Tempest - OTWF, TWB and TWD

[Vargouille]

This penalty can therefore become quite significant against anything that has equal or higher AC than your to hit, the difference is the same as 10% of the targets AC score.

In short there are 27 cases up to 100AC in which it matters for my to hit of 71, 7 of those a 71 has 5% more chance than a 69, so that's a 26% less misses on those attacks that can miss. Or in total an increase of 7% to hit which isn't 2% at all.

Hmm, I made a spreadsheet with the numbers, trying to prove you wrong. I messed around with a lot of numbers, but it does seem like your case is pretty general in effect. I still loathe the new system (besides which, it has a load of bugs), but it it not as bad with to hit as I thought.

Will have to amend my position on this. OTWF is indeed still a good choice. I let myself be misled by a simplistic calculation, and this led to a wrong conclusion.

Good catch, and thank you for putting this straight

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

[maddmatt70]

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

Any chance you can make us happier by giving us real numbers to play with. More then just kill count. Number nerds would rejoice - instead its sift through the tea leaves and hope for the best.

[Meetch1972]

Any chance you can make us happier by giving us real numbers to play with. More then just kill count. Number nerds would rejoice - instead its sift through the tea leaves and hope for the best.

In terms of the XP report, I'd love to see that! And I fear it at the same time...

A breakdown including HPs dealt and HPs healed (including rest of the party) as well as straight kill count would be interesting, and useful... for figuring out who to boot out of the failed elite <insert boss beatdown here>. It does limit my future piking plans, should it happen...

[AbyssalMage]

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

Mind point me to a link with the AC and To-Hit numbers? Anyone honestly. Last I seen was the graph/table provided before the switch and from all reports, even that changed before it went live

I do remember somewhere that reducing a NPC's AC was more beneficial than raising your To-Hit number (after a certain point, forgot where the diminishing return happened) but I never saw those tables.

O'well, eventually this stuff will be verified and placed in a conspicuous place for everyone to look at.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Mind point me to a link with the AC and To-Hit numbers? Anyone honestly. Last I seen was the graph/table provided before the switch and from all reports, even that changed before it went live

I do remember somewhere that reducing a NPC's AC was more beneficial than raising your To-Hit number (after a certain point, forgot where the diminishing return happened) but I never saw those tables.

O'well, eventually this stuff will be verified and placed in a conspicuous place for everyone to look at.

The formula is (your-to-hit+10.5)/(2*target's-AC)=percentage you roll a d20 against
if you are proficient with the weapon you are wielding, you add 25% to that.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor_Class

if you look at that graph, and add 20%(25% for proficiency, and take away 5% for auto-miss on a one), you get the totals.

All in all, this seems to be accurate with in my experiences. Of course, with out knowing the exact armor totals of enemies, it makes it more difficult.

[SiliconShadow]

Mind point me to a link with the AC and To-Hit numbers? Anyone honestly. Last I seen was the graph/table provided before the switch and from all reports, even that changed before it went live

I do remember somewhere that reducing a NPC's AC was more beneficial than raising your To-Hit number (after a certain point, forgot where the diminishing return happened) but I never saw those tables.

O'well, eventually this stuff will be verified and placed in a conspicuous place for everyone to look at.

The basics of the adjustment was Dodge and armour values changes on different types of armour to reflect the armour.

The AC and to hit remain the same, but levels of AC have been adjusted.

By reading the release notes combat section of update 14 and the Armor Class Wiki page you can get an overview of the alterations.

Because destruction removes a % of the targets armour then your to hit and the targets armour value play a role into the benefits of each 1% of that reduction.

4% of 100AC target is 4ac, as we can clearly see 4ac is the breakpoint in a die roll, so for 100AC 4% reduction is a 5% addition to hit. When AC is below this, the reduced amount is only effective where it goes over the break AC breakpoint to the next die step on your to hit allowing you to hit on a lower number.

In practice:
Player: Has a 40 to hit and the target has 51AC
There is a 51% chance to hit the target which is rounded to the nearest die step on a D20 to 50% but the target has had a 4% reduction to AC which brings it down to 49AC bringing it up a 54% rounded to a 55%, so now he can hit on a 9 instead of a 10.

Player 2: Has a 45 to hit and is hitting the same target of 51AC, being under the same effect the target has an effective AC of 49AC Originally the target has a 58% chance to hit rounded to a 60%, but after the reduction in AC he has a 60% straight, however this does not effect his to hit score.

Player 3: He is totally underpowered for the instance and has a +20 to hit, however this same reduction changes his to hit only by 1% down and against the target his hit goes from 27~28% meaning he will hit on the same die step regardless.

As you can see the to hit chance is not linear, infact the higher the to hit the quicker you need more AC to be hit less than you did before. 10hit vs 10ac is 100% hit, 10hit vs 20ac is 65% to hit, 22hit vs 22 AC is a 90% to hit to 22AC vs 44hit is 45% to hit. This is because the to hit is modified by an additional 25%, meaning as to hit grows you need to scale the AC up at the same rate for it to be as effective. So with this in mind we can see you can 100% to hit 10ac with 6 to hit score, but it takes 21 to hit to hit a 20ac and to 100% hit a 70ac you need a hit score of 99. and a 150ac requires a 230 to hit to 100% hit all the time.

Dodge is a flat rate and doesn't scale like this, meaning 6% is more powerful than 3% no matter your level, but at lower levels AC is more important because it is more effective.

[B0ltdrag0n]

The basics of the adjustment was Dodge and armour values changes on different types of armour to reflect the armour.

The AC and to hit remain the same, but levels of AC have been adjusted.

By reading the release notes combat section of update 14 and the Armor Class Wiki page you can get an overview of the alterations.

Because destruction removes a % of the targets armour then your to hit and the targets armour value play a role into the benefits of each 1% of that reduction.

4% of 100AC target is 4ac, as we can clearly see 4ac is the breakpoint in a die roll, so for 100AC 4% reduction is a 5% addition to hit. When AC is below this, the reduced amount is only effective where it goes over the break AC breakpoint to the next die step on your to hit allowing you to hit on a lower number.

In practice:
Player: Has a 40 to hit and the target has 51AC
There is a 51% chance to hit the target which is rounded to the nearest die step on a D20 to 50% but the target has had a 4% reduction to AC which brings it down to 49AC bringing it up a 54% rounded to a 55%, so now he can hit on a 9 instead of a 10.

Player 2: Has a 45 to hit and is hitting the same target of 51AC, being under the same effect the target has an effective AC of 49AC Originally the target has a 58% chance to hit rounded to a 60%, but after the reduction in AC he has a 60% straight, however this does not effect his to hit score.

Player 3: He is totally underpowered for the instance and has a +20 to hit, however this same reduction changes his to hit only by 1% down and against the target his hit goes from 27~28% meaning he will hit on the same die step regardless.

As you can see the to hit chance is not linear, infact the higher the to hit the quicker you need more AC to be hit less than you did before. 10hit vs 10ac is 100% hit, 10hit vs 20ac is 65% to hit, 22hit vs 22 AC is a 90% to hit to 22AC vs 44hit is 45% to hit. This is because the to hit is modified by an additional 25%, meaning as to hit grows you need to scale the AC up at the same rate for it to be as effective. So with this in mind we can see you can 100% to hit 10ac with 6 to hit score, but it takes 21 to hit to hit a 20ac and to 100% hit a 70ac you need a hit score of 99. and a 150ac requires a 230 to hit to 100% hit all the time.

Dodge is a flat rate and doesn't scale like this, meaning 6% is more powerful than 3% no matter your level, but at lower levels AC is more important because it is more effective.

Your assessment is correct in spirit and numbers but not entirely accurate in math as you can never hit 100% of the time.

The forumla for the closest thing to autohitting is 95%=(tohit+10.5)/(2* target AC) +25% for players assuming weapon proficiency.

rewritten:

1.4*Target AC -10.5 = Needed to hit Score.

[Teh_Troll]

1.4*Target AC -10.5 = Needed to hit Score.

After seeing this in action for over a year . . . all i have to say is there is no way in hell the formula actually works like this.

[SiliconShadow]

Your assessment is correct in spirit and numbers but not entirely accurate in math as you can never hit 100% of the time.

The forumla for the closest thing to autohitting is 95%=(tohit+10.5)/(2* target AC) +25% for players assuming weapon proficiency.

rewritten:

1.4*Target AC -10.5 = Needed to hit Score.

The formula you worked out is wrong the formulas are as below and don't work when rewritten as you tried:

• Monster’s chance to hit: (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2)
• Player’s chance to hit: (Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 25%, rounded to nearest 5%

All I didn't say was of course you always miss on a 1, sorry tired I shouldn't presume people have that as a given.

[oradafu]

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

As for the mis-information about AC and To-Hit (and I'll throw PRR and Dodge in there also), it would probably help if we had a Game Guide that explained things for us.

Actually with some of the upcoming changes for various things (TR/Epic TR, Secret Doors, XP, Enhancement trees), it might be a good idea to add more articles in the Game Guide for new players and even vets.

https://www.ddo.com/en/game/game-guides

[SiliconShadow]

As for the mis-information about AC and To-Hit (and I'll throw PRR and Dodge in there also), it would probably help if we had a Game Guide that explained things for us.

Actually with some of the upcoming changes for various things (TR/Epic TR, Secret Doors, XP, Enhancement trees), it might be a good idea to add more articles in the Game Guide for new players and even vets.

https://www.ddo.com/en/game/game-guides

We have our own community resource for this info http://www.ddowiki.com