Raid Timer Byass Store item feedback

[Chai]

Now, to clarify:
I am not saying your definition is incorrect. I am just saying that everyone draws the "pay to win" line differently, which ultimately means there is a significant element of subjectivity.

Correct, but its not the definition of "pay to win" itself that is subjective. Its an argument of degree and not an absolute. How much pay to win is a specific person willing to accept before they change their stance on the issue. It becomes a reductio ad absurdum scenario. Everyone draws the line in a different spot, but the objective fact is: We all do draw that line somewhere.

The issue is many people only comment on the current pay to win topic being discussed. The real issue isnt just the one new item, but that the one new item is being tossed on a pile of already live pay to win mechanics that were inserted into the game in the past.

To a prospective new player trying the game out, thumbing their way through the DDO store, seeing how many items there are that allow them to get ahead of the learning curve (without actually learning mind you) this can be a major turn off.

[Chai]

There is a big if in your are assuption as to part of the balancing process. Given the randomness of drops and the ability of people to already accelerate their ability to pull items by having friends help out (where it is possible to pass stuff within a chest) I don't know that any such balance over time exists when it comes to power creep.

Theres no assumption being made whatsoever. Ive observed quite a few people now who have made it to 20th completions of the new raid (which isnt possible yet unless you use the bypass). Each list only had 1 or 2 of all available items not on it. Faster acquisition of current loot = more push by the players to create new content with better loot. Moar power creep. (also moar bugs in releases if they keep a faster schedule due to this)

For those willing to make use of them it does allow individuals to burn through content at a faster rate, provided they would rather do the same raid over and over rather than cycle through different content, but it does not provide access to items that they could not otherwise get.

It provides them MUCH FASTER access which translates to moar power creep due to what I statede above.

I believe I understand what you are saying but I just don't believe that Turbine put the timers in place to limit power creep but rather that they were put in place to draw out the time a player would interact with the content due to a limited amount of content being available.

They are one and the same. Less interaction with content over same period of time = less saturation of the populace with loot from said content = managing power creep = less people complaining there needs to be more content developed more quickly.

Now people can bypass those timers, and when they do they will acquire loot faster, and then start asking for more content over less time which translates to: Moar power creep.

No assumption being made, whatsoever.

[Cyndrome]

Buying content gives you access to items you would not have if you did not buy the content. Therefore, buying content is pay to win. Stop putting adventure packs in the store Turbine!!!!!


GRRRRRRRR.

I bought 20 raid bypasses just to support the decision to make them available. I might use them here or there. Frankly, there is nothing in the new raid that I would not wait a few months for anyway. I might very well want to run a raid with guildies when I am on timer on the toon I want to play at the time. This lets me do it. If someone wants to spend 20 bucks for the chance at something in the 20th list-- more power to them. I do not think this is likely to be a frequent occurrence.

[Myrrae]

So, I think that in terms of the urban dictionary 'unbalancing' aspect it's on the cusp. However, it's worrisome that we're tipping more and more in that direction when you look at all the changes (EDs and +2 Fate Tomes especially) and not just the raid bypass.

Here's how it impacts people who don't buy them:
First, it effects people who are evaluating the game. I got someone on SWtOR to try DDO and his comment was that he was sure the game was fine if you were willing to spend money on it. That was before MOTU, but essentially he was turned off by the fact that the game wasn't 'fun' enough to decide he liked it without paying. And therefore he didn't pay.

Second, the people who are willing to 1) put together raids and 2) buy the bypass will have the majority of the loot they want WELL before those who don't buy, regardless of skill.

So after a few months the pool of people to run raids with will have a much higher proportion of people who are 1) not skilled at putting together raids and 2) don't have as much raid loot.

I don't think that just a +2 fate tome or a Torc or whatever is currently going to be enough to keep someone out of a raid they want to do but it's moving further toward stratifying the established player base from the new. (Note: Having played for years can also lead to this stratification, but that's why I think they should remove or lower the timer on old raids). EDs may actually keep people out of EE and new raids.

The line as to where the 'unbalancing' happens is a subjective one, and one that I'm sure the number crunchers are watching - but because it is a subjective one it really matters more how upset people are about it. It's hard to put a numerical value on how many people don't join or don't buy things because of their feelings on the matter, all anyone can do is guess. People write theses on economy and social effects in MMOs But people buying the raid bypass and fate and EDs does have an effect on more than just the people who buy them - although how much it effects them probably has a direct relation to how much they care.

[karsion]

Here's how it impacts people who don't buy them:
First, it effects people who are evaluating the game. I got someone on SWtOR to try DDO and his comment was that he was sure the game was fine if you were willing to spend money on it. That was before MOTU, but essentially he was turned off by the fact that the game wasn't 'fun' enough to decide he liked it without paying. And therefore he didn't pay.

Second, the people who are willing to 1) put together raids and 2) buy the bypass will have the majority of the loot they want WELL before those who don't buy, regardless of skill.

So after a few months the pool of people to run raids with will have a much higher proportion of people who are 1) not skilled at putting together raids and 2) don't have as much raid loot.

I don't think that just a +2 fate tome or a Torc or whatever is currently going to be enough to keep someone out of a raid they want to do but it's moving further toward stratifying the established player base from the new. (Note: Having played for years can also lead to this stratification, but that's why I think they should remove or lower the timer on old raids). EDs may actually keep people out of EE and new raids.

Any reasoning for his evaluation? Cause from what you said it seems as if he just didn't enjoy the game.

And what you say about the correlation between timer-bypasses and loot is true.... STATISTICALLY. With ridiculously low droprates on many sought-after items it usually doesn't matter if you have run the raid 100 times, you can still be unlucky and not get the item you're after.

This is of course disregarding the fact that bypass only gives you a shoot at the chance of looting item, after all you still need to complete the raid.

And no, I don't think EDs will keep someone out of endgame. I have preordered MotU and didn't run or have no inclination for running EE or CitW. I am sure there will be many F2Ps/Premiums who will farm favor/buy TPs to get into the stuff they want to run.

Division of players has been here, is here now and will always be with us in this or any other game. Dedication, skill, free time and many other factors split players into groups. Uniformity is an utopia... and a frighteningly boring one.

[Myrrae]

Any reasoning for his evaluation? Cause from what you said it seems as if he just didn't enjoy the game.

And what you say about the correlation between timer-bypasses and loot is true.... STATISTICALLY. With ridiculously low droprates on many sought-after items it usually doesn't matter if you have run the raid 100 times, you can still be unlucky and not get the item you're after.

This is of course disregarding the fact that bypass only gives you a shoot at the chance of looting item, after all you still need to complete the raid.

And no, I don't think EDs will keep someone out of endgame. I have preordered MotU and didn't run or have no inclination for running EE or CitW. I am sure there will be many F2Ps/Premiums who will farm favor/buy TPs to get into the stuff they want to run.

Division of players has been here, is here now and will always be with us in this or any other game. Dedication, skill, free time and many other factors split players into groups. Uniformity is an utopia... and a frighteningly boring one.

It's possible he just didn't want to hurt my feelings and say that a game I liked sucked But basically he just felt too limited, and got the initial impression that if he paid money it wouldn't be so limited. It's anecdotal at best, just giving an example of how it could be perceived.

And I wasn't suggesting uniformity. Just pointing out that even if people don't mind other people buying bypasses it does actually effect the pool of people the ones that don't have to raid with.

Over a server population the statistics matter because while a few people may be horribly unlucky, the general server population is big enough that it will have an impact. Again, not saying it's hit the point where you can't compete or anything like that, just saying that it does have an impact and the trend itself is moving further away from the 'convenience/vanity items only'.

[Tenlaar]

Dedication, skill, free time and many other factors split players into groups.

The question is do you think disposable income should be one of those factors? All other things equal, does a single person who makes $80k a year and plays 10 hours a week deserve a more powerful character than a person who makes $40k a year and has a family to support and plays 10 hours a week?

[Hendrik]

The question is do you think disposable income should be one of those factors? All other things equal, does a single person who makes $80k a year and plays 10 hours a week deserve a more powerful character than a person who makes $40k a year and has a family to support and plays 10 hours a week?

The ONLY thing a player DESERVES is to get out of the game what they put into it.

[DarkForte]

The ONLY thing a player DESERVES is to get out of the game what they put into it.

And I'm pretty sure we ALL deserve to play the content we bought/subscribed to at any time we want, instead of having to pay to access already paid-for content.

[Hendrik]

And I'm pretty sure we ALL deserve to play the content we bought/subscribed to at any time we want, instead of having to pay to access already paid-for content.

And what content, exactly, that you have paid for/sub'd that you have to pay to access again?

[DarkForte]

And what content, exactly, that you have paid for/sub'd that you have to pay to access again?

I just did DQ on my caster. If I want to run it again, I'll have to pay or wait 3 days. How is that not restricting access to content I subscribe for at $15 a month? Should I have to pay as well to take my loot out of the chest with 100% probability, or something?

[Nullaer]

And I'm pretty sure we ALL deserve to play the content we bought/subscribed to at any time we want, instead of having to pay to access already paid-for content.

You do have access to the content which you bought/subscribed to. You just have to wait 3 days to do the raid again. The bypass timer did nothing to change the fact that you can still do the quest again at the 66 hour time limit.

[DarkForte]

You do have access to the content which you bought/subscribed to. You just have to wait 3 days to do the raid again. The bypass timer did nothing to change the fact that you can still do the quest again at the 66 hour time limit.

Imagine that were extended to all quests, be it raids or not. Would you still be willing to buy those imaginary 'quest repeat tokens' to repeat them? Either timers serve an useful purpose, or they don't. If they do, bypassing them with money is very bad design. If they don't, turbine's putting a rock in the middle of the street just so they can charge us to remove it.

[Myrrae]

[mobrien316]

I just did DQ on my caster. If I want to run it again, I'll have to pay or wait 3 days. How is that not restricting access to content I subscribe for at $15 a month? Should I have to pay as well to take my loot out of the chest with 100% probability, or something?

Were you unaware when you subscribed that there were timers on raids?

[eonfreon]

I understand that having some way to bypass the timers is desirable. Due to not having enough alts or missing out on a guild raid because you already pugged a raid.

There are many reasons why someone doesn't want to have to be locked out of a particular raid for 3 days.

My issue with this is that obviously then Raid Timers are no longer needed if they are allowed to be bypassed with money.

Thus moving forward they are only kept as a means of generating revenue by having a pay method to circumvent it.

Yes, I know Turbine is a profitmaking company. I know they need funds to keep the game going.

But to me, this just makes no sense.

If people think that being able to do Raids more than once every three days is desirable, then I feel people should ask for raid timers to be lifted. Not to have the opportunity to bypass it as long as you're willing to pay for it.

I don't know. To me, having a way to bypass a mechanism, put in place to slow down players, means that you're allowed to speed up your progress as long as you're willing to pay for it.

I guess that's a theme of the game, but I find it strange.

Either the raid timers are necessary or they are not. I wish people wouldn't support this particular pay service, but instead would ask to lift all raid timers for all players.

I know that won't happen. I'm just expressing my distaste for this idea.

[Alavatar]

Either timers serve an useful purpose, or they don't. If they do, bypassing them with money is very bad design. If they don't, turbine's putting a rock in the middle of the street just so they can charge us to remove it.

I understand that having some way to bypass the timers is desirable. Due to not having enough alts or missing out on a guild raid because you already pugged a raid.

There are many reasons why someone doesn't want to have to be locked out of a particular raid for 3 days.

My issue with this is that obviously then Raid Timers are no longer needed if they are allowed to be bypassed with money.

Thus moving forward they are only kept as a means of generating revenue by having a pay method to circumvent it.

Yes, I know Turbine is a profitmaking company. I know they need funds to keep the game going.

But to me, this just makes no sense.

If people think that being able to do Raids more than once every three days is desirable, then I feel people should ask for raid timers to be lifted. Not to have the opportunity to bypass it as long as you're willing to pay for it.

I don't know. To me, having a way to bypass a mechanism, put in place to slow down players, means that you're allowed to speed up your progress as long as you're willing to pay for it.

I guess that's a theme of the game, but I find it strange.

Either the raid timers are necessary or they are not. I wish people wouldn't support this particular pay service, but instead would ask to lift all raid timers for all players.

I know that won't happen. I'm just expressing my distaste for this idea.

Initially, I thought the Raid Timer Bypass mechanism was good. I thought the option to remove the timer so that you could raid quickly or again with friends was a good option.

After reading the two posts I quoted above I find very good points and logical derivatives that seem very sound. As such, I believe I am now leaning towards, and agreeing with, the two posts quoted above.

Thank you, DarkForte and eonfreon for your rhetoric.

[DarkForte]

Were you unaware when you subscribed that there were timers on raids?

A case could certainly be made to that effect, as most vip propaganda purports unlimited access to content. I'm not going that road though.

Before, it came with the content. Now, it's basically feed money to the game if you want to play now. When you introduce the bypass, you make it so that raid timers aren't an integral part of the game, but something you have to keep throwing money into if you want to play when you want to.

By allowing people to bypass it, one is basically stating that the timer mechanics are not important for the health of the game, so, basically, turbine is putting a nuisance in my path so they can charge for removing it.

[mobrien316]

But to me, this just makes no sense.

Really? I think it is not only good business practice, but is also eminently fair to those who wish to play for free.

If you don't want to pay extra to run raids more often, you don't have to. You can run any raid you own every three days for free.

If you want to run it more often, you have to pay a nominal fee.


I don't see why people think that is unfair. You can play for free, or you can pay to run the same raid again without a timer. Should Turbine just make everything free?

[eonfreon]

Really? I think it is not only good business practice, but is also eminently fair to those who wish to play for free.

If you don't want to pay extra to run raids more often, you don't have to. You can run any raid you own every three days for free.

If you want to run it more often, you have to pay a nominal fee.


I don't see why people think that is unfair. You can play for free, or you can pay to run the same raid again without a timer. Should Turbine just make everything free?

No, Turbine shouldn't just make everything free.

I just don't like this particular tactic.

Yes, it is a convenience to be able to bypass a raid timer, but I feel it is a not of the same convenience "level" as say a paid teleportation aspect.

The teleport allows a player to save time and get around faster, but it only allows you to "speedup" a timesink in essence. Whereas a Raid Bypass allows you to bypass an outright "blockade".

I really don't know how to express my misgivings any better. So I'll just have to say that I disagree. I find it to be a potentially unfair mechanic. A person shouldn't have to pay additionally to access the content he already paid for, in my opinion. And this becomes quite close to that, regardless of what we expected in the past, this changes the present mechanic and the likely the future aspects of raiding.

As far as "good business sense"; sure, it always makes "sense" to create an undesirable situation that one can bypass with money. Those types of "strongarm" tactics have been with us since the dawn of humanity.

So, I'll ask you a question if I may.

If you think it's a good thing to be able to do a particular raid more than the timer allows, why do you think the best method to go about it is to charge a fee?
Just so that Turbine can make more profits? Or do you see some other benefit that I'm missing?