The Official Divine Crusader Epic Destiny Thread:

[Leclaire1]

While I'll admit that I haven't had the chance to jump onto Lamma to try this out yet, I like what I see. I've had a bit of a dilemma on my cleric, as I can't seem to find the right destiny for him. He's more of an offensive caster with full raid healing capabilities, but I've struggled to find a destiny I really like. Angel has a lot of nukeage and sp, but there isn't much in the way of hitpoints or defenses. Shiradi has great nukeage augmentation, but has similar problems. I've been running in Sentinel because it pretty much makes him invulnerable, but he has almost no offensive buffs from this and there are no fun clickies, so its a bit boring. It also doesn't help him spellpoint-wise, so while it fulfills my redbar ocd my bluebar ocd is unsatisfied.

I like that this provides both hitpoints and spellpoints, and makes melee viable even for caster clerics. While I prefer to be a caster cleric, it is very nauseating to solo as one as I'm burning through my sp incredibly fast and have no persistent DPS. Furthermore, while angel ups my DPS (as would Shiradi), it does nothing for survivability, and while Sentinel makes me durable, it doesn't help my DPS. If I ran on this my melee would at least be functional (due to base attack increase) so I could supplement my spellcasting some, and the auras would help out with damage as well. This feels like a great cleric destiny for clerics wanting to move towards greater self-sufficiency, and I would definitely consider it for my pally/monk as well.

Also, to other points made here, as a cleric I actually would not want abilities powered by turn undead- I have too many of these from enhancements already and wouldn't want to put any more stress on that ability. I would probably feel the same about my pally/monk since here turns don't regenerate. Turn powered abilities are also limting to other classes without this ability unless the destiny itself grants it, as with Sentinel. Additionally, I definitely agree with putting constitution into the equation. This is the key Warpriest stat in many ways, I can't imagine why it was excluded. I also agree that the DC boost should go down to tier 4. At least make it twistable, albeit with a lot of investment.

[Mryal]

Didnt test on lamania but it seems fine.Might even replace shiradi for my druid specialy for the +2 DCs and the meteor thing.That epic moment decreasing your hp and increasing power seems fun.Keep it on till you die and it reset!I can also make use of all the melee bonuses.

One thing thought : Rework the stackable mechanic so that this doesnt become yet another mindless magic missile spammer ED.Maximium 1 stack per second per source like in Primal.As it stands now it doesnt makes sense that primal only builds its spirit stacks once per second and this doesnt.

BTW i do not think the DC boost should go down to tier 4 or 3.It should stay as 5, preventing people from twisting it.

[Silverleafeon]

Fawn slowly pressed her hand against the wall.
Rough shaped, it appears to have been created by arcane means.
Bending forward, she examined the grass bent over by it, still green.

Brushing her brown hair away from her face, she wonders, "This is new."

A scratching noise above her head knocks some loose stone into her hair;
scowling, Fawn turns upward and sees a small fury face upon the top of the wall,
peeking down.

"Oh, what a cute Panther Cub, with a glowing blue nose!"
Fawn smiles and watches, then hesitantly looks around, "Where is the Mother Panther?"

Shaking its black fur, the Panther Cub look behind Fawn at a gathering in the distance.
Then a determined look comes into its eyes, as if having decided something important,
very important.

The Panther Cub takes a deep breath as if drawing inner reserves; its nose starting glowing
vibrantly blue rays with just a hint of purple and black light wall and the grass clearing.
Bending slightly, the Panther Cub touches the wall, casting a bluish spell upon it.
Jumping down, the Panther Cub shrugs and glides thru the grass towards the gathering in the
distance.

Fawn watches the determined little Panther Cub go, shading her eyes towards the horizon.
"Is that smoke I see? A little Panther Cub running toward the smoke? Curious."

Turning back, Fawn gasped in amazement. The rock wall is no longer, but glass, pure glass.
Touching the smooth edges, Fawn looks right thru the Transparent glass, and sees more
Panther Cubs trotting as fast as their little legs can run.

Three, four, five, even more come straight for the wall.
Reaching the wall, the lead Panther Cub stretches its rust brown furry legs and bounds to the top
of the wall, the jumps to the over side, moving quickly towards the smoke in the distance.

One by one other Panther Cubs follow, each gauging the wall, the surmounting it with grace.
All but the last one, a Panther Cub with brown and white stripes. Fawn tried hard not to chuckle
but failed (what a strange looking Panther Cub, whoever heard of brown stripes?); her chuckle
stopped when the Brown and White Panther Cub bounced against the wall, sprawling on the grass.

Three more times, the little Panther Cub attempted the wall, and three more times, it bounced off.
The last time, it just sat there sprawled on the grass, big solemn eye gazing at fey-touched Fawn.

"Aww, poor thing, you want to go with your friends. Let me help you." Digging into her backpack,
Fawn pulled out a grappling rope. A few swings and a bit of straining then she over the wall, gently
whispering to the Panther Cub, taking it in her arms. The Panther Cub snuggled up against her as
Fawn felt something hard underneath the Panther Cub's neck. Examining this collar with a strange
runic inscription upon it, Fawn tried to interpret it, "One is mine?" No that is not right, "Four is one?",
hmm...better consult with a master on the subject, ruinic translation is not easy, even "Be mine" was
a possibility?

The brown and white Panther Cub began to struggle, and Fawn reached way up, and placed it upon
the glass wall. She could see right thru the Transparent wall to the distant smoke; was that smoke growing
or was it her imagination?

The Panther Cub leaped down from the wall with a clumsy tumbling landing and started moving thru the grass
to follow the other Panther Cubs. Then it hesitated, turning back, its eyes big pools of lonely moonlight,
yearning.

Fawn stared into the Cub's eyes feeling her heartstrings tug, a gentle breeze ruffled her brown hair, blowing it
over her face. "Aww, you want me to follow? Ok, young one, I will follow."

Brushing her hair aside, Fawn smoothed out her red robe, and took up the grappling hook, swinging it in a circle,
the looping it over the wall. Climbing up, the breeze was strong here; sniffing heavily Fawn nodded "That is smoke
and its getting worse."

A few minutes later, Fawn and her "Be Mine" Panther Cub, strode around some rocky outcropping, to find a number of
Horses gathered around a pile of scrolls. They were pawing thru them, as if searching for something? The Panther Cubs
moved among them, grabbing scrolls with their teeth and opening them up. The Panther Cubs took care that the Horses
did not step upon them, but the Horsed seemed intent upon their searching.

Fawn looked around, no one seems worried about the scrolls to guard them, and there were so many, scattered everywhere.
Fawn's stripped Panther Cub searching among the scrolls, picking on up in its mouth and set it at Fawn's leather boots.
It sat there looking up at Fawn with those deep beseeching eyes then begin slowly tearing the ribbon holding the scroll closed.

Smiling and wondering what is going on, Fawn untied the ribbon and unrolled the scroll for her "Be Mine" Panther Cub,
thinking to herself, "Maybe I should call it Valentine? But maybe not, it will probably wander off."

Glancing down as the scroll, Fawn was startled at the great detail of it - blueprints? what ever it is, someone placed a lot of work here.

Looking back at the huge scroll pile, she hesitated. Three rhinos approached the pile, trampling scrolls kicking them around, scooping up
in big heaps then walking off. Glancing in the direction the rhinos went, she noticed the smoke getting blacker. Some village building
obscured the actual fire if fire it be, but the pillar of smoke was unmistakable now.

A bit upset, Fawn rushed over to the scroll pile gathering up several armfuls hoping to protect them. As she passed by a Rust furred
Panther Cub, Fawn noticed a gleam in its eye as the Panther Cub watched the rhinos, was that approval? "What is going on here?"
Fawn thought to herself?

Sitting upon a glass rock and wondering if the blue nosed Panther Cub spell Translucented that rock too, Fawn began studying the scrolls
in detail. Her brown and white striped Panther Cub curled up in her lap purring softly.

Scroll upon scroll, she opened studying them intently. Wonder, looking...

Much puzzled, a bit later, she wondered out loud, "How do I find the Dojo Master? I need to speak with him about many things."
A tall shadow loomed over her, as a green metal sign and a calendar dropped at Fawn's feet. Picking up the green metal sign,
she found a mix of arrows pointing in a crazy circle. Standing up, Fawn curtseyed to the Giraffe, and called out "Thank you!".
The Giraffe nodded to Fawn as it sedately strode off towards the woods opposite the village quite confident in its bearings.
Smiling Fawn flipped thru the calendar, it was for this year, and full of Horse pictures.

Sitting back down, Fawn set her "Four is one/Be mine/??" Panther Cub back upon her lap, picking up a new scroll and studying it
slowly. "Was this aura's radius 50% bigger than the width of a dragon? What of a clump of giants, was this aura's radius bigger
than that? 100 plat says its too small, what do you think Panther Cub? Want to bet me?"

But the Brown and White Panther Cub stretched, yawned, and rolled over as if to say, "I'm not taking any foolish bets."
Smiling, Fawn scratched her Panther Cub's ears deeply reading, while the Panther Cub purred. Fawn shook her head as smiled,
then glanced at her pile of scrolls, so much to read and so little time to think it over.


Metal clanged and rattled , startling Fawn. Jumping up with a start, Fawn looked noticed the setting sun.
"Four is one" Panther Cub continued slumbering. In front of her, a dozen kobolds scurried about a wagon loaded down.
Two owlbears paused from pulling the wagon, as the Kobold atop the driver's seat swacked and quippled with a heavy
draconic accent, "Pick them up, all the pitchfolks - don't leave any behind."

Three kobolds gathered the pitchfolks up, tossing them high upon the wooden wagon. Fawn overhead the closest one
say, "Kobold eats fresh rats tonight." Another one proudly held a pitchfolk over his head, "My pitchfolk is bigger than your
pitchfolk." The third one smiled craftily, "Foreman know best, we make big profit selling pitchfolks in village! Foreman
see smoke and hear the whispers. Soon, he say, soon, Foreman get promotion."

Fawn watched in amazement as the Owl Bear drawn carriage lumped on. Was it her imagination, or did a Kobold whisper,
"Shinnies, we get shinnies later, much later during the confusion.

The Rhinos returned for more scrolls, scoping them up, then stamping back to the pillar of fire in the distance.
It was larger now, much larger, she was sure of it! Yawn, she glanced at the moon overhead, and laid upon the pile
of scrolls beside her, "I will sleep just a minute or two." Beside her, "Four is one", her Panther Cub purred...

[HuneyMunster]

I see a potential problem occurring with Wrath of the Righteous -3 hp effect. Each time it procs it resets your health bar and then refills the health from 0 to x. This might just be visual display thing, but if not then if you get hit while it refills potentially any monster from CR1 rat can kill your epic divine crusader with one hit.

[GoldyGopher]

Okay,

Spent a decent amount of time (about four hours) playing on Lamannia with the Divine Crusader. The Character in question is a Dex based Elf-Pally with a touch of Rogue and Monk. Old character I keep hoping becomes useful again.

My first problem with this ED is one that been said several times. In the Divine Sphere we have three really cool Epic Destinies; it's too bad 1/3 of each cool ED is spread out in each of the three separate ED . You have the debuff in Divine Crusader which should be put into the Unyielding Sentinel, you have the Spell increases which need to be in the Exalted Angel...
While I totally understand how we got here, what I would really like to see is these three destinies merged together and separated out into the three distinct functions, Caster - Exalted Angel, Defensive - unyielding Sentinel, and Offensive Melee - Divine Crusader. Probably not going to happen at this point, but as a player base that's what I think we want, Plus a pure healing Destiny

Currently I solo a lot in U.S. with some twists moved in. This new destiny at this point doesn't provide enough to change that. There isn't survivability in this tree, not that I think there needs to be, but that how my play style currently is. Dropping in Celestial Champion (T5) and Sword of Justice (T2) rather than Devastating Critical (LD T5) and Whatever the flavor of the day at T2/3 is.

Finally, there is a lot of things not currently implemented, I am specifically speaking to you Purifying Wrath, that appear to be umm overpowered in comparison to other options.

[Matuse]

Consecration = Divine Firewall? Hmmmm...

[rosedarkthorn]

I only logged onto Lam long enough to look at the new ED, but I do have one request. If you haven't already, can you please make this ED work with people who are ranged as well as up close melee? This ED would probably work so much better with my AA cleric build if it did.

[Ziindarax]

You don't have to build up charges to use Wrath, for one. Stacks of Wrath also last 1 minute, so you can carry it between fights more than Blitz. Wrath stacks infinitely (though I think Blitz does too). Wrath also has spellpower while Blitz does not.

So, I guess Blitz is better if you like Dreadnought already, have no issues building up a charge, and can build up enough stacks to bring it between fights.

Actually, blitz only goes up to 10, and the problem with Blitz vs Wrath is this - it's only viable when you solo. It's basically IMPOSSIBLE to sustain full blitz in a party or raid group, especially when they're rolling Manyshot/10k Fury of the Wild Exploit builds. Wrath on the otherhand, is fully sustainable as you can increments even with kill-stealers in the party. The real cost that makes wrath problematic to use, is the health decrements, that bit needs to change into something else.

I am thinking wrath should give larger damage boosts at certain intervals, but in exchange, your accuracy takes a hit (your righteous fury causes you to become more haphazard, as you blindy exact divine retribution upon your enemies):

At 10 stacks, you deal an additional 50% more damage against non-boss mobs, while against boss mobs you deal 10% more damgage.

At 30 stacks, you gain 75% more damage against non-boss mobs, while you deal 30% more damage against boss mobs. You and your party within your aura of purification also gain 10% more healing amplification. However, you incur a -5 penalty to your attack and doublestrike.

At 50 stacks, 150% more damage gainst non-boss, 50% against bosses. You, and any party members within your aura of purification, gain 15% more healing amplification, +3 AC and PRR, and +1 to all saves. However, you incur a -10 penalty to your attack and doublestrike, and your critical range is lowered by 1.

From there on out, the benefits increase by 1% for the damage and amp, and by 2 for everything else. Penalties for attack and critical range are not lowered any further, but doublestrike continues to take a hit, and there's a chance you could start taking damage ALA Vicious effect.

As for the destiny as a whole, I honestly cannot review it in it's totality because I do not know what the unimplemented abilities are, and thus they could end up making the destiny remarkable potent; that's all for now.

[Vellrad]

fawn slowly pressed her hand against the wall.
Rough shaped, it appears to have been created by arcane means.
Bending forward, she examined the grass bent over by it, still green.

Brushing her brown hair away from her face, she wonders, "this is new."

a scratching noise above her head knocks some loose stone into her hair;
scowling, fawn turns upward and sees a small fury face upon the top of the wall,
peeking down.

"oh, what a cute panther cub, with a glowing blue nose!"
fawn smiles and watches, then hesitantly looks around, "where is the mother panther?"

shaking its black fur, the panther cub look behind fawn at a gathering in the distance.
Then a determined look comes into its eyes, as if having decided something important,
very important.

The panther cub takes a deep breath as if drawing inner reserves; its nose starting glowing
vibrantly blue rays with just a hint of purple and black light wall and the grass clearing.
Bending slightly, the panther cub touches the wall, casting a bluish spell upon it.
Jumping down, the panther cub shrugs and glides thru the grass towards the gathering in the
distance.

Fawn watches the determined little panther cub go, shading her eyes towards the horizon.
"is that smoke i see? A little panther cub running toward the smoke? Curious."

turning back, fawn gasped in amazement. The rock wall is no longer, but glass, pure glass.
Touching the smooth edges, fawn looks right thru the transparent glass, and sees more
panther cubs trotting as fast as their little legs can run.

Three, four, five, even more come straight for the wall.
Reaching the wall, the lead panther cub stretches its rust brown furry legs and bounds to the top
of the wall, the jumps to the over side, moving quickly towards the smoke in the distance.

One by one other panther cubs follow, each gauging the wall, the surmounting it with grace.
All but the last one, a panther cub with brown and white stripes. Fawn tried hard not to chuckle
but failed (what a strange looking panther cub, whoever heard of brown stripes?); her chuckle
stopped when the brown and white panther cub bounced against the wall, sprawling on the grass.

Three more times, the little panther cub attempted the wall, and three more times, it bounced off.
The last time, it just sat there sprawled on the grass, big solemn eye gazing at fey-touched fawn.

"aww, poor thing, you want to go with your friends. Let me help you." digging into her backpack,
fawn pulled out a grappling rope. A few swings and a bit of straining then she over the wall, gently
whispering to the panther cub, taking it in her arms. The panther cub snuggled up against her as
fawn felt something hard underneath the panther cub's neck. Examining this collar with a strange
runic inscription upon it, fawn tried to interpret it, "one is mine?" no that is not right, "four is one?",
hmm...better consult with a master on the subject, ruinic translation is not easy, even "be mine" was
a possibility?

The brown and white panther cub began to struggle, and fawn reached way up, and placed it upon
the glass wall. She could see right thru the transparent wall to the distant smoke; was that smoke growing
or was it her imagination?

The panther cub leaped down from the wall with a clumsy tumbling landing and started moving thru the grass
to follow the other panther cubs. Then it hesitated, turning back, its eyes big pools of lonely moonlight,
yearning.

Fawn stared into the cub's eyes feeling her heartstrings tug, a gentle breeze ruffled her brown hair, blowing it
over her face. "aww, you want me to follow? Ok, young one, i will follow."

brushing her hair aside, fawn smoothed out her red robe, and took up the grappling hook, swinging it in a circle,
the looping it over the wall. Climbing up, the breeze was strong here; sniffing heavily fawn nodded "that is smoke
and its getting worse."

a few minutes later, fawn and her "be mine" panther cub, strode around some rocky outcropping, to find a number of
horses gathered around a pile of scrolls. They were pawing thru them, as if searching for something? The panther cubs
moved among them, grabbing scrolls with their teeth and opening them up. The panther cubs took care that the horses
did not step upon them, but the horsed seemed intent upon their searching.

Fawn looked around, no one seems worried about the scrolls to guard them, and there were so many, scattered everywhere.
Fawn's stripped panther cub searching among the scrolls, picking on up in its mouth and set it at fawn's leather boots.
It sat there looking up at fawn with those deep beseeching eyes then begin slowly tearing the ribbon holding the scroll closed.

Smiling and wondering what is going on, fawn untied the ribbon and unrolled the scroll for her "be mine" panther cub,
thinking to herself, "maybe i should call it valentine? But maybe not, it will probably wander off."

glancing down as the scroll, fawn was startled at the great detail of it - blueprints? What ever it is, someone placed a lot of work here.

Looking back at the huge scroll pile, she hesitated. Three rhinos approached the pile, trampling scrolls kicking them around, scooping up
in big heaps then walking off. Glancing in the direction the rhinos went, she noticed the smoke getting blacker. Some village building
obscured the actual fire if fire it be, but the pillar of smoke was unmistakable now.

A bit upset, fawn rushed over to the scroll pile gathering up several armfuls hoping to protect them. As she passed by a rust furred
panther cub, fawn noticed a gleam in its eye as the panther cub watched the rhinos, was that approval? "what is going on here?"
fawn thought to herself?

Sitting upon a glass rock and wondering if the blue nosed panther cub spell translucented that rock too, fawn began studying the scrolls
in detail. Her brown and white striped panther cub curled up in her lap purring softly.

Scroll upon scroll, she opened studying them intently. Wonder, looking...

Much puzzled, a bit later, she wondered out loud, "how do i find the dojo master? I need to speak with him about many things."
a tall shadow loomed over her, as a green metal sign and a calendar dropped at fawn's feet. Picking up the green metal sign,
she found a mix of arrows pointing in a crazy circle. Standing up, fawn curtseyed to the giraffe, and called out "thank you!".
The giraffe nodded to fawn as it sedately strode off towards the woods opposite the village quite confident in its bearings.
Smiling fawn flipped thru the calendar, it was for this year, and full of horse pictures.

Sitting back down, fawn set her "four is one/be mine/??" panther cub back upon her lap, picking up a new scroll and studying it
slowly. "was this aura's radius 50% bigger than the width of a dragon? What of a clump of giants, was this aura's radius bigger
than that? 100 plat says its too small, what do you think panther cub? Want to bet me?"

but the brown and white panther cub stretched, yawned, and rolled over as if to say, "i'm not taking any foolish bets."
smiling, fawn scratched her panther cub's ears deeply reading, while the panther cub purred. Fawn shook her head as smiled,
then glanced at her pile of scrolls, so much to read and so little time to think it over.


Metal clanged and rattled , startling fawn. Jumping up with a start, fawn looked noticed the setting sun.
"four is one" panther cub continued slumbering. In front of her, a dozen kobolds scurried about a wagon loaded down.
Two owlbears paused from pulling the wagon, as the kobold atop the driver's seat swacked and quippled with a heavy
draconic accent, "pick them up, all the pitchfolks - don't leave any behind."

three kobolds gathered the pitchfolks up, tossing them high upon the wooden wagon. Fawn overhead the closest one
say, "kobold eats fresh rats tonight." another one proudly held a pitchfolk over his head, "my pitchfolk is bigger than your
pitchfolk." the third one smiled craftily, "foreman know best, we make big profit selling pitchfolks in village! Foreman
see smoke and hear the whispers. Soon, he say, soon, foreman get promotion."

fawn watched in amazement as the owl bear drawn carriage lumped on. Was it her imagination, or did a kobold whisper,
"shinnies, we get shinnies later, much later during the confusion.

The rhinos returned for more scrolls, scoping them up, then stamping back to the pillar of fire in the distance.
It was larger now, much larger, she was sure of it! Yawn, she glanced at the moon overhead, and laid upon the pile
of scrolls beside her, "i will sleep just a minute or two." beside her, "four is one", her panther cub purred...

tldr

[Vellrad]

Epic levels only give 1/2 BAB, so this frees a spell slot for FvS/Clerics(divine power) and lets Pallys keep their full BAB into epic levels without needing clickies or a pretty high UMD for Tenser scrolls. It's pretty nice IMO.

IMO, this ability is full of meh.
It completely duplicates warpriest enhancement, which is not cool.

[Violith]

IMO, this ability is full of meh.
It completely duplicates warpriest enhancement, which is not cool.

and, everyone has the warpriest tree now? epic destinies, while loosely based off of the classes, arent meant for only that class but rather the majority of them, so one ability that mimics an enhancement tree isnt bad, especially when its doing more, even for those who have that enhancement.

Glad you can't kill yourself with Wrath siting at 200 stacks at typing, portals seems to clear all stacks though, kinda sucks. Not the best Epic Moment, but not the worst, can always guarantee some DPS increase, probably around 20 on average.

how cant your kill yourself? it says stack indefinately, which I would assume would also include the -hp portion. And... portals clears it too? Thats odd since the releases notes mention of fix for portals in quests so that they dont reset epic destiny charges.

[Infiltraitor]

Celestial Champion : +1 critical threat range for all Attacks.
Can we get a confirmation if this works with handwraps and wild shape?
Anyone taking bets?
Confirmed not working.

Also, Consecrated Ground is killing NPC characters in Eveningstar.

[Coldin]

Celestial Champion : +1 critical threat range for all Attacks.
Can we get a confirmation if this works with handwraps and wild shape?
Anyone taking bets?

Doesn't appear to work with anything so far, at least not on my Falchion user.

[Rathic]

it's a good place to start but I would mirror the ditching of the -3 hp. also celestial bombardment needs to have its dc based off wis OR cha. I realize this might create too much synergy with fire savants but many melee divines dump wisdom

[Gratch]

it's a good place to start but I would mirror the ditching of the -3 hp. also celestial bombardment needs to have its dc based off wis OR cha. I realize this might create too much synergy with fire savants but many melee divines dump wisdom

If you include CHA for sorcs you need to include INT for Arties/Wizzies.... even if the intention is to include CHA for Palys that dump WIS (which most do).

[FlaviusMaximus]

I don't think the Stand and be Judged stun DC is going to be high enough. 30 + wisdom modifier means...what... (not really sure what a super high wisdom score is nowadays) if you have a 60 wisdom it means a 55 DC? Unfortunately the DC is going to make it fairly useless in real difficulty settings as is. Also, the DC should either be wisdom or charisma based to allow Clerics, FVS, and Paladins more build options.

Wisdom/Charisma modifier + 30 + stun/tactical bonuses might work.
Wisdom/Charisma modifier +30 + 1/2 character level might work as well.
Wisdom modifier + Charisma modifier + 30 is a third option, although I like this one less because I think DC might still be a little low.

Giving this ability a useful DC would go a long way toward making melee'ing more feasible in EE's. I mean there is nothing stopping someone from playing a melee in EE's right now, but there is a reason why Shiradis and Monkchers are so prevalent. I hope the opportunity to make a new, useful tactical ability isn't missed, because this ability would be a real help if the DC was altered.

[Drwaz99]

fan-fiction *snipped*

Um, what does this have to do with the new destiny? There's a section of the forums for fan fiction.

[delduath]

Just a general comment.
Please use this new destiny as an opportunity to create different and viable ee builds. I don't think there needs to be more abilities that make magic missile and monkcher builds even better.

Giving healers more melee and divine melee more punch and survivability, ecouraging grouping and buffing, those would be good goals.

The new AoP and wrath sounds promising, interesting and fun.

It would be disappointing though if the stacking mechanics made magic missile and manyshot builds the most powerful option with this destiny.

How about using turn undead, lay hands, and smite some more. Or some melee charging AoE or ranged attack option, just something not spell point based, not kiting based.

Fwiw I do play Shirdai mm and monkcher builds... so nothing against them. Just they don't need more options...

[Book_O_Dragons]

I believe that all the DCs in this tree should remain wis only. Going back to the D&D 3.5 rulebooks the saves of almost all divine spells are wisdom based (spirit shaman and shugenja from complete divine are the only exceptions I can find but they have radically different systems of magic) and arcane spells may use either intelligence or charisma based on whether the spells are prepared in advance or spontaneously cast. Spells per day usually use the same ability as DCs except for spontaneously cast divine spells which use charisma.
I just feel it to be going too far from the game's PnP roots to add charisma to the save DCs.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Fawn slowly pressed her hand...

Whoa boy.

This is entrapment, I know it is. Well I'm not getting banned today.