Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[alexp80]

If devs truly wanted to limit casters they would make metas change the spell slot, as well as the SP cost (as it should imo)...

Meaning instead of every spell we have being effectively lvl 9 slots with heighten, we would be limited to only 1-4

Quicken, Maximise and empower would add a lot to a spell meaning it may take a lvl 9 slot (that is very valuable) and not be able to be heightened for higher DCs on top.

We could then add in lvl 10, 11 etc spell slots with the Epic destinies to allow more meta stacking.

fine, doing so adding more spell slot for high casting stat bonus too.
With the pnp rule, with 50 in casting ability we will have about DOUBLE spell slots than now (more than double for sorc/fvs)

[Stillwaters]

fine, doing so adding more spell slot for high casting stat bonus too.
With the pnp rule, with 50 in casting ability we will have about DOUBLE spell slots than now (more than double for sorc/fvs)

Lmao no problem, add the sp and spell slots for high stats, then add some metas and see what you are left with.
Sure you can still spam those metad spells but there would be less of them (and no emp max meteor swarms)
Not that it ever even worked that way in DnD spellpoint systems in the 1st place
d20 spellpoint system

Adding a lvl 9 spell slot was a HUGE amount of (casting stat).


It wasnt a serious suggestion, but it IS d&d (which this mmo no longer resembles)

Some fool could make a generic MMO with beholdings and mindlashers, use all the non trademarked dnd terms like dungeons and dragons.. yet it wouldnt be DND... Thats what we have in "Casters and Dragons Online" (DDO)
The only difference is this mmo is allowed to use the trademarked D&D terminologies.

[Azre]

Quicken, Maximise and empower would add a lot to a spell meaning it may take a lvl 9 slot (that is very valuable) and not be able to be heightened for higher DCs on top.
(also meaning you couldnt possibly maximize and empower a meteor swarm for eg.

We could then add in lvl 10, 11 etc spell slots with the Epic destinies to allow more meta stacking.

Just a thought though as it would NEVER be approved of by the casters, whose opinion is actually taken into account by devs.

Actually love the idea, but keep in mind that heighten shouldn't automatically level all spells to 9, but to the spell level the caster wishes to cast it.

Sadly, I think it's very hard to implement such system.

[alexp80]

It wasnt a serious suggestion, but it IS d&d (which this mmo no longer resembles)

Anyone smart and honest enough would state that pnp rules can never apply to a videogame.

Pnp itself is totally unbalaced and works only because there is a dungeon master that tails the challenge around a specific group.

So if you are not serious and you just want to troll around a bit more, move on.

[Stillwaters]

It is a valid point that metas in DDO dont work like they do in Pnp - this is just another reason caster power creep has gone over the top.

For instance you couldnt maximize a lvl 3 spell (like fireball) at lvl 5 Wiz when you received it. (even in spell point systems).

Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

Regardless of maximize not actually having the same +% power as in DDO, (it just meant no dice rolled max damage!)
The wizard in my example could not apply maximize to fireball until lvl 9 (as its effectively a lvl 6 spell now)!!!
To empower, +2 spell levels, it as well would mean waiting until lvl 13 (as its effectively a lvl 8 spell now)
to add quicken at this point would be impossible as it added 4 levels to the spell (effectively lvl 12 spell slot that didnt exist)
But you could Heighten it 1 time (at wizard lvl 17 - lvl 9 spell) for +1 DC

Sidenote: it was IMPOSSIBLE to quicken spells like Reconstruct (lvl6) or Heal which is most of the reason you see blue bars soloing Epic content.

TLDR: for all you casters whining about Wail spell changes, it could be a lot darn worse if they wanted to balance you right!

[tinyelvis]

Some of you guys aught to go design your own MMO. I am sure you could make lots of money..... lol.

[TDarkchylde]

Changing Wail, changing instakills, casters are overpowered, wah, wah, wah. The cries are heard seemingly every time Lamannia's up with a new Update lately.

Seriously. Am I the only one around here who finds it fun to go into a high-level Elite or a (live) Epic on a caster and curbstomp everything within?

Gather mobs, Wail. Gather mobs, Implosion. Gather mobs, drop Ice Storm/Wall of Fire and kite, shieldtank or find cover. Gather mobs, drop Bladebarrier and kite. Finger, PK, Slay Living or Destruction for stragglers who won't gather or kite, heal off all the damage. That's fun.

Mob doesn't kite, blow up or is immune to AoE? Hello there, variety. What started as an instakill/AoE steamrollfest just became "Can you kill me before you're already dead from my nukes/DoTs?" As a change of pace it's great. A whole dungeon like that, though? Boring.

Similar for an Arti - gather mobs, drop (insanely powerful) Bladebarrier, shoot runearm and/or repeater at stationary mobs, Recon when low, move on. Also fun.

Mob doesn't kite/resists Force? Hello again, variety, I say as I pull out the slaying bolts and gBane crossbow, activate Fusillade and run into point blank range. Die, die, DIE! All well and good until I'm off of Fusillade, then I'm having to dart about. Fun for a little bit, but a whole dungeon of that? Boring.

Swing, swing, swing, yell at the healer because I'm at 5% life, not even have one mob dead - not fun. Actually, it's outright boring. Excuse me (and keep me healed/Hasted/what have you) while I hit autoattack and make a sandwich. (Actually, sounds like a lot of melees, from the sound of things. The typical Barb can fix a sandwich before his Rage expires, right? Or is that just the ones who can crit for quadruple digits?)

Melees are underpowered, yes, but that doesn't mean "nerf instakill," "nerf instakillers," "nerf Wail" or "listen to the Barb player who, with EVERY update, begs for caster nerfs." No. What it means is maybe some element of fun that I feel when I curbstomp everything on the casters I've spent years gearing should be transferred to the melees.

Again - Swing, swing, swing, hjeal me, haste me already - BORING.

Swing, trip, watch the mob fall, swing a couple more times, mob gets up, stun, swing some more while he watches the birdies, spin around, trip the one trying to flank me... that's more like it. Or forget the stun... just lay on hands/Maximized CSW/Empower Healed Greater Jorasco Mark through the damage. It's active, it's engaging, no fight goes the same way twice. Those few things make it more fun.

Sure beats "swing, swing, bored, bored - ooh, crit for 600 and a Disintegration proc - bored, bored, heal me, bored, re-haste, bored..."

TL;DR - Devs, maybe instead of nerfing the instakill and killing casters' fun, bump up the melees a little? Maybe make them more fun with a little variety? Boost their self-reliance or at least their tactical feats, perhaps. It'd help if some learned to use them, but you can't fix that.

Still TL;DR? Instakill isn't the problem, casters aren't the problem, the melee experience is.

[FooWonk]

I second the call to introduce weird, but correct me if im wrong but its actualy a lvl 8 spell.

It's 9th level.

Other spells I'd love seeing...

Prismatic Wall (8) / Prismatic Sphere (9) -
Wall lasts 8 seconds, is shaped like Firewall & does 4 tics of prismatic damage
Sphere lasts 30 seconds and is shaped like Blade Barrier & does prismatic damage to enemies that pass through it.

Crushing Hand (9) / Forceful Hand (6) / Interposing Hand (5) -
Crushing hand attempts to grapple target (STR check to save) and holds target in place until dispelled. Every 6 seconds target gets another chance to save. Every 2 seconds target suffers 2d6+12 crushing damage. On save hand reverts to Forceful hand.
Forceful Hand attempts to knock down an enemy (STR check to save). On save hand reverts to Interposing Hand.
Interposing hand is a -4 to-hit debuff against a single enemy.

Shades (9) allows casting level 6 through 8 evocation or conjuration damage spells via illusion. A spell cast via Shades uses caster's Illusion DC and have spell resistance checks, True Seeing / Will save for 4/5 damage and any saves from the spell being mimicked.

Shadow Evocation, Greater (8) / Lesser (5) - works as Shades
Greater allows casting of level 4 & 5 evocation spells.
Lesser allows casting of level 2 & 3 evocation spells.

Shadow Conjuration, Greater (7) / Lesser (4) - works as Shades
Greater allows casting of level 4 & 5 conjuration damage spells.
Lesser allows casting of level 2 & 3 conjuration damage spells.

Mirror Image (2) - creates (1d4 + 1 per 3 caster level, max 8) duplicates of caster. When attacked caster & duplicates have equal chance of being targeted. Each time a duplicate is targeted it vanishes.

All these shadow spells are versatile, but easily resisted by mobs with high SR, True Seeing or good will saves.

[Eladiun]

TL;DR - Devs, maybe instead of nerfing the instakill and killing casters' fun, bump up the melees a little? Maybe make them more fun with a little variety? Boost their self-reliance or at least their tactical feats, perhaps. It'd help if some learned to use them, but you can't fix that.

Still TL;DR? Instakill isn't the problem, casters aren't the problem, the melee experience is.

I can attest to this. I have a tactics WF fighter and it's a blast. With and Epic Bladesmark, an Epic Spare Hand, Stunning Blow, Improved Sunder, and Improved Trip I have my own CC and it's a lot more fun to play. It's versatile and can do a lot of things to benefit the party while bring the DPS. If things like Tendon Slice, etc worked half as well on MoB as they do on us there would be more diversity in melee builds.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

it's 9th level.

Other spells i'd love seeing...

prismatic wall (8) / prismatic sphere (9) -
wall lasts 8 seconds, is shaped like firewall & does 4 tics of prismatic damage
sphere lasts 30 seconds and is shaped like blade barrier & does prismatic damage to enemies that pass through it.

crushing hand (9) / forceful hand (6) / interposing hand (5) -
crushing hand attempts to grapple target (str check to save) and holds target in place until dispelled. Every 6 seconds target gets another chance to save. Every 2 seconds target suffers 2d6+12 crushing damage. On save hand reverts to forceful hand.
Forceful hand attempts to knock down an enemy (str check to save). On save hand reverts to interposing hand.
Interposing hand is a -4 to-hit debuff against a single enemy.

shades (9) allows casting level 6 through 8 evocation or conjuration damage spells via illusion. A spell cast via shades uses caster's illusion dc and have spell resistance checks, true seeing / will save for 4/5 damage and any saves from the spell being mimicked.

shadow evocation, greater (8) / lesser (5) - works as shades
greater allows casting of level 4 & 5 evocation spells.
Lesser allows casting of level 2 & 3 evocation spells.

shadow conjuration, greater (7) / lesser (4) - works as shades
greater allows casting of level 4 & 5 conjuration damage spells.
Lesser allows casting of level 2 & 3 conjuration damage spells.

mirror image (2) - creates (1d4 + 1 per 3 caster level, max 8) duplicates of caster. When attacked caster & duplicates have equal chance of being targeted. Each time a duplicate is targeted it vanishes.

All these shadow spells are versatile, but easily resisted by mobs with high sr, true seeing or good will saves.

word!

[Ungood]

TL;DR - Devs, maybe instead of nerfing the instakill and killing casters' fun, bump up the melees a little? Maybe make them more fun with a little variety? Boost their self-reliance or at least their tactical feats, perhaps. It'd help if some learned to use them, but you can't fix that.

Still TL;DR? Instakill isn't the problem, casters aren't the problem, the melee experience is.

This is what Melee players have been asking for for years, gotten discouraged and figured they may as well ask for nerfs because the buffs were never going to come.

It would be funnier then a You Tube Vid of Idiots playing with fire if they ever actually listened to the request to balance the game by buffing melee.

But the reality is, after 13 consecutive updates of nothing but Melee nerfs, I have come to concede that the Developers could not figure out how Buff the melee classes if someone handed them a guide and drew 'em a map.

[LeLoric]

Actually it inflicts an 'unlisted' at least in description but not in spell effect -4 penalty to saves, which stacks with curse and crushing despair.

Cast it out, see for yourself. Also works on undead and red named bosses, just like curse does, even raid bosses.

Found out about it when it was casted on me in house P epics a while ago.



Don't really think it's broken, just that the reference of ability check instead of saves. But they're the same thing.

Give a -4 to ability checks it's just the same as giving a mob -4 on all saves. The description 'after' casting the spell makes reference to saves.

Would be amazing if they updated the spell, as to be a bit more clear though.

No it does not affect saves it used to before the spell pass but it was changed as of the spell pass to no longer affect saves. Except ability score and skill ones like str checks for web.

-4 ability checks is not -4 to all abilities.

[Azre]

No it does not affect saves it used to before the spell pass but it was changed as of the spell pass to no longer affect saves. Except ability score and skill ones like str checks for web.

-4 ability checks is not -4 to all abilities.

Why instead of arguing a theoretical point (of what says in X spell description) you don't go out and test it?. Spell descriptions are known to be bugged.

Run epic Big Top, get symbol of pain casted on you, then tell me it doesn't lower saves by 4.

Better yet, cast it on a mob, press the information box on the creature and read the description, it says -4 to saves.

It's incredibly easy to test it, if you'd rather not do it in pvp.
Cast symbol on an epic mob then try to see how many times a lower dc spell (say PK) takes to land and see how long it takes without it.

Or if you don't believe me (and you shouldn't), maybe you would trust DDOwiki more?.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Symbol_of_Pain

If however you mean that update changed the spell somehow I wouldn't know, but it would be nice to update wiki.

[Azre]

It's 9th level.

Other spells I'd love seeing...

Prismatic Wall (8) / Prismatic Sphere (9) -
Wall lasts 8 seconds, is shaped like Firewall & does 4 tics of prismatic damage
Sphere lasts 30 seconds and is shaped like Blade Barrier & does prismatic damage to enemies that pass through it.

Crushing Hand (9) / Forceful Hand (6) / Interposing Hand (5) -
Crushing hand attempts to grapple target (STR check to save) and holds target in place until dispelled. Every 6 seconds target gets another chance to save. Every 2 seconds target suffers 2d6+12 crushing damage. On save hand reverts to Forceful hand.
Forceful Hand attempts to knock down an enemy (STR check to save). On save hand reverts to Interposing Hand.
Interposing hand is a -4 to-hit debuff against a single enemy.

Shades (9) allows casting level 6 through 8 evocation or conjuration damage spells via illusion. A spell cast via Shades uses caster's Illusion DC and have spell resistance checks, True Seeing / Will save for 4/5 damage and any saves from the spell being mimicked.

Shadow Evocation, Greater (8) / Lesser (5) - works as Shades
Greater allows casting of level 4 & 5 evocation spells.
Lesser allows casting of level 2 & 3 evocation spells.

Shadow Conjuration, Greater (7) / Lesser (4) - works as Shades
Greater allows casting of level 4 & 5 conjuration damage spells.
Lesser allows casting of level 2 & 3 conjuration damage spells.

Mirror Image (2) - creates (1d4 + 1 per 3 caster level, max 8) duplicates of caster. When attacked caster & duplicates have equal chance of being targeted. Each time a duplicate is targeted it vanishes.

All these shadow spells are versatile, but easily resisted by mobs with high SR, True Seeing or good will saves.

/signed

[GermanicusMaximus]

Swing, swing, swing, yell at the healer because I'm at 5% life, not even have one mob dead - not fun. Actually, it's outright boring. Excuse me (and keep me healed/Hasted/what have you) while I hit autoattack and make a sandwich. (Actually, sounds like a lot of melees, from the sound of things. The typical Barb can fix a sandwich before his Rage expires, right? Or is that just the ones who can crit for quadruple digits?)

Only a good barb can make a sandwich before his rage expires. Barbs that can't make a sandwich before rage expiration are gimp.

[PopeJual]

Only a good barb can make a sandwich before his rage expires. Barbs that can't make a sandwich before rage expiration are gimp.

I've heard of quests where the Barb went out to Wal-mart and no one noticed.


...or was that the Bard?

[Aashrym]

I've heard of quests where the Barb went out to Wal-mart and no one noticed.


...or was that the Bard?

I've done that soloing on a bard. Even the mobs don't notice.

[irivan]

I spent some time last night checking on the various melee complainers in this thread, and they are just that, MELEE ONLY PLAYERS, most of them dont even have a Caster, and the ones that do are severely gimped.

Thus they have no expertise on the matter and their opinions are based on clueless nonobjective speculation.

They have no idea what DC's are effective and which ones are or arent, other than the info, we...the caster community has passed onto them.

Additionally they have no idea what the reality is from the average caster perspective, and since they are far below the average on that scale, when they see a finger go off they can only guess what that persons real abilities are.

One thing is for sure, in the new content anything sub 48 is going to be very, very sketchy, and even 49 is no sure bet, i had to work hard to get mine to a sustainable 50 and that was swapping in gear that I did not want to wear, so i had to make choices.

People bantering about 60+ are out of their gord, you might hold it for a few minutes at best. but even 52+ will be hard to get and keep.

You are all so full of it I dont even know where to begin, thank god the devs only take what they read here with a grain of salt, otherwise they really would be out of business.

[salmag]

Keep Instakills they way they are...

Un-nerf Vorpal, Smiting, Banishing and Disruption weapons back to the way they were...

That way melee can get their instakills too.


Now fix ranged combat and finsh the PREs...

Oh and introduce Gnomes for crying out loud.

[LeLoric]

Why instead of arguing a theoretical point (of what says in X spell description) you don't go out and test it?. Spell descriptions are known to be bugged.

Run epic Big Top, get symbol of pain casted on you, then tell me it doesn't lower saves by 4.

Better yet, cast it on a mob, press the information box on the creature and read the description, it says -4 to saves.

It's incredibly easy to test it, if you'd rather not do it in pvp.
Cast symbol on an epic mob then try to see how many times a lower dc spell (say PK) takes to land and see how long it takes without it.

Or if you don't believe me (and you shouldn't), maybe you would trust DDOwiki more?.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Symbol_of_Pain

If however you mean that update changed the spell somehow I wouldn't know, but it would be nice to update wiki.

I have tested it. You can choose whether or not to believe me or to keep casting worthless spells your choice but I do have a pretty good reputation and track record on these kinds of matters. I have no desire to go get screenshots to prove to you something I already know, you seem to already know how to check it. I was just trying to let you know you are wasting time and sp casting symbol of pain to lower saves.

And your evidence of proof is a wiki? I guess I need to give you another bit of helpful advice you probably will never listen to. Don't take wiki's for fact.