Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[noinfo]

Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.

All these systems changes come from the actual devs who care deeply about game balance and providing an appropriate challenging and entertaining experience for you. They have to lobby fairly hard to get these changes in, and even then the changes are monitored closely and then altered as necessary.

Many of these changes come as requests from these forums, some come from our own play experience, but most come as a result of both.

It isn't easy "nerfing" anyone's character abilities, regardless of how justified it might seem. It is especially difficult given that we created the situation that now warrants the change. If only making everything over powered was the route to success our jobs would be much easier.

We have been making every effort to share the changes with you and solicit feedback, often resulting in an improved solution. This itself is tricky because it's natural for many of us to react negatively to any type of change.

To those of you who have responded constructively one way or the other, we thank you.

Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

I think a question was asked before, do the ticks start at 0, 2, 4, 6 or just 2,4,6.

[Ebonta]

First for you to say this Norge about some one else is not only not fair to that person, but you are letting your emotion on the subject get the best of you.

What is best in one persons perspective for the game may not match with yours.

For example, I happen to believe that most players, and certainly a very critical portion of players who play Arcane Insta Killing types are essential to the game, and that by nerfing their abilities, out of line with the consistency that has been in place for so long will cause many of them to leave, or change their characters into something else. Thus making it very difficult for a great many parties to complete end game content. Is that good for the game? No it would be terrible.

Second , I have been here just as long, and likely longer than you have, I have played this game in every iteration, to me, the game is much better since mass insta kills entered the equation.

In fact I am in a Pug right now on my first life stalwart tank, level 18 group, we just did Jeets, it was a complete nightmare, I was hoping that the wizard that joined had wail, so that he could clear out all of that garbage, no we had to wade through it because he was a low necro dc archmage and he also did not know how to use mass hold.

That my friend is your average TR'd wizard, there are not many, in fact only a handful of competent Necromancers out there. In fact I would be hard pressed to think of 20. I know it is less than 1%. Just because you run with good portion of what is available does not make you an expert on the real reality out there, and what is actually fun, and who it is fun for. Your grouping experiences are so isolated, near guild only(sure you let pugs in like me or whatever, but never without the majority of the group being Prophets) that you should disqualify yourself from this conversation, as should Shade - And I am not comparing you to him either because he is far more extreme than you in this scenario, he wont even let people in his groups that he does not know or that don't come with severe known competence or extreme confidence.

Thanks for the defend.

I think you're completely spot on with your assessment of the current situation. Broad, sweeping changes to Necromancy based spells that cripple them will make casters quit the game. Turbine knew that abilities like Wail were overpowered/had balance issues, and did nothing until just recently. Not a smart move by them.

I also agree that pug Wizard's generally are rather lackluster. You do have to get into a guild run or find the occasional caster with a high enough DC to trivialize content, and the game shouldn't be balanced around that.

[Munkenmo]

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 60 seconds (50 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream, creating a deadly area around yourself for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels. You are free to perform other actions while Wail of the Banshee is active.
D&D Dice: Slays multiple living enemies or deals 1d4 negative levels if they save.

We're planning on continuing to monitor the effectiveness of instant death effects (and necromancy in general) and will continue to make changes as necessary. (Especially when the enhancements revamp appears. It's possible that the "Haunted" concept, instead of being a debuff, will reappear as a positive effect for characters that invest in the Pale Master tree.)

a level 9 spell that only kills 6 enemies a minute...

perhaps allowing pale masters increase to 3 mobs per tick as part of lich form

over a 300 second period where sorcs and wizzies would reach the same cooldown.

sorcs have killed a potential 6*6 = 36 mobs
pms have killed a potential 5*9 = 45 mobs

given how much lower a wizard's, especially PM's dps output is compared to a sorcerer i feel this would still be fairly balanced.

[Hikup]

Sum of the Thread is this:

Casters Get a Buff, Melee Get Nerfed, and Turbine's Modus Operendi remains as it always has.

Same old same old.

In what world is wail turning into arcane implosion a buff?




I can't believe turbine listens to the opinion of someone who thinks a 28 pointer can or should preform as well as a multi - life decked out caster.

[Nines9]

Sum of the Thread is this:

Casters Get a Buff, Melee Get Nerfed, and Turbine's Modus Operendi remains as it always has.

Same old same old.

Guess I missed the buff part (or the melee nerf part even).

On live now: run through a few rooms to gather non-caster/archer mobs, fingering the casters along the way. Get a big group, give them sadfaces, CoD, wail, majority gone.

Post update: do the same, but with a smaller group of mobs, and less frequently.

Sorta kinda missing the buff part there.

[Jasparion]

I think the cooldown increase is fine, but I dont get the Implosion bit. 2 mobs every 2 seconds for 6 seconds...

If there are no other changes then Rogues, Monks and Divines will all be happy.

That said, does this mean Circle is now the new Wail?

[Ebonta]

I think the cooldown increase is fine, but I dont get the Implosion bit. 2 mobs every 2 seconds for 6 seconds...

If there are no other changes then Rogues, Monks and Divines will all be happy.

That said, does this mean Circle is now the new Wail?

Not really, Circle is capped at 4 mobs and has 2 saves on it. Fortitude and Reflex.

[Ungood]

Guess I missed the buff part (or the melee nerf part even).

On live now: run through a few rooms to gather non-caster/archer mobs, fingering the casters along the way. Get a big group, give them sadfaces, CoD, wail, majority gone.

Post update: do the same, but with a smaller group of mobs, and less frequently.

Sorta kinda missing the buff part there.

Yah, it seems you did, well a quick heads up, there is a whole lot more changes in this "expansion" then the ever so super precious wail spell, you might want to go read those release notes again.

[Munkenmo]

First life 28pt palemaster will land wail and trivialize epic quest/raid?

Well, i have one, with necro DC 41 (42-43 with buffs and if i'm lucky with bard buffs). Wail doesn't land on all targets, not with this DC ranges (quite often you will see saves by mob). To achieve that you need epic gear and few past lifes. And that takes time, even moths and years.

There's a level 4 spell, crushing despair. It's got a very large radius, targets will saves, and will reduce all effected mobs saves by 2.

It's a great way to boost your necro dc's whilst you're gearing up.

[barraker]

Honestly if you really want to gimp a Pale master then take away the jump spell.

Then give us fly spell.

[Grace_ana]

Hmm.

I guess I'm not understanding why the devs are trying to make this so much more complex than it is. If you're really really really dead set on nerfing Wail (which I still don't get, but w/e), then why change the actual spell? Why not just give it a hard cap of 10 kills? Right now, 6 seems like too small a number for 50 sp as a lvl 9 spell.

I just don't see the necessity for another version of implosion. It's Wail But Kinda Quiet So That Not All The Mobs Hear You So They Have To Ask You To Speak Up Several Times.

[Scraap]

By the way (probably not but hey, just to breathe some new (un) life into the feat): any chance of seeing extend apply?

[dubyprime]

I just don't see the necessity for another version of implosion. It's Wail But Kinda Quiet So That Not All The Mobs Hear You So They Have To Ask You To Speak Up Several Times.

Rofl... maybe call it Stuttering of the Banshee.

[HatsuharuZ]

Hi everyone!

Thank you for the feedback on the haunted idea.

We've evaluated the Haunted mechanic to be too complex to introduce at this time. As mentioned by several posters in this thread, it's really Wail of the Banshee that is the source of the balance problems that we seek to address, and it's more logical to constrain changes to the spell.

We're planning on removing the death protection from non-boss creatures in Epic difficulty and changing Wail of the Banshee from being a spell that instantaneously kills up to 20 enemies for 10 sp more than Finger of Death, to a kill-over-time model similar to, but still better than, the Clr/FvS spell Implosion.

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 60 seconds (50 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream, creating a deadly area around yourself for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels. You are free to perform other actions while Wail of the Banshee is active.
D&D Dice: Slays multiple living enemies or deals 1d4 negative levels if they save.

We're planning on continuing to monitor the effectiveness of instant death effects (and necromancy in general) and will continue to make changes as necessary. (Especially when the enhancements revamp appears. It's possible that the "Haunted" concept, instead of being a debuff, will reappear as a positive effect for characters that invest in the Pale Master tree.)

This is an elegant solution. My PM, all of the ghosts she's collected over the years, and myself thank you :P

[paraplegic]

First of all thanks Shade, maddmatt70 and few others (that I wont name but you know who you are).
Yea, you hear me well. I said thanks because all casters haters keep “hard to kill  haunting” as the topic of the day, thanks to that single fact, every single caster saw the upcoming nerf, and guess what we cry out loud (also this remind me thanks gravestones)and yes listen to us.
I just gave +1 rep to those 3 guys. Well done!


now , here is what im seeing.

Circle of Death has two saves and a 4 target limit.

I must infer having 2 saves is ok? Or that having 4 target limit is the ok part?

We've evaluated the Haunted mechanic to be too complex to introduce at this time. As mentioned by several posters in this thread, it's really Wail of the Banshee that is the source of the balance problems that we seek to address, and it's more logical to constrain changes to the spell.

interesting.

We're planning on removing the death protection from non-boss creatures in Epic difficulty and changing Wail of the Banshee from being a spell that instantaneously kills up to 20 enemies for 10 sp more than Finger of Death, to a kill-over-time model similar to, but still better than, the Clr/FvS spell Implosion.

Now I don’t understand, here you are saying “ the problem is wail can kill an X amount of enemies with only 10 sp more than finger of death?--- Then where is the problem exactly in the saves? (1 save vs 2 saves?) in the target limit? (20 or more vs 4?) or in SP?

(clarification, now wail have 3 problem instead of 2)

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 60 seconds (50 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream, creating a deadly area around yourself for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels. You are free to perform other actions while Wail of the Banshee is active.
D&D Dice: Slays multiple living enemies or deals 1d4 negative levels if they save.

you didn’t add two saves (I though 2 save were ok?!) (if you ask me I’ll be happy with two saves, in exchange of faster cooldown.. yep it will hurt first lives PM, but un affect those guys that have farmed every single piece of epic gear/+4tomes/LOTD), or change SP cost (what then killing 6 mobs for 50 sp is now ok?, I guess it must be the time/kill factor).

Here is my point of view…

You guys don’t have it clear where exactly the problem in wail is…


but I do have a point of view.

The problem to be could be two factors.
Cooldown
the more cooldown in the spell the less frequently it will be used. (less angry melees)

target limit ( alternative SP cost, must be one or another, not both)
if the spell could be tied to a fixed amount of mobs, ( say 8-10?) then the SP/kill cost would be ok?

Wail of the Banshee from being a spell that instantaneously kills up to 20 enemies for 10 sp more than Finger of Death

Or we can tackle down the SP cost into a lower SP wail, in relation to the cost than FOD, but scales up for every target caught in the spell radius. Or higher SP cost unfixed amount of targets.



Now that I have state the problem ( in my point of view) I will make few suggestions.
1) Make more necro spells. (Yes it’s true, I mostly use FOD/wail/COD, in my defense those spells are given by devs) if we get more spells (USEFULL SPELLS) the less angry people will take the wail nerf. Don’t ya think? If you are taking the candy out of the baby, expect the baby to cry, but if you give the baby another candy, and take him the candy he is eating, the baby won’t cry as much. (Hopefully!)

Consider that new spells makes people happy! Yes melee too!

2) Make dispel magic useful
3) Add mobs that put DW- ( see point TWO!!!)



Now before the rage vs me start ill talk about me-


Im a PM in sarlona (parasthesia) while im not the top geared PM on server ( not even close!! Only 44 dc necro and 43 enchant! ) but I do my job right, I don’t kill every mob, I don’t wail everything, and I don’t solo everything ( there are some things I can do I wont lie, but no im not “Godlike” I play many EDA’s on my PM not focusing on wail, but rather on CC and kill the caster/fire elemental. Even more, on EDA, one of my friend (45-46 dcs necro) focus on killing everything couldn’t match a top geared barbarian (esos/devils ruin/wearing the red ( the epic dragon scale armor and helmet +4 tomes etc)

I don’t see why melees complain, if they “don’t like” the caster power, and think it as OP, then every melee should make a caster, to see that its not easy, you must grind few lifes.
that’s what I did, my first char was a 20 rogue and while my dps was fine I felt some power on the wizard side. And yes I made one. End of the story. Problem solved.

[Nines9]

Yah, it seems you did, well a quick heads up, there is a whole lot more changes in this "expansion" then the ever so super precious wail spell, you might want to go read those release notes again.

Ah, my assumption was you were talking about the changes specifically in this thread. As for the ac/spell power changes, not a big fan. The first as it gutted the only tank build I was currently interested in building, and the second is just more of an annoyance. But again, those have their own multi-page threads.

[Auran82]

Can we get the spell 'Weird' now?

Make it the same as the old Wail, same cooldown, same AOE, but with 2 saves, and being Illusion as opposed to Necromancy.

The only thing I'm not 100% about with the change to wail is the cooldown. A minute is a long time to wait, lol. Something like 45/40 seconds would be nicer

[paraplegic]

indeed i like more spells in favor of the game

[Boneshank]

And why is this bad?

Because if you did the same quests in a group with mostly melee, the completion times would be 4-10x longer. It's completely unbalanced against other classes who lack these insanely powerful features, even when they are supported by said classes which they need either way.

... says the guy who's traditional LFMs are his melee, plus 5 casters/disciplewannabes.

[Jasparion]

... says the guy who's traditional LFMs are his melee, plus 5 casters/disciplewannabes.

1 to heal
1 to CC
1 to... ?
Hmmm
3 to watch him do his thing and report back to the Forums?