If the game is too easy then . . .

[Silverleafeon]

Or you could just play while wearing mittens. That way when I die in a PUG, I just say, "dammit guys, sorry about the 10%. Mittens."

+1 lol



.

[nibel]

how do u turn off your destiny? i want to do EE's W/O destinys

Reset the destiny points for 24k plat, and don't spend them again, while on a ED with irrelevant autogrants for your class (like magister for your rogue, or Exalted Angel for your arcane casters). If any active autogrant is on the hotbar, remove it.

Effectivelly, you removed your ED.

[Memnir]

who knows it may someday become an official mode of play...

Because this has worked so well for the Permadeath crowd over the years.

[samthedagger]

Epic Elite is still challenging even if you are fully geared and have a good party. I run EE whenever I get the chance because I like the challenge (and the gear in the U15 and U16 packs is awesome).

[fco-karatekid]

Any quest run "nekkid"... I.E. you cannot use anything not looted in the quest, with varying exceptions to taste. You might allow casters a limited quantity of each casting material; Rogues/Arties get a limited number of non +x tools, etc. You never saw such loot sharing in your life!

My first guild used to run nekkid Tempests' Spine when it was the only raid besides VON. As an option we had a drinking game concurrent, one shot-rule being the clerics having to do a shot every time someone died. We put many a healer under the table

We did this one night - quests, not raids.

You can wear anything that drops - that WAS fun, but obviously not what you want to do all the time.

One player said "man, wish we'd have thought of this before the challenges - these SHOULD be an option and could have BEEN the challenges"

[fco-karatekid]

Because this has worked so well for the Permadeath crowd over the years.

Permadeath ALMOST snagged me, but then I remembered Hardcore Diablo II and how the smallest of bugs could ruin weeks of character development.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Because this has worked so well for the Permadeath crowd over the years.

As a strong proponent of Permadeath, I think this isn't a fair criticism of Turbine at all. I don't want to see a "hardcore" setting added to the game(a la Diablo) because of the myriad of bugs and potential to go linkdead or w/e else. In every other way, Turbine supports us. They say they factor in PD play in their quest designs. They add Permadeath play to one of the 8 core gamer types in the MyDDO panel(the thing you rate 1-5 with). They regularly comment in our achievement threads to congratulate us, like the first time we completed various raids. I am very happy with the level of recognition Turbine gives the permadeath community. They do me proud.

[Phidius]

Will do.

Win

[Memnir]

I think this isn't a fair criticism of Turbine at all.

It wouldn't be a criticism at all, if MajMal had not dangled out a fairly false carrot in his post.

I've also been pretty steady in my saying a "hardcore" or perma-Permadeath server would be a bad idea. I think niche-settings are generally more of a hassle then they'd ever be worth.

That said - I think Maj's comment of someday seeing something as an "official" mode is we just post about it enough is pretty disingenuous and misleading. People have been asking for some kind of "official" permadeath mode since the 05 Beta, and posting about it with some regularity. Ditto any other kind of "hardcore server. It's now nearing the end of 2012... and do you see any of these as sanctioned modes? I sure don't - and have to call BS on MM's post as a result.

Not much of a criticism of Turbine, really... more of a reality check.

[Viisari]

We've started doing EEs with no arcanes or divines. That is fun as hell.

And not very difficult either with a decent group.

Epic Elite is still challenging even if you are fully geared and have a good party. I run EE whenever I get the chance because I like the challenge (and the gear in the U15 and U16 packs is awesome).

Bwahahahahaha

[Postumus]

Artificially increasing difficulty is always interesting to play around with.
On Thief :TDP there was a couple of other ways of playing 'Lytha Style' which was Steal all loot in a level. Don't hurt anyone with any instrument, or any AIs at all, for that matter, and 'Ghost Style' which was the same, but you could never alert an AI to your existence.
Other games have build in modifiers, no rocket launchers, no health, melee only exc..
I say experiment, talk about your exploits and how you play it...who knows it may someday become an official mode of play...

The number of DDO quests designed where you have to 'kill everything in the room' to get the door to unlock or gate to raise really limits the number of approaches one can take to complete a quest. If I charm, sleep, or otherwise incapacitate everything in a room, why do I still have to uncharm and kill everything to advance?


I would LOVE more optional completion opportunities that don't require killing everything as you go or invis running past everything to kill the boss.


One aspect of the Eveningstar rare encounters I like is that sometimes you actually need high skill levels in things like diplo, bluff, or haggle to complete them.

[sebastianosmith]

Not much of a criticism of Turbine, really... more of a reality check.

Would Turbine officially defining permadeath rules - no matter the number of tick-able options - be a "good thing"? I can't see that can of worms ever being opened, let alone sanctioned. The current honor system of most PD groups is truly one of the last bastions of the original P&P spirit.

[Chai]

The game is too easy; for those who want it so. Many players, not all by any means, who come to the forums decrying the ease with which they complete content do not seek for the game to change, but they themselves.

These players whose characters trod the game like demigods do not want a challenge; they avoid it. A true challenge presents the possibility of failure. Not the momentary failure of being unable to complete a quest - explanations can always be found - but rather a failure of control exemplified by not being the "best", even if the title is self-bestowed.

Many of these players who publicly complain about how easy the game has become do so primarily to validate the prowess of their characters, and hence, themselves. They then proceed to rant about how Turbine needs to make things more difficult for their characters. This particular behavior is most interesting. While still proclaiming the greatness of their characters, they are simultaneously admitting they feel they have no control over their environment which, in turn, becomes yet another vector of anger.

When presented with alternative methods of play which for others have rekindled some interest in the game, these types of players will respond with derision, indicating that the state of the game is hardly their responsibility; that the game should conform to their needs as they represent the best of the best. Sadly, this behavior is indicative of feelings of inadequacy and lack of control contained within a bulwark of bravado.

Admittedly, this is a highly simplified view of an issue which likely has more to do with factors external to the game and which, and I wish to stress this, does not encompass the entire population of players who find the game less challenging than they once did. However, the relative anonymity of these forum and in-game exchanges does provide impetus for displaying emotional and personality traits which might otherwise have to be constrained.

We should have compassion for these players. No amount of logical argument will persuade them. No number of suggested play styles will console them. What they desire cannot be found in the game. Perhaps it is better they move along and search for it elsewhere.

Or...

Turbine can continue to balance the game for more than one audience by using the same system they have already used to do so, the Normal/Hard/Elite quest difficulty system.

I dont see alot of experienced players saying Normal and Hard should be tougher. I see them saying ELITE should be tougher, and they get pushed back by people who think brand new players should never experience failure on elite - which is not a realistic standard. Turbine has succeeded for half a decade now balancing the game for experienced players and newer players alike, and they have done so balancing elite for group play only, for experienced players or intermediate players who will work as a group.

There is no bravado whatsoever in saying elite should still be somewhat of a challenge for experienced players because the rest of the game is too easy for them. Theres no bragging rights associated with time spent. Once the newer players spend the same amount of time they will be bored with everything but elite as well. Its also not an insult to suggest that people who cant play elite due to lack of metagaming knowledge (again "time spent" being the measuring stick here) should play hard or normal.

The game CAN conform to everyones needs without stepping on anyone elses toes (it did for 5+ years). This can only really happen when the entitlement mentality disappears. If people keep pushing back saying that elite should just be able to be handedly beaten by undermanned and underexperienced groups, that makes it too easy for the experienced player. Those arguing for this are no less guilty of demonstrating the less disireable personality traits you outlined in your post about those who attempt to push their playstyle views on everyone else.

I see it argued alot that the experienced players are trying to push their playstyle on everyone else. I dont see this at all. How many zergers do you see in casual players threads downplaying their playstyle? I see alot more casual players railing on experienced players who zerg quests, about their playstyle. Open up one of the dungeon alert discussion threads once, and youll see alot of "If you played this game like youre supposed to and stop zerging you wouldnt have this issue" - these are your sacred casual gamers trying to push their playstyle on the more experienced players, trying to shape the game to their expectations, and not giving a rip if elite being too easy takes away from the fun of experienced players.

Feelings of inadequacy? Try feelings of boredom because the toughest difficulties of the game are being balanced so that they can be handedly beaten by ungeared solo players trying to XP to cap who dont want to learn a game by failing until they succeed. The feeling of inadequacy lies in the people who try to two man Running with the Devils on elite, get owned, then come to the boards ranting about how the quest needs to be nerfed so that their two man team (half as many people that elite is balanced for) can beat it. They brought inadequate firepower, inadequate quest knowledge (surprised by the high usage of light spells? -must be new here) and inadequate gear (no evil weapons to break DR, no spell pen gear etc) and expected to just handedly beat the quest on its toughest difficulty. When they cant under those circumstances, they attempt to push their expectations on everyone else and are guilty of all the same things you posted.

[Viisari]

*snip*

Someone has forced Chai to write something agreeable.

This can only mean that the post he responded to is very flawed and wrong in what it tries to argue.

[BitkaCK2]

A simple suggestion for a greater challenge; First Person view only. It sounds easy enough until you're surrounded by mobs with spell effects going off all over the place. Try it and see how long you can make it before spinning that mouse wheel to pull the camera back.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2

[Drekisen]

I just drink a few boilermakers first...makes things quite interesting and I don't have to remove my gear either

[Chai]

A simple suggestion for a greater challenge; First Person view only. It sounds easy enough until you're surrounded by mobs with spell effects going off all over the place. Try it and see how long you can make it before spinning that mouse wheel to pull the camera back.

Just my 2c,
bitkaCK2

People who played EQ for 5+ years will have a competitive advantage. I actually did CITW the other day mostly in first person with my friend looking over my shoulder asking me how I can play like this. Ironically she played EQ with me back then too, and when I reminded her of this, she remembered what playing that game was like under those circumstances.

[sebastianosmith]

Or...

I think you may have missed this part:

...and I wish to stress this, [sic] does not encompass the entire population of players who find the game less challenging than they once did.

My observations were geared towards those players that do not provide any other reasoning than "it's too easy" while steadfastly refusing to make any changes in their characters, style of play or mindset. It's Turbine's sandbox. We just play in it. If the grit is not to someone's liking, well, find another playground.

[Chai]

Would Turbine officially defining permadeath rules - no matter the number of tick-able options - be a "good thing"? I can't see that can of worms ever being opened, let alone sanctioned. The current honor system of most PD groups is truly one of the last bastions of the original P&P spirit.

Right. Most PDers dont even agree on literally what the restrictions should be, which is why there are quite a few different PD guilds. It would be hard to rally up that niche group and make them play all under the same house rules so to speak.

[Chai]

I think you may have missed this part:



My observations were geared towards those players that do not provide any other reasoning than "it's too easy" while steadfastly refusing to make any changes in their characters, style of play or mindset. It's Turbine's sandbox. We just play in it. If the grit is not to someone's liking, well, find another playground.

Naaa, I didnt miss anything. What I did do was show that this issue is a two way street, and not just the fault of one group attempting to push all their expectations on the rest of the players.

If everyone understood it was Turbines sandbox, then this issue wouldnt exist, because Turbine created the Normal/Hard/Elite standard in order to be able to accomodate multiple playstyles, experience levels, and party size etc.