Rogue DPS post U14

[.Revenga.]

And heal amp, extra skill point, feat, versatility 4, adaptability.
Is there better race for a rogue ?

Sadly enough it's a 100% no brainer to go human. I'd really like halfling to be viable again, i liked being halfling.

[Qezuzu]

Barbarians also have to rely exclusively on a few weapons (eSoS, eAG). Even if they're pretty all-purpose weapons. A rogue has more variety; I'm personally fond of dual eGaros' Malices.

I'm hearing that Drow is getting Tempest in the Enhancement pass. Rate of Attack is very important to a Rogue; Drow could become a pretty nice race. Maybe Dwarf if you want better defenses.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Damage boost

K so humans get a temporary increase of +5 dmg. Halfling get a permanent +8 to sneak attack dmg. Think it gets kind of the same when crits are included. Or am i missing something here?

Regardless, i was only trying to see the max. sneak attack dmg i can get. Not sure about the race jet. And quite frankly i'm not even considering humans until i rly can't pull the build off without that extra feat. Swinging between Helf and halfling curently.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I'm hearing that Drow is getting Tempest in the Enhancement pass. Rate of Attack is very important to a Rogue; Drow could become a pretty nice race. Maybe Dwarf if you want better defenses.

I'll prolly tr that toon a couple of times before we get that enhancement pass , but yeah you are right drow would be the best choice in that case.

[.Revenga.]

K so humans get a temporary increase of +5 dmg. Halfling get a permanent +8 to sneak attack dmg. Think it gets kind of the same when crits are included. Or am i missing something here?

Regardless, i was only trying to see the max. sneak attack dmg i can get. Not sure about the race jet. And quite frankly i'm not even considering humans until i rly can't pull the build off without that extra feat. Swinging between Helf and halfling curently.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Boost

It's +25% damage these days. Been a while like that. If you're doing an average 200 damge ( regular+SA) per hit, and you activate damge boost, you're doing 250 damge a hit.

So you're only a factor 10 off for the effectiveness of damage boost. Combined with a haste boost the numbers are insane as the boost scales better with every other increase in damage.

The enhancement update might give intresting stuff indeed, but i think it was already stated that halflings would get assasin tree which makes them even more useless for an assasin rogue. Personally i really dislike drow (their look, the 32p and the evil -2con), i'm very intrested in the changes to the human enh. tree.

[RabidApathy]

K so humans get a temporary increase of +5 dmg. Halfling get a permanent +8 to sneak attack dmg. Think it gets kind of the same when crits are included. Or am i missing something here?

The +5 to damage got changed several updates ago to +25% damage, which includes Sneak Attack damage. And it can be used at the same time as Haste Boost!

So if you're averaging 160 damage a hit, then Human Versatility: Damage would add +40 damage per swing.

EDIT: I got ninja'd

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

wow 25%! Yeah that rly makes a huge difference

Thx for the info guys!

Wiki still shows old data, i'd fix it but i have no human toon and not sure what else got changed there...

[Jaid314]

I'm hearing that Drow is getting Tempest in the Enhancement pass. Rate of Attack is very important to a Rogue; Drow could become a pretty nice race. Maybe Dwarf if you want better defenses.

so far as we know, humans (and half-elves) are supposed to be able to pick from a variety of PrE options. we don't know for sure that tempest will be one of them, mind you, but it's quite possible.

[maddmatt70]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Boost

It's +25% damage these days. Been a while like that. If you're doing an average 200 damge ( regular+SA) per hit, and you activate damge boost, you're doing 250 damge a hit.

So you're only a factor 10 off for the effectiveness of damage boost. Combined with a haste boost the numbers are insane as the boost scales better with every other increase in damage.

The enhancement update might give intresting stuff indeed, but i think it was already stated that halflings would get assasin tree which makes them even more useless for an assasin rogue. Personally i really dislike drow (their look, the 32p and the evil -2con), i'm very intrested in the changes to the human enh. tree.

You can only max out one tree with the enhancement pass so if someone is going for halfling rogue it will not have as negative impact as you put forth here especially if they put some goodies in the mechanic and acrobat trees.

[AegonTargaryen]

Barbarians also have to rely exclusively on a few weapons (eSoS, eAG). Even if they're pretty all-purpose weapons. A rogue has more variety; I'm personally fond of dual eGaros' Malices.

I'm hearing that Drow is getting Tempest in the Enhancement pass. Rate of Attack is very important to a Rogue; Drow could become a pretty nice race. Maybe Dwarf if you want better defenses.

Pure fiction. Barbs can use ANY weapon in their arsenal and do sick dmg, regardless of agro. Nothing will change the fact that rogue dps is entirely reliant on NOT having agro. once that changes, the rogue in question's dps drops to nada.

I am very pro-barbarian, but I am not anti-rogue. I am also not a "rogues are just a bunch of low hp, low dps trap monkeys" person either. I recognize better than most the dps potential for rogues, but tooting your own horn by saying "rogues are the best dps in the game" is the same as some nub barbarian saying "I'm the best dps in the game". Rogue dps is, like everything else in this game, at its best situationally, and in the hands of a competent player that knows how to play their toon.

[.Revenga.]

Pure fiction. Barbs can use ANY weapon in their arsenal and do sick dmg, regardless of agro. Nothing will change the fact that rogue dps is entirely reliant on NOT having agro. once that changes, the rogue in question's dps drops to nada.

I am very pro-barbarian, but I am not anti-rogue. I am also not a "rogues are just a bunch of low hp, low dps trap monkeys" person either. I recognize better than most the dps potential for rogues, but tooting your own horn by saying "rogues are the best dps in the game" is the same as some nub barbarian saying "I'm the best dps in the game". Rogue dps is, like everything else in this game, at its best situationally, and in the hands of a competent player that knows how to play their toon.

Yeah so, that's not true. Mostly i end up tanking alot of bosses by the use of double deception weapons and/or an item. These procs are very reliable and work on ANY monster and especially boss afaik. This together with bluff makes me SA any given target. I'm not in the least concerned anymore about aggro these days.

If you read my first post in this thread, you can actually see that rogue's dps is one of the most reliable these days, it's clear you don't play a rogue or have an understanding of their playstyle and perks, i wonder what you're doing in this thread.

I got an esos wielding barb, his dps is good but far behind that of my rogue, he's not at all max'ed out tho. I can believe barb dps comes close to a rogue's, but dps is all a barb has, that's why i prefer playing a rogue. (this is talking about single target dps and not figuring in the epic moment of FotW/LD)

[Therigar]

Nothing will change the fact that rogue dps is entirely reliant on NOT having agro.

Well, this isn't entirely true but when entering into these DPS debates there is no question that the majority of a rogue's damage comes from SA. However, it is usually taken as a given that the rogue will not have aggro and should never be able to get aggro.

If a rogue enters a melee and ends up with aggro then that is proof that they are doing the most damage. We can put away the slide rules and the calculators, dispense with all the computer generated modeling -- if the rogue steals the aggro then they are the one doing the most damage. Period.

Now, there are a very few mobs that operate with a random aggro pattern. The one most people are familiar with is Harry. But, even Harry's aggro is not entirely random. He can be intimidated, for example, and his aggro can be held. So, there really are very few mobs where aggro is going to just shift around completely randomly.

Now, if the barbarian really has the highest DPS then there is no way ever that they can lose aggro to the rogue. So, the rogue never needs to worry about SA not counting -- because it always will.

The mere fact you argue a rogue pulling aggro loses DPS proves that the rogue has the highest DPS. If it did not it wouldn't pull aggro.

So, this is where we discuss survivability. Does the rogue survive long enough to send the aggro packing? With 25% dodge, 20% concealment, 10% incorporeal there is a pretty good chance that it does. Toss in a diplomacy and that weak barbarian madly trying to reestablish aggro with his +35% (or more) threat generation and you go back to the rogue doing all that SA damage once again.

At least it stays that way until the barbarian loses aggro again....

[Qezuzu]

Pure fiction. Barbs can use ANY weapon in their arsenal and do sick dmg, regardless of agro.

The point was that there a handful of weapons that have noticeably greater DPS than any other THF weapon, and those handful of weapons are always used by people who want to know which build has better damage.

TWF doesn't have as much the same problem. Balizarde is likely the winner, but with Rogues' lower base damage, it's still only a small increase.

Nothing will change the fact that rogue dps is entirely reliant on NOT having agro. once that changes, the rogue in question's dps drops to nada.

Not really. Dual eMG+Golden Guile at TWF speed along with bluff can keep a boss in a state of continuous sneak attack vulnerability pretty reliably.

I recognize better than most the dps potential for rogues, but tooting your own horn by saying "rogues are the best dps in the game" is the same as some nub barbarian saying "I'm the best dps in the game".

I never actually commented on which had higher DPS. With epic destinies, there are far too many variables to reliably calculate it anymore.

I really don't care which class does slightly more DPS. Rogue DPS is "very high", Barb DPS is "very high", but you'll probably never be able to give a numeric value to it. Both can do lots of damage and can kill stuff. Rogues have Assassinate, stealth, improved evasion, and UMD so I favor them.

[WruntJunior]

Pure fiction. Barbs can use ANY weapon in their arsenal and do sick dmg, regardless of agro. Nothing will change the fact that rogue dps is entirely reliant on NOT having agro. once that changes, the rogue in question's dps drops to nada.

I am very pro-barbarian, but I am not anti-rogue. I am also not a "rogues are just a bunch of low hp, low dps trap monkeys" person either. I recognize better than most the dps potential for rogues, but tooting your own horn by saying "rogues are the best dps in the game" is the same as some nub barbarian saying "I'm the best dps in the game". Rogue dps is, like everything else in this game, at its best situationally, and in the hands of a competent player that knows how to play their toon.

Let's be fair now. I don't think anyone who's played a sorc recently would say anything else is the best dps in the game.

As far as melee dps, I've seen nothing that pushes rogues off their dps pedestal, especially when there are options that allow sneak attack damage while having aggro. Even my not-very-well-geared rogue does a lot of damage for the level of gear he has. I'd say EDs made melees a lot closer, though, so rogues may not be entirely on the top...but even if not, they're very close to it. Add to that the options that comes with a rogue (improved evasion, saves, umd, etc), and rogues are definitely a strong contender.

As a side-note to the OP, monks have always been a good dps class. Epic Destinies gave them a lot more ways to do a lot of damage (or to clear trash amazingly fast).

[AegonTargaryen]

If you read my first post in this thread, you can actually see that rogue's dps is one of the most reliable these days, it's clear you don't play a rogue or have an understanding of their playstyle and perks, i wonder what you're doing in this thread.

Actually, I was poking around in this thread because I'm considering rolling up a dps rogue. So when I came here looking for dps breakdowns to highlight for my as yet unrolled rogue, I came across some rather anti-barbarian flavored posts, and felt the need to defend my beloved class (a barbarian was the first toon I rolled up when I first started playing this game, so there is a certain level of sentimental attachment there). Rogue is actually the one class I have yet to experiment with (which seems silly, as I have a passion for high dps melee characters).

And good call out on the deception items. I didn't know that they could actually induce SA dmg regardless of agro.

I guess you learn something new every day...

[Anihsod]

"Pure fiction. Barbs can use ANY weapon in their arsenal and do sick dmg, regardless of agro. Nothing will change the fact that rogue dps is entirely reliant on NOT having agro. once that changes, the rogue in question's dps drops to nada."

A rogue can use any weapon and hit for 160ish every hit with 80% off hand for 160ish before any weapon damage. Barbs don't do great dps with any ol' weapon.

Rogues have enough tools to get sneak attacks when they have aggro. When folks talk about taking aggro .. they often think they are doing more damage than the rogue because the rogue isn't taking aggro. People seem forget that rogues are generally running with at least 40% threat reduction. ( at least I do ). SO .. if a rogue does happen to pull aggro off your barb ... he's doing at least 40% MORE damage than you. ( over simplified but the point is valid ).

[AegonTargaryen]

A rogue can use any weapon and hit for 160ish every hit with 80% off hand for 160ish before any weapon damage. Barbs don't do great dps with any ol' weapon.

You just can't let things go, can you?
SOME rogues can hit for 160ish dmg per hit, not all.
ANY class can get an 80% chance for an off-hand by simply taking the full TWF line.
ANY properly rolled barbarian can do excellent dps with ANY weapon. Whereas rogues have SA dmg, barbs make up for that lack with having uber str, which leads to high dmg modifier (on my TWF barb, it is 65 w/ ship buffs, before weapon rolls- 3[1d10], or effects. On my THF barb, its well over 110...). Not to mention 6d6 vicious dmg per hit, 25% dmg boost, AND +3 to their crit multiplier. Do I really have to hop on a barb and screenshot myself beating down some poor drow with a set of clubs of the holy flame just to make this point understood?

Perhaps you should take some advice from someone that's already put their foot in their mouth once in this thread, and just shut up when it comes to classes you obviously know nothing about. As someone in this thread so succinctly put it, this thread is about rogue dps, not (lack of) barb dps.

My apologies to the OP for highjacking this thread. I just have little patience for ignorant, self-superior, anti-barbarian trolls.

[Anihsod]

classes i know nothing about ?? LOL. Charleee ( my daughter's RL boyfriend ) is one the better barbs on my server. We've played countless hours together sitting pretty much side by side. A barb with a korthos weapon doesn't do great dps ... a rogue with a korthos weapon does. A rogue with pair of dull butter knifes is doing 300 damage from SA alone per swing from a Barb. A barb with a dull butter knife isn't doing 300 damage per swing. A non min/maxed rogue can pull aggro off of a min maxed barb from time to time. A non min maxed barb will rarely pull aggro off of a min maxed rogue if the target is blinded. ( not accounting for treason/insight ).

Im not saying rogues are better dps than barbs ... there's way way way too many rogues who drift towards flavor. Put a well built well geared well played barb and rogue next to eachother and the barb is going to do more dps in most situations. None of the above takes ED's into consideration simply because there are too many variables.

"SOME rogues can hit for 160ish per hit, not all" ??? I don't know any who are doing less than 130.

Have youplayed a successful rogue at all??

You are pretending that rogues can't migrate over to the barb ED methinks. And how the hell is anything I've said " anti-barb troll" ??? It would seem to me that you expect nothing short of any other melee to bow to your greatness or something and pretend that rogues aren't competitive dps wise.

In a thread concerning rogue dps is PERFECTLY NORMAL to compare their dps with the recognized top dog of melee dps. Otherwise there's no point at all to talking about dps. If there's no comparison made between the numbers on the screen vs .... something else ( mob's HP, other toons numbers ) then it's a comparison made in a void.

Now, who is it with their foot in their mouth again?

[Anihsod]

After re-re-reading your posts ... it became painfully obvious that you've got way too much ego attached to your barbs "big numbers". Why don't you roll up that rogue you've not tried yet .. cap it and gear it. Then come back and update us about your "anti-rogue" threads.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Post U14 every attack roll except a natural 1 is also a grazing hit, which gets sneak attack...so you don't need to worry about attack bonus as much, at least you won't completely blow if it sucks.