Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Ebonta]

It is not just wail of banshee it also is circle of death and implosion - it really is mass insta kill spells generally. You should nerf all three spells if you want to make a change. The game needs a change quite frankly because mass instakills makes it boring. Who cares if these guys spent all the time with past lives and everything sometimes you have to make a change for the good of the game.

"Who cares if a bunch of caster's get angry enough to quit the game?" That's how I read what you posted.

The proposed change makes Wail much less powerful than its current incarnation, and I suppose that's fine. But stating that making sweeping changes to those three spells that many have collected many past lives to improve is ridiculous. Especially since it wastes our time.

TLDR - I care.

[Faent]

"Who cares if a bunch of caster's get angry enough to quit the game?" That's how I read what you posted.

He was trolling. Just ignore it.

[maddmatt70]

"Who cares if a bunch of caster's get angry enough to quit the game?" That's how I read what you posted.

The proposed change makes Wail much less powerful than its current incarnation, and I suppose that's fine. But stating that making sweeping changes to those three spells that many have collected many past lives to improve is ridiculous. Especially since it wastes our time.

TLDR - I care.

No you do not care about what is for the good of the game. My most true reincarnated character i.e. the character that I have true reincarnated the most is my 5th live cleric who has 3 sorc and 1 wizard past lives. Do you think I speak for my own best interst when I say implosion should be nerfed? This whole situation is not unlike the nerfing of Wounding and Puncturing which made the game better. I can not even believe anyone could argue that a one button mass death spell is a good thing.

The mass insta kill spells has routinely made the game less fun for my melee and made DDO boring and less challenging.

In pen and paper in one campaign I was in it was extremely high powered. The dungeon master in that campaign had no problem with throwing out an insta-kill right off the bat. It was quite concieveable for the dungeon master's bad guys to win the initiative and hit me with a finger of death flatfooted without even a chance to react. So what did I do on my level 18+ cleric is I put the death ward property on my armor (the deathward property automatically casts the deatward spell cl 7 whenever a negative energy effect strikes you, but it is only 1 use per day).

The Devs really do have the deathward property option, but they are limited because of programming. They can not arbitrarly say on some of the mobs there is the deathward property because that requires too much programming; hence, blanket immunites which are not good either. The best option is target and nerf the mass insta kills and leave alone single target insta-kills. For those of you that remember live before mass instakills when the cap in DDO was 16 and below the gameplay was better.

[alexp80]

No you do not care about what is for the good of the game. My most true reincarnated character i.e. the character that I have true reincarnated the most is my 5th live cleric who has 3 sorc and 1 wizard past lives. Do you think I speak for my own best interst when I say implosion should be nerfed? This whole situation is not unlike the nerfing of Wounding and Puncturing which made the game better. I can not even believe anyone could argue that a one button mass death spell is a good thing.

Melee can simply choose a different weapon. PALE MASTERS HAVE NO OTHER OPTION DID YOU GET THIS?

The mass insta kill spells has routinely made the game less fun for my melee and made DDO boring and less challenging.

Here's the whine part. When wizards were buff/hold bots were fun FOR YOU.

In pen and paper in one campaign I was in it was extremely high powered. The dungeon master in that campaign had no problem with throwing out an insta-kill right off the bat. It was quite concieveable for the dungeon master's bad guys to win the initiative and hit me with a finger of death flatfooted without even a chance to react. So what did I do on my level 18+ cleric is I put the death ward property on my armor (the deathward property automatically casts the deatward spell cl 7 whenever a negative energy effect strikes you, but it is only 1 use per day).

Pnp encounters are designed on group, master have to balance only the party and arrange the game around them. It's quite different. A pale master without instakills is FAR WORSE than any other arcane.

The Devs really do have the deathward property option, but they are limited because of programming. They can not arbitrarly say on some of the mobs there is the deathward property because that requires too much programming; hence, blanket immunites which are not good either. The best option is target and nerf the mass insta kills and leave alone single target insta-kills. For those of you that remember live before mass instakills when the cap in DDO was 16 and below the gameplay was better.

Dling dlong, first mass instakill is before lvl 16, did you know?

[Malshier]

Nah, I'm a wizard flexibility is my true power, necromancy is just my calling card.

I wish I could give you +5,000 internets for this. This PERFECTLY sums it up for me.

[Masadique]

Well, I have 3 elemental lines in 7/1/1 (damage, crit chance, crit multiplier), I don't like clearing mobs on the way to the boss then going afk while the rest of the party takes him down.

Plus undead/drow/constructs and so on can't be insta-killed, what am I supposed to use? Harsh language? Nah, I'm a wizard flexibility is my true power, necromancy is just my calling card.

You, sir, sound like you've properly used that massive main stat of yours. You've restored a bit of my faith in casters.

V

[GermanicusMaximus]

Yes exactly that.. DDO is too one trick for wizard, FVS, Cleric and sorcs if we nerf these insta kill mass spells the players use the other options. It is not mass hold or instakill for a caster as the only two options - just look at all the great spells available for arcanes more should be added sure but the options. One of the best things about the spell pass is it did provide spellcasters a few more options, but the work is not done yet DDO needs more options especially for Divines.

Speaking of this I would like to see on divines the following:
1. Cometfall damage increased.
2. Quicker cast on symbols.
3. Longer duration on greater command.
4. A second higher level version of the alignment spells like holy smite with greater effects.
5. Much improved casting time and damage of the fire spells like Firestorm.
6. Continued improvement of summon spells.

Woot! Just when I thought it was impossible, I find myself actually agreeing with you. Sorta.

Divines would be greatly assisted by

1) An amped up cometfall, including gear that boosted its damage
2) A powerful AoE that didn't involve kiting. Given the melee propensity to ignore blade barriers rather than use them, an AoE that could just be cast on where they opt to stand (assuming they opt to stand together at all) would be useful.

As for the others....

2. Quicker cast on symbols.

Find Quicken feat. Drag to hotbar. Click. Done!

3. Longer duration on greater command.

Cast Cometfall. Get CC and damage. Two for the price of one.

4. A second higher level version of the alignment spells like holy smite with greater effects.

Base lower level spells essentially worthless at level. Higher level spells will likely be worthless at level as well. Plus, I'm busy throwing heals. If I need to start consulting the Monster Manual to determine what alignment spells to cast, I'll likely look up and see an ocean of soul stones where the rest of the party used to be.

5. Much improved casting time and damage of the fire spells like Firestorm.

Firestorm is so worthless I'm not sure it can be made viable.

6. Continued improvement of summon spells

Would only be useful if I could summon a stack of major mana pots

[Udalric]

Woot! Just when I thought it was impossible, I find myself actually agreeing with you. Sorta.

Divines would be greatly assisted by

1) An amped up cometfall, including gear that boosted its damage
2) A powerful AoE that didn't involve kiting. Given the melee propensity to ignore blade barriers rather than use them, an AoE that could just be cast on where they opt to stand (assuming they opt to stand together at all) would be useful.

As for the others....

2. Quicker cast on symbols.

Find Quicken feat. Drag to hotbar. Click. Done!

3. Longer duration on greater command.

Cast Cometfall. Get CC and damage. Two for the price of one.

4. A second higher level version of the alignment spells like holy smite with greater effects.

Base lower level spells essentially worthless at level. Higher level spells will likely be worthless at level as well. Plus, I'm busy throwing heals. If I need to start consulting the Monster Manual to determine what alignment spells to cast, I'll likely look up and see an ocean of soul stones where the rest of the party used to be.

5. Much improved casting time and damage of the fire spells like Firestorm.

Firestorm is so worthless I'm not sure it can be made viable.

6. Continued improvement of summon spells

Would only be useful if I could summon a stack of major mana pots

-First at all divines should get enhancement line for untyped/bludgeon/force dmg/ - this is a must
- add AoE persistent dmg spells like Storm of Vengeance and Earthquake , i have no idea why only Druid gets them ;(
- AoV tier 3 Pre with light dmg SLA for Fvs and similiar light SLA for Cleric Exorcist Pre (both pres are based on silver flame so light dmg is a must.)
- caster focused divine Epic destiny

[Ebonta]

No you do not care about what is for the good of the game. My most true reincarnated character i.e. the character that I have true reincarnated the most is my 5th live cleric who has 3 sorc and 1 wizard past lives. Do you think I speak for my own best interst when I say implosion should be nerfed? This whole situation is not unlike the nerfing of Wounding and Puncturing which made the game better. I can not even believe anyone could argue that a one button mass death spell is a good thing.

Thank you for making wild assumptions and telling me what I care about. I do care about balance, just not a fan of the nerfing. Oh, and Implosion is fine in my opinion.

The mass insta kill spells has routinely made the game less fun for my melee and made DDO boring and less challenging.

Mass Holding and buffboting made DDO boring to me.

In pen and paper in one campaign I was in it was extremely high powered. The dungeon master in that campaign had no problem with throwing out an insta-kill right off the bat. It was quite concieveable for the dungeon master's bad guys to win the initiative and hit me with a finger of death flatfooted without even a chance to react. So what did I do on my level 18+ cleric is I put the death ward property on my armor (the deathward property automatically casts the deatward spell cl 7 whenever a negative energy effect strikes you, but it is only 1 use per day).

I could live with that.

The Devs really do have the deathward property option, but they are limited because of programming. They can not arbitrarly say on some of the mobs there is the deathward property because that requires too much programming; hence, blanket immunites which are not good either. The best option is target and nerf the mass insta kills and leave alone single target insta-kills. For those of you that remember live before mass instakills when the cap in DDO was 16 and below the gameplay was better.

They could just start throwing in some Cleric's with Mass Death Ward into groups. They normally cast that right off the bat. I agree that Wail needs to be nerfed, but the proposed one still needs tweaking.

[danotmano1998]

I love how when turbine makes a change and asks for input we give it.

If they change, then it's because people cried and whined.
If they don't, it's because they're evil and don't care or listen.

Nice!
Either way they can't win.

[Bowser_Koopa]

So if we are ok with Phantasmal Killer because it has 2 saves, and we are not ok with Wail of the Banshee because it has one save. Why not replace Wail of the Banshee with Weird? Or in better news just add Weird into the game anyways we need more illusion spells.

Weird Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Madness 9, Mind 9
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Any number of creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes


You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the affected creatures see the phantasmal creatures attacking them, though you see the attackers as shadowy shapes. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. If a subject’s Fortitude save succeeds, it still takes 3d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1 round. The subject also takes 1d4 points of temporary Strength damage.

If the subject of a weird attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.

[Tyrande]

So if we are ok with Phantasmal Killer because it has 2 saves, and we are not ok with Wail of the Banshee because it has one save. Why not replace Wail of the Banshee with Weird?

Weird Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting][...]

More spells? Certainly. Glad to replace that almost non-useful Summon Monster IX or Meteor Shower.
Illusionist gnome archmages rejoice!!

While we're at it creating new spells, why not this one?

Whine of the Howling Undead
School: Necromancy, of course
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Insanity 9, Sonic 9
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Any number of creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude for Half
Spell Resistance: None

Acts like Mass Vampirism. The caster drains 1d6 per caster level life force from every monster around the caster in a colossus, filling up the caster's hit points. This spell will only work if the caster is in an undead form.

[Bowser_Koopa]

More spells? Certainly. Glad to replace that almost non-useful Summon Monster IX or Meteor Shower.
Illusionist gnome archmages rejoice!!

While we're at it creating new spells, why not this one?

Whine of the Howling Undead
School: Necromancy, of course
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Insanity 9, Sonic 9
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Any number of creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude for Half
Spell Resistance: None

Acts like Mass Vampirism. The caster drains 1d6 per caster level life force from every monster around the caster in a colossus, filling up the caster's hit points. This spell will only work if the caster is in an undead form.

Unless my google powers are terrible you just totally made this up grats to you. However I was working off an earlier post that was made in this thread that stated the Devs were relatively ok with Phantasmal killer because it had a two save mechanic which made it harder to kill a mob rather than the 1 save and die. As such Wail of the Banshee has one save and die, Weird does not it has two like Phantasmal Killer which they have stated they are more in favor of.

And if you didn't make this spell up which seems unlikely well then sure more spells and more variety is always good in my opinion.

Bowserkoopa,

Happens to like watching people insta-kill a hoard of mobs, then again I'm also an evil villain who thinks our Raid bosses are in dire need of some PrE's or something to help them kill us better

[Tyrande]

Unless my google powers are terrible you just totally made this up grats to you.

Yes, I totally made the spell up. However, the level 3 spell Vampiric Touch is there in D&D 3.x and we don't have it here in DDO.

However I was working off an earlier post that was made in this thread that stated the Devs were relatively ok with Phantasmal killer because it had a two save mechanic which made it harder to kill a mob rather than the 1 save and die.

Phantasmal killer is much harder to land. Also, nobody focus on illusion because:

1) It is generally a weaker school since most of the illusion spells are buffs.
2) Also, Pale Masters do not take the illusion school since it is not a PRE requirement.
3) Very few archmages take them.
4) There is one named item that buffs its DC.

As such Wail of the Banshee has one save and die, Weird does not it has two like Phantasmal Killer which they have stated they are more in favor of.
[...] I'm also an evil villain who thinks our Raid bosses are in dire need of some PrE's or something to help them kill us better

I am all for it. Bosses with greensteel weapons and PREs? Hopefully we don't hear the whines from the melees now.

[IllOracle]

Things taking longer/more resources to kill? Does someone else also think the effect, in this proposed balance, is going to impact the divines more than arcanes? My healer certainly hopes it's only on Epic Hard/Elite.

I apologize if it's been stated/asked previously.

[sirgog]

Toning Wail down won't be enough on its own unless this is accompanied by a general increase in mob Fortitude saves. Increasing saves will hurt other class abilities that aren't degenerate (melee stuns, Disintegrate, Greater Shout, etc).

Hope to see something like Haunting in the future as it would make packs of trash mobs (other than ones with stats or abilities explicitly metagamed against player tactics like Shavarath Acolytes, Chronoscope Barbazu and LOB paladins) potentially a relevant part of the game again.

[anto_capone]

Toning Wail down won't be enough on its own unless this is accompanied by a general increase in mob Fortitude saves. Increasing saves will hurt other class abilities that aren't degenerate (melee stuns, Disintegrate, Greater Shout, etc).

Hope to see something like Haunting in the future as it would make packs of trash mobs (other than ones with stats or abilities explicitly metagamed against player tactics like Shavarath Acolytes, Chronoscope Barbazu and LOB paladins) potentially a relevant part of the game again.

If wail was made into a 4-6 kill maximum, and fort saves on epic elite were boosted to reflect their difficulty, then I don't think we'd see so much outrage as we do now.

Haunting and/or hard to kill, left as-is, would kill entire classes and options for play. Less options, less fun, less players.