A fair(?) way to reduce the arcane's power

[Quarterling]

Make caster have to pass AC with their spells.

Spell @&$#*@&#^$% checks.

[sebastianosmith]

if(casterPower > meleePower){
buffMeelee();
doNotNerfCasters();
}

Too verbose. Drop the logical compare and simply:

meleePower = (characterPower)casterPower;

'cause you just know they have the same base class.

[sephiroth1084]

EDIT: After doing some more thinking, why hasn't anyone ever thought of this before? Stillwaters is on the right track it seems. Melees don't have weighted dice, why should the casters get a huge boost to their spells simply because the dice automatically roll higher in their favor?

{Rest of post snipped because is was long and arduous. Honestly don't know why I didn't think of Stillwaters' idea in the first place.}

Final thought: Remove weighted dice from casters. Melees don't get it, why should they?

I addressed Stillwaters' proposal in his/her thread about the idea when it was up. Basically, removing weighted dice doesn't solve any of the problems that need addressing. None. Of. Them.

[Infant]

No one is denying that arcanes do have a great deal of power and do a lot of damage to bad guys. But you're missing the big picture. It's all about balance. Arcanes are squishy and cannot go toe to toe with mobs, so they need to be able to deal out massive punishment to compensate.

...

I feel as I read back on your previous posts that you have an undenyable hatred toward arcane casters. I suggest you take a break from the game, say for a month. You'll feel better then and can resume playing with a fresh perspective.

After following your posts in this thread, I assume you are not trying to be sarcastic or funny in your statements about the game mechanics.

In this case I would like to point out that you must be doing something wrong on your caster:

1. Arcanes aren't squishy. 306 hp isn't "a little below average". A solidly built and moderately equipped sorc/wiz will have 400+hp (with ship buffs and rage). When geared (mainly GS + exc. con items), an arcane will have more like 500 hp. With permanent displacement and proper moving, this is more than enough to survive groups of epic monsters.

2. About "weak first life arcanes". To be effective considering their raid DPS (DoTs) and DCs, arcanes don't need much in terms of gear. Superior elemental clickies are cheap on the AH. To boost the DCs, one can ask a friendly Cannith crafter for Greater Focus items. Add a GS HP or SP item and you're golden! In fact, an arcane is much easier to gear to be effective in raids and epics than a melee!

If you decide to build your caster not to the full power (I really don't know), you can't argue about casters being/not being OP from this standpoint.

Infant

And oh yes, I do play a caster.

[BladeTricks]

side note: Why do people always seem to compare "average melees" to the best geared / best DC's casters. They worked for their gear stop trying to nerf em down, heck I know a barb that can get 1600 on crits (thats alot higher than most casters get), do I think he should get a nerf..no, he worked for his gear.

^^^ THIS!!!!

People ask for nerfs because they've seen min/max'ed, multi-TR'ed, geared arcanes dominate the content they were running? Because, guess what, a newbie arcane will not dominate anything. Low spell pen, DC's in the low 30s, it will fail to CC/insta-kill consistently in end game content.

By they way, for the person impressed about an SLA doing 400 points of damage for 5sp. A barb crits for more than that...

[Silverwren]

In this case I would like to point out that you must be doing something wrong on your caster:

You know, I was going to tell you how much this statement and people like you who make statements like this tick me off. I was going to give you both barrels and tell you that it isn't up to you to tell me or anyone else how to build their character, or that if it isn't done to your satifaction it isn't "wrong". I was going to tell you that it's not "wrong" to dump points into INT and spell focus instead of CON and toughness. And I was going to explain to you that while your 450 HP wizard is running around with no SP left mine will still be casting (and landing) spells because I built mine that way, and that I've got 12 TR tokens that prove my build is just fine, thank you very much.

But nope, I'm not going to do that, and you have no idea how lucky you are!

[Infant]

You know, I was going to tell you how much this statement and people like you who make statements like this tick me off. I was going to give you both barrels and tell you that it isn't up to you to tell me or anyone else how to build their character, or that if it isn't done to your satifaction it isn't "wrong". I was going to tell you that it's not "wrong" to dump points into INT and spell focus instead of CON and toughness. And I was going to explain to you that while your 450 HP wizard is running around with no SP left mine will still be casting (and landing) spells because I built mine that way, and that I've got 12 TR tokens that prove my build is just fine, thank you very much.

But nope, I'm not going to do that, and you have no idea how lucky you are!

Nobody was trying to tell you how to build your caster, you can play the way you want. You stated that casters are squishy. Imho. you can't argue that arcanes are squishy or not OP from that standpoint. What I am trying to say is that, if built and geared properly, arcanes can dominate, even on a first life, without being squishy. Without any sacrifices to DCs. Max Int, max Con, thats the easiest way to build an arcane.

And what are the TR tokens you are talking about?

Infant

[Quarterling]

I addressed Stillwaters' proposal in his/her thread about the idea when it was up. Basically, removing weighted dice doesn't solve any of the problems that need addressing. None. Of. Them.

Yeah after looking though other posts and threads, I have to agree with you.

Really though, I'm tired of wracking my brain against issues like these and I'll leave the "figuring out of things" to others and just enjoy the game.

[.Revenga.]

You know, I was going to tell you how much this statement and people like you who make statements like this tick me off. I was going to give you both barrels and tell you that it isn't up to you to tell me or anyone else how to build their character, or that if it isn't done to your satifaction it isn't "wrong". I was going to tell you that it's not "wrong" to dump points into INT and spell focus instead of CON and toughness. And I was going to explain to you that while your 450 HP wizard is running around with no SP left mine will still be casting (and landing) spells because I built mine that way, and that I've got 12 TR tokens that prove my build is just fine, thank you very much.

But nope, I'm not going to do that, and you have no idea how lucky you are!

So you make your point clear, you do not build and play your caster to it's full potential. This makes your experience irrelevant in this topic. Go enjoy the game.

About comparing triple TR casters to average melee's.. my main melee has done 4 TR's and the other melee's i run with are just as geared ( mostly even more) and TR'd as the casters i play with.
Fact is that at the overgeared level, the difference between melee and arcane becomes even larger:
I ran an eDA yesterday with my barb, i did not get a single madstone proc because not a single mob made a save against the dancing ball. I would wait with swinging my axe untill the caster cast his wail, as it would take out at least 3/4th of all the wave and then me and the other melee's cleaned up the left overs.

As for the game not leaving me a choice to roll a caster: it's much faster and easier to roll and cap a caster and go farm epic scrolls then run the content as intended with a full group again and again. It's a simple case of time efficiency.

[sephiroth1084]

You know, I was going to tell you how much this statement and people like you who make statements like this tick me off. I was going to give you both barrels and tell you that it isn't up to you to tell me or anyone else how to build their character, or that if it isn't done to your satifaction it isn't "wrong". I was going to tell you that it's not "wrong" to dump points into INT and spell focus instead of CON and toughness. And I was going to explain to you that while your 450 HP wizard is running around with no SP left mine will still be casting (and landing) spells because I built mine that way, and that I've got 12 TR tokens that prove my build is just fine, thank you very much.

But nope, I'm not going to do that, and you have no idea how lucky you are!

Is the point you're trying to make that you have good DCs and mediocre HP because you max Int and take Spell Focus feats instead of bothering with Con and Toughness? That you don't magically lose tons of SP by building for HP.

You are aware that you can max Int, take a bunch of Spell Focus feats and get a lot of HP, right? Pale Masters, for example, can get up to over 600 HP while maintaining DCs in the 42-46 range. My PM buffs to a 44 Necro, 42 everything else, and 597 HP. She doesn't have a +2 exceptional Con item, does not have all the ranks of Racial Toughness, and doesn't have any guild augment slots in her gear to boost either her SP or HP.

It's fine if you don't know how to maximize your wizard's potential, but don't go throwing sarcasm and faux-elitism around when you obviously are working under much different assumptions than most of the people posting here.

[Silverwren]

Is the point you're trying to make that you have good DCs and mediocre HP because you max Int and take Spell Focus feats instead of bothering with Con and Toughness? That you don't magically lose tons of SP by building for HP.

You are aware that you can max Int, take a bunch of Spell Focus feats and get a lot of HP, right? Pale Masters, for example, can get up to over 600 HP while maintaining DCs in the 42-46 range. My PM buffs to a 44 Necro, 42 everything else, and 597 HP. She doesn't have a +2 exceptional Con item, does not have all the ranks of Racial Toughness, and doesn't have any guild augment slots in her gear to boost either her SP or HP.

It's fine if you don't know how to maximize your wizard's potential, but don't go throwing sarcasm and faux-elitism around when you obviously are working under much different assumptions than most of the people posting here.

Ah, so it's not the case that ALL casters are accused of being overpowered, just the Pale Masters. We could have saved ourselves a lot of time and effort if the OP had clearly stated that he felt that PALE MASTERS were overpowered. Obviously my poor little Arcane Wizard, while built properly, was indeed "wrong" all along.

In that case, I agree with the OP in that PALE MASTERS are overpowered and need to be nerfed immediately.

And what are the TR tokens you are talking about?

Tokens received for completing epiquests.

[Infant]

Ah, so it's not the case that ALL casters are accused of being overpowered, just the Pale Masters. We could have saved ourselves a lot of time and effort if the OP had clearly stated that he felt that PALE MASTERS were overpowered. Obviously my poor little Arcane Wizard, while built properly, was indeed "wrong" all along.

In that case, I agree with the OP in that PALE MASTERS are overpowered and need to be nerfed immediately.

He named palemasters as an example. It's the same thing with AM, especially if Warforged. And sorcs aswell. You don't have to give up DCs to be non-squishy. On any arcane.

When people say "casters are OP", they mean "reasonably built and equipped casters are OP", not "any randomly built caster is OP".

Tokens received for completing epiquests.

No offense meant, but then I don't think that 12 epic tokens are a strong argument for/against the viability of a character.

Infant

[Feralthyrtiaq]

of the normal forum tripe (but honestly didn't read all 4 pages so there actually may be the usual tripe somewhere up there ^^^^)

But the OPs point is WEIGHTED dice NOT an OPINION but a FACT

From ddowiki Fireball does 1d3+3/level so thats 4-6 per caster level...casters never roll 1s, 2s, or 3s

Longsword 1d8, NOT 1d4+4
Shortsword 1d6, NOT 1d3+3
etc
etc
etc

Very good catch OP!!!

[Feralthyrtiaq]

+1 to yah Q

[Silverwren]

He named palemasters as an example. It's the same thing with AM, especially if Warforged. And sorcs aswell. You don't have to give up DCs to be non-squishy. On any arcane.

When people say "casters are OP", they mean "reasonably built and equipped casters are OP", not "any randomly built caster is OP".

Considering this, here's what I'd like you and everyone else who says it's possible to build a 500HP / 3000SP wizard with DCs in the mid 40's to do:

Tell us how.

Start a thread in the New Player Advice & Guidance section. List out the paths to follow, the feats and enhancements to take at each level. I wouldn't dwell on equipment too much since this is far too great a variable, but you could highlight a few really good or necessary items items if you like.

I'm serious. Since you've convinced me that my build is wrong, tell me and everyone else who's doing it wrong how to do it the right way. It shouldn't be that difficult a task, and you'd be helping the rest of us poor slobs remake our mediocre characters into better ones.

[Infant]

Considering this, here's what I'd like you and everyone else who says it's possible to build a 500HP / 3000SP wizard with DCs in the mid 40's to do:

Tell us how.

Start a thread in the New Player Advice & Guidance section. List out the paths to follow, the feats and enhancements to take at each level. I wouldn't dwell on equipment too much since this is far too great a variable, but you could highlight a few really good or necessary items items if you like.

I'm serious. Since you've convinced me that my build is wrong, tell me and everyone else who's doing it wrong how to do it the right way. It shouldn't be that difficult a task, and you'd be helping the rest of us poor slobs remake our mediocre characters into better ones.

I didn't say your build is wrong. Or at least I didn't mean it. Play what you want. I, myself, by far, don't always build for most power or min-max. What I was pointing at is that it's not correct to argue about the power of a class from the standpoint of not really optimized build.

As to writing the guide: I am not good at writing and not an expert in building, otherwise maybe I would. If you want the information, there is plenty on the forums, it will of course take time to do the research. If you want advice for a specific build, name the "conditions" which are not up for discussion (class split, race, PrE, whatever), I am sure people (myself included) will be ready to help. It's best to do it in a separate thread though.

I think one could say it's general knowledge that you can obtain 40+ DCs in two schools (at least in one for sure), 2000+ SP and 400+ HP on a pure wizard without any rare gear. That is counting ship buffs but no yugo pots. And if you are ready to go out of your way and craft/ask a crafter to make some greater focus items (or grind rare gear for them).

Infant

EDIT: I just saw that you mentioned 3000 SP. I never said that it's easy to get there on a wizzy (easier on a sorc). Most wizards I witnessed perform tasks which are considered "benchmarks" or "important" for a caster (like CC/instakill through eDA or eChrono for example) did that with about 2100SP+/-100SP. I think that is enough, though it's certainly not a bad idea to strive for more.

[Infant]

doublepost

[sephiroth1084]

Considering this, here's what I'd like you and everyone else who says it's possible to build a 500HP / 3000SP wizard with DCs in the mid 40's to do:

Tell us how.

Start a thread in the New Player Advice & Guidance section. List out the paths to follow, the feats and enhancements to take at each level. I wouldn't dwell on equipment too much since this is far too great a variable, but you could highlight a few really good or necessary items items if you like.

I'm serious. Since you've convinced me that my build is wrong, tell me and everyone else who's doing it wrong how to do it the right way. It shouldn't be that difficult a task, and you'd be helping the rest of us poor slobs remake our mediocre characters into better ones.

Leloric has a decent PM build thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302573

You don't need 3,000 SP on a wizard. Really, though, it's not hard from a building standpoint.
When you build the toon, max Int.
Start with a 16 Con if you aren't a drow or a WF, 14 if the former, 18 if the latter.
Pick up Toughness and 2 ranks of Racial Toughness, equip HP gear. If you're a PM, use Lich form.

Honestly, the times are rare where 2200ish SP isn't enough. And in those cases, another 800 SP probably wouldn't cut it either.

[alexp80]

2. About "weak first life arcanes". To be effective considering their raid DPS (DoTs) and DCs, arcanes don't need much in terms of gear. Superior elemental clickies are cheap on the AH. To boost the DCs, one can ask a friendly Cannith crafter for Greater Focus items. Add a GS HP or SP item and you're golden! In fact, an arcane is much easier to gear to be effective in raids and epics than a melee!

Lol step back please.
With that kind of geaer you will be good in hard shroud and hard subs...

In fact, the kind of arcane that you describe overpowered are really harder to equip than a good melee.

Cause, you know, dc is a matter of "all of nothing"; if you are a dps could be mediocre, average, good and so on...
a caster in epic have to be good or a buff bot.

A bunch of gs and a standard eChrono set + 1 set ring from tod and a melee with a solid build is fine.

A caster to pump up his dc at reliable epic level have to grind lot of unique raid items and possibly turn some in the epic version (torch, demon consort, greenblade, ...).
Also needs 2 gs accesories (hp/sp) which means an essence of cleansing, tod set, tons of clickies, a +3/+4 tome...

He also need AT LEAST 1 past life.

THEN, and only then, you will be one of the stellar arcane that can shine in epics like a burning death star

You don't have to think that the average arcane around is one of that... they are pretty rare in fact.

But what you see on forum are the pics of them soloing epics, not the pics of newbie casters not able to CC a simple eLast Stand with 37dc

[sephiroth1084]

Not really...

18 Int
+5 lvls
+3 enh
+2 capstone
+2 lich
+2 yugo
+2 tome
+3 exceptional (back to this in a moment)
+1 human
+6 item
____
44 (+17)

10
+9 Heighten
+17 Int
+1 Spell Focus item
+2 Greater Spell Focus feats
_____
39 DC in any one school
40 in Necro in lich form
37 Enchant if you didn't take any feats for it

Drop a Crushing Despair or Hypno before throwing Mass Hold, and you're golden.
Add a ship buff for another +1 to your DCs, and you're at 38/41.

You can craft an Int +3 scepter on greensteel, or use the Treasure Hunter's Spyglass for a relatively easy to acquire +2 Int that you can pop +1 Int on after a bunch of epic quest and raid runs.

Do a tiny bit of grinding for a Greater Spell Focus item (some aren't hard to acquire at all), and you are up to 39/42 with the ship buff.