Rogue DPS post U14

[WruntJunior]

Post U14 every attack roll except a natural 1 is also a grazing hit, which gets sneak attack...so you don't need to worry about attack bonus as much, at least you won't completely blow if it sucks.

This change actually convinced me to go dex-based so that when I get around to working on my rogue, I can get the improved sneak attack feat.

[Hobgoblin]

Post U14 every attack roll except a natural 1 is also a grazing hit, which gets sneak attack...so you don't need to worry about attack bonus as much, at least you won't completely blow if it sucks.

not to disagree - but i have a tr'd rogue that i do get sneak attacks, but not on every hit.

dont have a screenie - but it seems like i get something like Graze(sneak), graze (no sneak), graze (sneak)


hob

[Therigar]

not to disagree - but i have a tr'd rogue that i do get sneak attacks, but not on every hit.

dont have a screenie - but it seems like i get something like Graze(sneak), graze (no sneak), graze (sneak)


hob

Not 100% sure, but is it possible that off-hand attacks don't proc the sneak attack damage? (Talking grazing hits here.)

[Hobgoblin]

Not 100% sure, but is it possible that off-hand attacks don't proc the sneak attack damage? (Talking grazing hits here.)

that would make sense.

the other thing would be possible fort (dont remember what i was fighting)

hob

[sephiroth1084]

Well, this isn't entirely true but when entering into these DPS debates there is no question that the majority of a rogue's damage comes from SA. However, it is usually taken as a given that the rogue will not have aggro and should never be able to get aggro.

If a rogue enters a melee and ends up with aggro then that is proof that they are doing the most damage. We can put away the slide rules and the calculators, dispense with all the computer generated modeling -- if the rogue steals the aggro then they are the one doing the most damage. Period.

Now, if the barbarian really has the highest DPS then there is no way ever that they can lose aggro to the rogue. So, the rogue never needs to worry about SA not counting -- because it always will.

Also worth nothing that most rogues have at least some aggro reduction going, while many barbarians have some incite bonuses running, so if a rogue is pulling aggro, they are way ahead on DPS.

The last DPS chart I looked at pre-U14 seemed to have rogues somewhere around 80-100 points ahead of the pack on DPS in ideal circumstances. Have barbarians gotten that much DPS with epic levels (that is, +80-100+the extra 40 or so that Shadowdancer and ISA are tacking onto the rogue's DPS)? I didn't think they did, but it's hard to account for things like Adrenaline.

In non-DPS terms, Assassinate was and still is rather useful, even when running with a good party. Jump, stealth, Assassinate works well, and can often kill two enemies at a time. I know that even with good groups, I'm leading kill counts by miles due in large part to my frequent use of Assassinate (it's basically always on cooldown), and that's ignoring the fact that every Assassin is wielding vorpal weapons all the time (as long as they have SA), and that Shadowdancer has gotten/is getting even more options for killing monsters with Executioner's Strike (meh), Shadow Manipulation (good if you aren't in a hurry to want them dead, especially since it doubles as good CC--charm, let them fight for you, then move on when the other stuff is dead and notice the kill count tick up a little while later), and finally Consume, a mimic of the strongest spell in the game (albeit with an even longer cooldown), which can kill groups.

In terms of raw killing power, the only things that compare to the rogue are casters. After that, other concerns come in...whether barbarians slightly edge out rogues for DPS (I'm skeptical), and whether rogues have enough HP to survive after their other defenses (12-25% Dodge, 25% Incorporeal as a SD, Improved Evasion, moderate AC), and whether you're fighting a lot of insta-kill-immune enemies at a time (ie, the situations where glancing blows shine brightest vs. the rogue's abilities).

Ultimately, it seems rather irrelevant which class is the actual top DPS, just that they are close enough that the argument can't be won definitively, and then that you define what the relevant differences are (strengths and weaknesses) of their DPS delivery and other facets. If you just want top DPS, you can just make a choice among barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, and probably monk, based on which you like better otherwise. The only really important outcome of these discussions is in pinning down a target value for how much threat reduction you should be carrying on your rogues. I tend to run with Subtle Backstabbing III and a -20% reduction item (sometimes also Treason for another reducer), and I find that I still pull aggro far too often in groups with good, but not perfectly optimized barbarians, monks, fighters and paladins (less so this last if they are tanky), and my rogue is far from DPS-optimized.

[Jaid314]

This change actually convinced me to go dex-based so that when I get around to working on my rogue, I can get the improved sneak attack feat.

pretty much every single rogue in the game, including the strength-based ones, should be giving up a little bit of strength to get enough dex for improved sneak attack, whether or not they ever pick up weapon finesse.

consider, for example, the "usual" rogue cut-off; 17 dex is required for GTWF, which is what well-built max DPS rogues aimed for previously (note: mechanic crossbow builds and acrobat QS builds can be well-built, but they are definitely not max DPS builds).

that was *usually* done by spending enough points at chargen for 15 dex, and eating a +2 tome. now that we've got the epic changes, i'd say a +3 tome is actually a pretty reasonable assumption now. that means you need to boost your natural dex by 3 to get to the 21 needed for ISA.

so, the "usual" human/helf rogue strength build stat distribution (32 point) would be something like:

str 18 (18 points)
dex 15 (8 points)
con 14 (6 points)
int 10 (2 points)
wis 8
cha 8

give or take.

to make that dex 3 points higher, you have to swap strength and dexterity. so you will have a strength of 15, 3 points lower than previously. what does that cost you?

+1 or +2 to hit (thanks to the changes, not as big of a deal), and +1 or +2 to damage. probably +2 in either case. ISA, however, gains you an average of 10.5 damage. if it's a hard decision whether +2 damage (multiplied by crits, only half to off-hand) is as good as +10.5 damage (not multiplied, full to off-hand), then you must be using different math than me.

of course, this gets even easier if you choose to just spend a level up or two into dex instead of putting every last one into strength.

the simple fact is, when ISA came out, any max strength build that didn't get their dex high enough for ISA is no longer max DPS. max DPS rogue builds may or may not have weapon finesse, but they should *all* have 21 dex with only tomes, attribute points, and level-up points, even if it means sacrificing a bit of strength to get there.

[goodspeed]

Yep, with +3 tomes out and about everywhere, set the base to 16, chow down on one of those and hit up a couple level ups. Unless ur the lucky sob that pulled the plus 4 then 1 lv up. Having a 34 or 36 point build definitely couldn't hurt either.

As far as max dps, hard to tell. Really with so many ways to drop the defensive fort isn't a end all factor. Plus then you have the skills to force SA dmg for a set amount of time, I think it's 5 seconds. If ur a helf u can double down on that.

So dmg definitely isn't the problem, even with the sacrifice everything for dmg barbs still ripping hate. It's the hp gap. Whether ya invested or not, the ld line gives ya a nice chunk of hp, so it's not uncommon to have 800 to 1k hp now. Where as the rog would have I'd say 650 to 700 seems right. Either way when ya have a 300 or so difference, that kinda sets the at ease area a little to wide for me when my ass is relying on masses.

Doesn't get that much easier when ur ripping the attention away from the meat sack so your hp pool is in even more focus. Though that's in a raid setting. Average dungeon wise, rog's da man.

[sephiroth1084]

elf rogue strength build stat distribution (32 point) would be something like:

str 18 (18 points)
dex 15 (8 points)
con 14 (6 points)
int 10 (2 points)
wis 8
cha 8

I'll just point out that if you're looking to spend some level-ups in Dex, it would be more efficient to drop that starting 18 Str. Going from a 16 to an 18 is 6 build points. With those points you could go...
Str 16 (+4 levels) ends at 20 instead of 22
Dex 16 (+3 tome, +2 levels)
and still have 4 points to spend, which could go to Con or Int (I'd go Int for better DCs) or Cha. If you.

Compare to
Str 18 +3 levels = 21
Dex 15 +3 tome, +3 levels
One point higher than the starting 16, but you can move points around into other stats, or you could start with a 17 Str, put 2 in Dex and 1 somewhere else to even up with a tome or something later.

[Jaid314]

I'll just point out that if you're looking to spend some level-ups in Dex, it would be more efficient to drop that starting 18 Str. Going from a 16 to an 18 is 6 build points. With those points you could go...
Str 16 (+4 levels) ends at 20 instead of 22
Dex 16 (+3 tome, +2 levels)
and still have 4 points to spend, which could go to Con or Int (I'd go Int for better DCs) or Cha. If you.

Compare to
Str 18 +3 levels = 21
Dex 15 +3 tome, +3 levels
One point higher than the starting 16, but you can move points around into other stats, or you could start with a 17 Str, put 2 in Dex and 1 somewhere else to even up with a tome or something later.

sure, there's plenty of ways you can do it.

but basically, the main point is that you don't want to focus exclusively on strength for max DPS rogues any more. if you don't have a respectable dex, you simply are not a max DPS rogue build any more, you're playing second fiddle to those who have enough for ISA.

that was to basically demonstrate a "worst case" loss. if you tried to get there entirely from chargen stat allocation, you would be losing 3 points of strength (likely equivalent to +2 to hit and damage, especially for helf and human with their versatility enhancement) to gain +3d6 damage. as i said, mixing in level-up stat points gives even better results than using exclusively the chargen points.

[SSFWEl]

No one mentioned taking LD as ED for a rogue.

I had SD for awhile and then switched to LD. Love it. I am not a number cruncher like Vanshilar (wish I had that brain) but I am pretty sure that with LD my DPS is higher.

With LD you get passive HP, and then add in 4 levels of Con for even more.
Then add in 8, 30% haste boosts and your DPS skyrockets.
Then add in the + crit damage and then then crit multiplier and then advancing blows.
Then take into account that many rogues use rapiers (or keen daggers and swords like Agony) and I am critting every 4-5 blows.
And THEN add in SA...


True, lack of tactical feats for rogue does make some of the tree useless, but that allows you to put 8 points into con.

[.Revenga.]

I pref the FotW tree over the LD tree when you need more hp/less versatility/more burst damage/etc.

The LD tree has alot of skills that are unusable, apart from the epic moment, the strongest point of the LD tree are the cleave attacks. Also you won't be using PA on a rogue anymore. Putting points in con seems somewhat wasted to me, the passive hp gain is sufficient already.

I do twist the extra action boosts.

FotW has the no-brain twist sense weakness in it (you can twist the 15% fort bypass instead) and with brace for impact twist you can take tunnel vision too. You also don't have to dump a single point in stats as there are loads of goodies in the tree. Also this tree favors khopeshes and i use those.

[SSFWEl]

I pref the FotW tree over the LD tree when you need more hp/less versatility/more burst damage/etc.

The LD tree has alot of skills that are unusable, apart from the epic moment, the strongest point of the LD tree are the cleave attacks. Also you won't be using PA on a rogue anymore.

Interesting. I might try that. About time I try something new. However, one big prob is that it seems to depend a lot on raged. that would seem to interfear with healing, i.e. scrolls and dragonmarks.

What ya mean about rogues not using PA? why not? I don't use peshes, although I am str based, I have a host of rapiers/shortswords...

I did mention that some of the tree is useless for rogues with no tactical feats.



thx

[karl_k0ch]

What ya mean about rogues not using PA? why not? I don't use peshes, although I am str based, I have a host of rapiers/shortswords...

Having Precision active against eVelah, Horoth, Sully and eLailat is probably granting more extra damage than PA, unless you have a lot of Fort reducers active.
However, Llolth does not seem to have any Fortifictation which is why I like having PA and Precision on my rogue.

[Jaid314]

Having Precision active against eVelah, Horoth, Sully and eLailat is probably granting more extra damage than PA, unless you have a lot of Fort reducers active.
However, Llolth does not seem to have any Fortifictation which is why I like having PA and Precision on my rogue.

the large (% based) bonus to hit is also a nice thing to have. especially now that basically nobody ever always hits on a 2 any more.

[.Revenga.]

Interesting. I might try that. About time I try something new. However, one big prob is that it seems to depend a lot on raged. that would seem to interfear with healing, i.e. scrolls and dragonmarks.

What ya mean about rogues not using PA? why not? I don't use peshes, although I am str based, I have a host of rapiers/shortswords...

I did mention that some of the tree is useless for rogues with no tactical feats.



thx

The raged for tunnel vision is granted by the rage spell (potion) or by primal scream, so mostly it will be active, tho chugging pots is somewhat exhausting.

About PA, it's simpel math, precision does better then PA at this moment, especially when you don't have any synergies with PA (halforc/being a barb/stuff like that). You can't use both at the same time, so it's precision. Unless you got a spare feat ofc. I do not, preffering stunning blow :-p

[Rogann]

Random dmg numbers(random screenshots) between my (not so max) geared barb and my max geared rogue. Only class specific buffs! Nothing else.

Barb numbers:

Note:Missing 8 SA dmg on first number(tharnes goggles).

Rogue numbers:

Note: SA numbers.


Note: Base dmg numbers.

Counting up the numbers per 1 swing I got:
Barb:282 dmg(Only counting base dmg/frenzy procs/8 dmg from Tharnes that isn't in ss)
Rogue:301 dmg(only counting SA and base dmg numbers)

Of course I didn't include many things such as weapons effects(assuming barb has esos and rogue has lit 2). Many Barb abilitys(considering barbs can spam cleave 70% of the time), and adrenaline. Haven't even gone over crits.

[Mellkor]

the large (% based) bonus to hit is also a nice thing to have. especially now that basically nobody ever always hits on a 2 any more.

I have to disagree with this. Most folks have around a +50 to hit. So thats only +2 or +3 bonus to hit. I know every bit helps, but, I would not call it a 'large' bonus to hit.

[me_TOO]

as far as twists goes what is the thought on going Piercing Clarity vs Sense Weakness?

[Zerkul]

As far as DPS analysis goes i have to remember you guys two common mystakes.

• Damage numbers represent just one part of DPS.
• Momentum Swings and Cleave Attacks GREATLY improves THF DPS (TWF doesn't have such kind of attacks, they do not improve TWF DPS).

Barbarian in Auto Attack is probably inferior to Rogue in Auto Attack but when starting to Auto-Cleave, Barbarian >> is strictly better, and the difference becomes huge.

[me_TOO]

As far as DPS analysis goes i have to remember you guys two common mystakes.

• Damage numbers represent just one part of DPS.
• Momentum Swings and Cleave Attacks GREATLY improves THF DPS (TWF doesn't have such kind of attacks, they do not improve TWF DPS).

Barbarian in Auto Attack is probably inferior to Rogue in Auto Attack but when starting to Auto-Cleave, Barbarian >> is strictly better, and the difference becomes huge.

i believe the discussion was single target DPS... mainly bosses