy suggested above) would be a different way of producing dps.To shield users this would be a slight boost, to Swashbuckler bards it could be significant - but then again even swashbucklers would still have a max 30% dodge.Peraphs its time to replace that +5 dodge cap on swashbuckler to a 'you no longer have a dodge cap'.
Its odd that theres no Parry and counter attack on swashbuckler enhancements alredy, isnt it supposed to be a duelist?

The SWF feats need to be more than a "slight boost" to shield users - the feats need to not only support the Swashbuckler tree but also help the existing problem of sword and board users having insufficient DPS as well. A guard proc upon dodge isn't going to cut it.

[Cardtrick]

The SWF feats need to be more than a "slight boost" to shield users - the feats need to not only support the Swashbuckler tree but also help the existing problem of sword and board users having insufficient DPS as well. A guard proc upon dodge isn't going to cut it.

I couldn't disagree more.

Sword-and-board needs help, yes. But that help shouldn't come in the form of requiring 3 more feats.

That would basically rule it out for melee clerics, favored souls, and paladins -- the classes that really should be using shields most. Requiring 3 feats in addition to the various shield feats they already need is just too much for anyone but fighters.

[Grosbeak07]

the more I thought about it this afternoon the more I think Evasion is needed earlier. I would say put it at the level six core, and at level 20 get improved evasion. This would give this tree some more options for fighters and barbarians

[Munkenmo]

Does Dashing Scoundrel work with handwraps?

[Steelstar]

Does Dashing Scoundrel work with handwraps?

No, because when wearing Handwraps (or when unarmed in general), you don't qualify for the Swashbuckling stance.

[Nibor]

I couldn't disagree more.

Sword-and-board needs help, yes. But that help shouldn't come in the form of requiring 3 more feats.

That would basically rule it out for melee clerics, favored souls, and paladins -- the classes that really should be using shields most. Requiring 3 feats in addition to the various shield feats they already need is just too much for anyone but fighters.

This is why I said in a previous post that the SWF-line should actually be just a single feat - because almost all S&B characters right now are painfully feat starved, and the new Swashbucklers will be no different.

[Nibor]

On the Mark - does this stack with existing Crit Confirmation / Crit Damage enhancements? You already did a pass to specifically line all of those up, and make them all cost the same. And here you've combined both into a single enhancement and kept it at the 1 AP cost, and with a new name.
I'm not really convinced it's overpowering for it to stack, but then I felt letting Tempest/Kensei crit damage stack was also acceptable.

[admiralakbar]

Here's my main critique: in its current form, Swashbuckler offers no unique benefit that would make me seriously consider Bard levels in situations where I wasn't already going to take Bard levels


It should extend on the Bard feel, not support Fighter-wannabees who also sing songs
There are a lot of abilities that seem interesting until you step back and realize that you will still be on a bard. That means a lot of utility and CC, but not a lot of damage and not much mitigation.

Giving a bunch of minor combat bonuses is nowhere near the combat bonuses you get as another class (not to mention the difference feats make). Basically, a swashbuckler would be jumping through more hoops (stance/gear requirements, limited multiclassing, etc) in order to be a slightly less terrible character when not doing the main bard stuff (imho i.e. buffing, CCing, and other support-type functions).

This is the same problem with Warchanter--take lots of minor benefits that add up to the Warchanter still being a terrible DPS character who can also sing songs.


I don't get the whole crit profile thing
This seems to be a big focus of the Swashbuckler kit. I get that we're manipulating the crit profiles, but why? I can't choose weapons that are going to crit particularly hard. If I'm going heavy bard, I can't afford feats to back it up like Overwhelming Crit.

Maybe there's some powerful synergy I'm not thinking of. Paladin/Monk could be interesting but alignment restrictions preclude any synergies there. There's nothing from the core Bard class that synergizes here. There's level draining I guess, but that's better with TWF.

I don't know... crit mechanics are different than they used to be. Some newer effects only work on 19/20s or vorpals, the new ruby eye augments could have been crit-based but they weren't, you don't see mods like bodyfeeder around any more, hold monster + crit is not as good as it was. Crit builds are currently for greataxes and such--not rapiers.

If we're really going down this road, at least give me the option to include Dwarven Axes, Longswords, Bastard Swords, Khopeshes, or something like that.


My proposed focus for Swashbuckler: combat ebb and flow
Make it to where a Swashbuckler Bard is a good DPS option for a while and then they hop back to support/CC. That way I might see a Bard hit my LFM and think "cool!" instead of "hmmm... I guess we can afford some deadweight..."

The doublestrike/doubleshot action boost is a good step towards this. What about exploring options for synergies with abilities like 'Exploit Weaknesses' or 'Sword Dance'. Consider how 'Advancing Blows' from LD encourages a melee fighter to charge into the next group of enemies without pausing to heal to full and how that matches the overall feel of the Dreadnought destiny kit. Make the abilities all tie in with what it means to be a Swashbuckler.

Sooooo, here are some interesting mechanics that might serve this proposed ebb-and-flow theme:

• High-stacking, very temporary buffs gained from avoiding damage for a while
• Things like the "First Strike" feat (but not as terrible) or the recent changes to Quivering Palm
• If we're going with crit profile, add some synergy like stacking sonic spellpower or Enchantment DCs on crit
• Active abilities that give big combat bonuses for a short time on long cooldown. The Bard can reduce the cooldowns by dodging attacks, getting crits, or performing supporting actions like singing a bard song
• Unique bard song effects (doublestrike song? max dodge bonus song? convert a bard song use to an extra action boost (up to once a minute, on demand)?)