Epic Level & Iconic TR

[Enoach]

I would sure like more information and clarification on Epic Advantage.

Based upon what I'm reading a character the does a Heroic TR but has all 11 EDs at Level 5 would in theory get an 11 Level Advantage (5 ranks per level)

When do those extra levels kick in? At creation? (which would be Trading 16.5 million Epic XP for 1,174,500 Heroic XP) or will this be in the form of Stone(s) [i.e. stones broken out as single levels or stones broken out by ED potentially giving them different values] which can be employed at any time by a character

If implemented as multiple stones it would open up their use again at Epic Levels allowing us to recoup ED XP for some of the Epic Destinies. Which would also potentially allow the Ottos box stone 8 to 15 Jump to still be valuable.

Next on the Bonded EDs, do we still get Epic Advantage for these? I ask because it appears to me we get to keep the ED XP for bonded, but it was not clear if they will still count towards Epic Advantage.

Next How will bonded EDs effect ED starting points. Example I start in the Divine sphere on US, but move and Max out LD and do the steps to Bond LD, when I TR and Loose all of the ED XP that is not bonded will I have both US, LD and SC as options to select as an Active Epic Destiny?

[Teh_Troll]

I didn't miss it. I addressed that in my post above the one you responded to. While I don't agree with the design decision per se, if this is implemented I'd simply choose not to HTR my characters with lots of EDs rather than quit playing.

That's my plan as well, but I LIKE TRing for the heck of it and don't want that option taken away.

If a change to a feature is so bad the only recourse is to not use it . . . that change needs to not be implemented.

Have Heroic TR not touch EDs and I don't think anyone else will care about any of the other changes.

[Grosbeak07]

Basically there is not enough information here to make a really informed decision if this is bad or not.

We just don't have enough details.

Losing ED xp is bad.. unless I'm getting something awesome in return.

Heroic TR should not be touched at all.

Basically we have a dev post with few details (more generalities) followed by 22 pages of player speculation.

I won't get worried until the stuff hits Lamannia. Then it will become real!

[Teh_Troll]

Basically there is not enough information here to make a really informed decision if this is bad or not.

yes there is. it's black and white, we lose ED XP on heroic TR.

That needs to change, but as things are there is enough information for this to be horrible.

[Drwaz99]

Not too sure what this might mean, but Glin post this on twitter yesterday. My interpretation is that they haven't gone past the brain storming stage yet (ha! like they think things thru as of late). I have a sneaky suspicion that this was used to drum up a ton of attention and bring people to the forums and is a long way off if it indeed has not gone into development yet.

Erik DDO ?@producerglin 13h

There's a ton of detail in the proposed ETR that will be realized over time. The only fettered detail is development is not started.

[Coyopa]

yes there is. it's black and white, we lose ED XP on heroic TR.

That needs to change, but as things are there is enough information for this to be horrible.

This is absolutely correct. Also, Teh_Troll's previous post wherein he speculates that if heroic TR does not impact epic destiny experience that people will calm down is also true for nearly 100% of the people here. I know it is for me. Leave me the option to leave my destiny experience in tact *and still* be able to TR back to level 1 on occasion and I will be happy to continue playing, continue paying, and continue enjoying the characters I have invested so much time and effort into.

Let me choose when and if my epic destiny experience gets wiped. That is all I ask. Then, the people who want to participate in the new system can do so. I may even eventually want to participate, but let me choose when or if I do. The same as you did with the new augment system. You didn't take away my hard-won augments from before the new system. Why would you take away my hard-won destiny progress?

[Postumus]

Well, fair enough.

I've always played this game - both MMO and P&P versions - for sheer entertainment. "Winning", however it is defined, has never really been a goal for me. The elation it provides is fleeting and mostly ephemeral considering there is no discernible completion point. I take pleasure from little victories along the way. If there was a definitive ending, I'd lose the opportunity to do that.

To each, his own.

Thank you for the candid response.

I also play for sheer entertainment (like all games I play), and for me progression is a key component of that entertainment. That's why when the cap was 20, I'd just TR rather than grind end loot to play 'end game' to grind end loot. Gear acquisition is not progression to me.


In many ways, ED acquisition feels like gear acquisition to me. Unlock more EDs to play EE content to acquire EE gear... bleah. Once I hit 25 I am ITCHING to TR. I have only two characters who I have left at 25 for more than a couple of weeks: my crafter, and my monk. My monk is the only character I have where I have unlocked more than 5 EDs.


So for players like me, I really don't see these changes being an issue. For maxers and end-game-grinders, I can see why they would be upset, because to increase their power they have to take a big step backwards and re-grind a lot of stuff.

[GauArrowny]

I read through Glin's summary yesterday. It seems I misread things but now that I have a fresh mind and several people have clarified the specifics. At first I thought it might have been a typo but it seems now that it wasn't.

First of all, I completely disagree with heroic TR affecting ANY of the destinies. Like now, you get to keep all destiny xp intact when doing a TR. Similar to you keep crafting levels. It's way too much of a grind to forfeit millions of xp to get compensated with approximately 1 million maximum. It doesn't even get you up to where leveling even gets difficult. I understand you'll be making adjustments but we've yet to see what those look like. Heroic should remain heroic and not affect anything epic.

With regards to ED TR, I find forfeiting your ED xp again not a feasible option. I would not care to level any more than one destiny before TR'ing. With an ED TR, I would think I would be forfeiting one destiny to earn a past life feat for that destiny, not forfeiting unrelated destinies. Starting back at level 1 I can accept. I'd rather start at level 1 rather than giving up the 3 destinies I've maxed to get level 4. Just not worth it. If this goes ahead, I might as well stay in my main destiny and ignore getting twists at all just in case I do a TR after the expansion.

Another thing about the Epic 'Dis-advantage' is it makes fore more unequal-ness with TR trains. Some people may grind out a few destinies when they cap, some may not. Then when they TR they'll not start at the same level. Yes they may have the option to bank levels until their friends catch up but they lose all their ED xp for nothing. Also, as a personal example, my wife is VIP. I am premium. I generally play more often and have more toons to compensate so we can stay relatively equal for levels. Now that we've capped, her xp bonus is getting her ED's filled quicker. We'll be TR'ing in the upcoming months. If we wait too long, she'll be several levels ahead of me with me struggling to keep up. It's just not in my best interest to wait to TR or even TR again after the expansion.

[Postumus]

Not too sure what this might mean, but Glin post this on twitter yesterday. My interpretation is that they haven't gone past the brain storming stage yet (ha! like they think things thru as of late). I have a sneaky suspicion that this was used to drum up a ton of attention and bring people to the forums and is a long way off if it indeed has not gone into development yet.

Good post. I think a key thing to remember here, and it is something they mentioned on DDOCast this week, is that this proposed changes isn't even scheduled to be addressed in 2013.


So the threats to quit and doooooom responses are extremely pre-mature. And according to a good 1/4 of the posters in this thread, DDO isn't even supposed to make it that long, so no worries, right?

[CaptainSpacePony]

I like to TR. I TR to try different styles of play and learn other aspects of the game. So I've maxed all the Destinies, when I turn, I gain 55 Heroic ranks, or starting at level 11. That's pretty darned deep in the learning curve. This is a bad idea, because, depriving me of those learning experiences early on means that I can really make a complete futz of my build. People expect you to have some idea of what you're doing by that level.

Proposed Solution: Turn "Heroic Advantage" into an experience stone worth 1 million experience, bound to character, usable any time between level 1 and level X. Please don't deprive us of the early learning opportunities.

Was anyone complaining about the TR system? Other than allowing iconics to participate and the lack of good experience quests toward the end?

I the XP Stone proposal is brilliant.

Yes, I and others were complaining. The TR system has been completely out of synch with the end game since the cap was raised to 25.

[Teh_Troll]

So the threats to quit and doooooom responses are extremely pre-mature. And according to a good 1/4 of the posters in this thread, DDO isn't even supposed to make it that long, so no worries, right?

This is not pre-mature d00m at all. The proposal of losing ED XP on Heroic TR is that bad.

I'd like this game not to fold because it's still a heck of a lot of fun, this change going through will not help that.

Will a change make the game stronger, more fun, and more likely to retain old players and new ones? if so it is a good change.

What's proposed is not a good change.

[Ancient]

At 22 pages, my reply/feedback is likely to be lost in the bit bucket... but here goes:

I'm not crazy about the system, but some of my biggest complaints aren't about the system directly... as much as it is about the way the changes will magnify problems in other areas of the game.

1. Playing in the "wrong" destiny is not fun. This system multiplies the length of time spent in "wrong" destinies.
2. TR is currently the only way to change race. I have a 2nd life NovaSoul FVS who I maxed out all destinies on. If I don't get the 3rd TR before this goes live, its gone. If I ever want to change race, its gone. How many times do I have to beg for a simple race reinc?
3. 18-20 is too much exp. I know the uber TR train can do it in no time, but the higher my characters get into the teens... the less fun it is. Then all of a sudden at level 20 it gets fun again. I understand that iconic's + loads of ED could get past this, but until there are more choices on iconic's race/class.... its a very narrow answer.

As for the rest, I'll wait to see it on the test server.

[Postumus]

First of all, I completely disagree with heroic TR affecting ANY of the destinies. Like now, you get to keep all destiny xp intact when doing a TR. Similar to you keep crafting levels. It's way too much of a grind to forfeit millions of xp to get compensated with approximately 1 million maximum. It doesn't even get you up to where leveling even gets difficult. I understand you'll be making adjustments but we've yet to see what those look like. Heroic should remain heroic and not affect anything epic.

At first blush, and on only one cup of coffee, I agree. I'm sure some clever players will find a way to exploit this, but for right now I agree and think HTRs should not affect earned EDs.

With regards to ED TR, I find forfeiting your ED xp again not a feasible option. I would not care to level any more than one destiny before TR'ing. With an ED TR, I would think I would be forfeiting one destiny to earn a past life feat for that destiny, not forfeiting unrelated destinies. Starting back at level 1 I can accept. I'd rather start at level 1 rather than giving up the 3 destinies I've maxed to get level 4. Just not worth it. If this goes ahead, I might as well stay in my main destiny and ignore getting twists at all just in case I do a TR after the expansion.

I'm beginning to think not resetting EDs for an ETR but getting the increased power of ETRing is having your cake and eating it too. If EDs don't get reset for an ETR, then Turbine basically hands over more power to the most powerful characters in the game without making them earn it. You already maxed your EDs? Well here's another +2 build points and some extra fate points for you! I don't think that is a good idea.


I think EDs should reset for an ETR, but maybe as another poster suggested, you get to lock in an additional ED per ETR.

[zwiebelring]

Really Turbine? More grind? Even more? I give a tiny rats ass about heroic rank convertion, the whole rince-repeat mechanic is flawed inherently, because of the 'repeat'.

Thank you, I don't have to bother TRing any further. Sounds like I have to decide what final life I want right now.

Ihr seid so blöd wie 3 Reihen Salat. Use google translator, it roughly means 'I love you' if you are too lazy for that.

[knightgf]

After reading about how many players are worried about losing all their epic destiny XP, I have a rather interesting idea:

Rather than losing ALL except one epic destiny XP, the epic destiny sphere that you have currently active will be preserved for all future TR's. This will help mitigate the epic destiny experience lost somewhat. In addition, all epic destinies unlocked with keys of destiny will also be kept for all future TR's; you can even use the keys on currently unlocked epic destinies to preserve them for future TR's!

Thoughts?

[Postumus]

This is not pre-mature d00m at all. The proposal of losing ED XP on Heroic TR is that bad.

Freaking out over a PROPOSED change that is probably a year out, and for one where the dev has actually requested feedback on the proposal (basically doing what everyone on the forums keeps asking for - requesting player feedback), is the definition of premature.

[Teh_Troll]

Freaking out over a PROPOSED change that is probably a year out, and for one where the dev has actually requested feedback on the proposal (basically doing what everyone on the forums keeps asking for - requesting player feedback), is the definition of premature.

Update 20 is not a year out when Update 19 is due in August.

Turbine only responds to torches and pitchforks. Lynch early and lynch often.

Turbine need to think this proposal will cost them money, its the only thing that drives their decisions.

Seriously, your faith in them is baffling.

[toaftoaf]

stop thinkig of our game while youget high, Dont mix drugs and work

[Postumus]

Ok, I think this could work IF ALL OF THE ITEMS BELOW were implemented:

- you grandfathered out all the old grinding by saying that any maxed out ED as of the day U20 hits is automatically bonded
- unbonded unlocked EDs stay unlocked, even if all the XP itself is lost
- fate points are not lost on
TR or ETR

If you are talking about HTRing, then yes. If you are talking about ETRing then NO FREAKING WAY. If someone wants the additional advantages that come with ETRing, he should have to re-start from zero - just like heroic TRing is now.

Maybe allowing the fate points to stay unlocked wouldn't be too OP for ETR.

[Coyopa]

Good post. I think a key thing to remember here, and it is something they mentioned on DDOCast this week, is that this proposed changes isn't even scheduled to be addressed in 2013.


So the threats to quit and doooooom responses are extremely pre-mature. And according to a good 1/4 of the posters in this thread, DDO isn't even supposed to make it that long, so no worries, right?

This is not premature in the least!

Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation.

So, it's all fine they put that information in the DDOCast, but some people (like me) do not watch/listen to the DDOCast and, even if I had, I would have taken this information over that because they wrote it here. However, I will admit I would have questioned which information was correct: the DDOCast or the quote above.