Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Aashrym]

I don't think you can legitimately argue that out-of-class access to tempest, SD, or assassin, even without the capstone, would be a pointless feature.

If it costs more than 9 points spent in race tab to unlock racial PrE, you absolutely lock out Capstone + tier 3, even if you only take one class, or import no trees from an 18/2 splash.

If it costs 1 AP it's fine. A person can't use an arbitrary number to decide it will lock out the capstone to state that will be the case. My point on useless would be if it did not take character level into consideration instead of class level because that would limit the PrE to enhancements with no level requirements.

If it cost 9 points that still leaves 71 to apply 41 to the capstone, however, and 30 to other enhancement trees. It would need to cost 40 to lock out the capstone. If that were the case no one would take it. Ever.

[dkyle]

Racial benefits tend to be obvious choices for builds now in some cases. Some people might not like the change but it does open up opportunities.

Racial choices are very rarely obvious currently. Certainly not to the degree Racial PrEs will be.

Once your Race determines your Racial PrE, and your Racial PrE counts more than your multiclass split, a certain Race will absolutely required for most builds. Only alternative option might be Human or Half-elf. Currently, most builds can work with most races. One might be generally favored, but in most cases, others have at least something to offer.

For example, I expect to see (outside of flavor builds) no Half-orc Barbarians, no Dwarven or WF Fighters, no Drow Rangers. Why? Because those race-class combos squander the Racial PrE. It would take absolutely massive racial benefits, aside from the PrE, to make those builds make sense.

I'm not saying encourages or discourages; I'm saying it opens up an option that was not previously there and I can see that making it good for some builds. The 18/2 would not have the same benefits, however. The 18/2 split provides for a racial PrE and 1 class PrE. Could be 2 tier III's possibly but not even 3 tier I's because of the level limitations. The multi-classes have more opportunities for actual PrE's.

18/2 allows for one racial PrE, and up to 2 class PrEs. Same as the multiclass. They're just from the same class. But they can go higher.

Again, it's possible that some combination of PrEs will make multiclassing worthwhile. But the system makes that much more unlikely than the system we have now. There are far greater inherent penalties to multiclassing. So based on what I've seen so far, I can only conclude that these changes are likely to reduce multiclassing.

I would agree they could. They have that issue now however as well. A 12/8/2 does not have access to any 13th+ level enhancements. The new system overcomes this with racial PrE's. This could place a huge stress on race but overlooking how important that becomes it still opens up those high level enhancements that would not otherwise be available.

Racial PrEs don't overcome that at all. Because the pure class gets it as well. The Racial PrE is not a net gain for either type of build, because both types of build gain equally (or at least, the 12/6/2 gains nothing the 18/2 doesn't).

I am not comparing 12/6/2 builds now to 12/6/2 builds in the future. Yes, I anticipate most will improve, relative to now. I expect huge power increases across the board for almost all builds, except the ones that are outright broken. But that's not a relevant comparison. People won't be choosing present 12/6/2 vs future 12/6/2. They'll be choosing between future 12/6/2 and future 18/2 or future pure 20. And for that comparison, racial PrEs simply do not favor the 12/6/2, because all of them get them. If anything, the 12/6/2 loses out, because the trees are so much more contested, so setting aside one for the Racial PrE is a greater opportunity cost.

Pure builds are risking losing the existing capstones. It looks like only 1 PrE will be carrying it even if it does remain in it's current form. That is a potential loss for some.

Again, the relevant comparison isn't current pure build vs future pure build. It's the various future builds against each other. The capstone is nothing but a benefit for pure builds.

Pure builds might also be risking losing access to higher level enhancements in the PrE's within their own classes due to AP cost requirements within the specified skill tree. Spending 41 in one tree and 20-30 in a second tree doesn't leave a lot for the third tree. To hit the top row of enhancements we need 20 spent in either of the other 2 to hit that 5th row. That means by taking any capstone we are locking out the best enhancements available in 1 tree regardless, let alone developing them.

Pure builds "risk" losing access to higher level enhancements.

Multiclass builds will be losing access to higher level enhancements.

Again, favor goes to pure builds. The option of taking or not taking the capstone is a benefit to pure builds, not a detriment.

It's hard to say what is gained or lost yet because it's all still speculation. I can definitely see your concern on the deep splashes not getting higher tier enhancements but they don't get those now anyway.

That's not my concern at all. Precisely because that's how it works now.

My concern is the cost of a tree to multiclass. Currently, going 12/6/2 instead of 18/2 costs the 13-17 level enhancements. In the future, going 12/6/2 will carry that same cost, plus an additional third of the enhancements from the primary class, while gaining the only the same amount of enhancements as currently. 12/6/2 will be strictly more costly than it would be with the current system, for the same amount of benefit. That's the problem.

I would also like to point out that isn't really different from what could happen introducing new PrE's and finishing them using the existing enhancement system.

There's a big difference between some specific PrEs discouraging some specific builds, and a system-wide, fundamental game design that will act to discourage all deep multiclassing.

I don't think we can finish off all the PrE's and introduce more capstones without seeing some builds lose effectiveness in comparison no matter the change to the interface or not. I'm not about to advocate not finishing those off because of it unfortunately.

Of course not.

That doesn't mean we should accept a system that is inherently designed to punish multiclassing more than it already is punished.

[Artos_Fabril]

If it costs 1 AP it's fine. A person can't use an arbitrary number to decide it will lock out the capstone to state that will be the case. My point on useless would be if it did not take character level into consideration instead of class level because that would limit the PrE to enhancements with no level requirements.

If it cost 9 points that still leaves 71 to apply 41 to the capstone, however, and 30 to other enhancement trees. It would need to cost 40 to lock out the capstone. If that were the case no one would take it. Ever.

If it cost 10 (the first whole number more than 9) points, for instance if it was the granted ability (or PrE) of putting 10 points into the racial base tab, you would not be able to take the racial PrE to capstone and get another Tier 3 PrE.

That's not arbitrary, that's basic math. I was not claiming that it would be impossible as it will be finally implemented, I am raising a legitimate concern that should be examined when balance decisions are being made.

I'm not saying encourages or discourages; I'm saying it opens up an option that was not previously there and I can see that making it good for some builds. The 18/2 would not have the same benefits, however. The 18/2 split provides for a racial PrE and 1 class PrE. Could be 2 tier III's possibly but not even 3 tier I's because of the level limitations. The multi-classes have more opportunities for actual PrE's.

You've missed something here: A pure class has access to 3 PrEs + racial, the same as an 18/2 or a 12/6/2 or a 7/7/6 split. The difference is, a pure class has access to 3 PrEs from the same class, compared to the other splits being able to exchange trees from other classes.

So taking your earlier HOrc example:
A pure fighter HOrc could be a Ravager/Kensai/Stalwart/Purple Dragon Knight, with a capstone in any of the 4 PrEs, and 0-39(less the cost of unlocking ravager) points in each of the others.

An 18/2 fighter/monk HOrc could be Ravager/Kensai/Stalwart/PDK, but could only take the ravager capstone, and would have 0-39(less the unlock cost) points to spend in each of the others... unless he wanted a monk enhancement, in which case he'd have to give up an entire fighter tree.

That's still not not such a bad choice, he probably didn't want abilities from all 3 fighter trees, right? Or that monk enhancement was just that good that it was worth giving up a tree he'd have otherwise invested points in.

I would agree they could. They have that issue now however as well. A 12/8/2 does not have access to any 13th+ level enhancements. The new system overcomes this with racial PrE's. This could place a huge stress on race but overlooking how important that becomes it still opens up those high level enhancements that would not otherwise be available.

Now lets go to the 12/6/2 (12/8/2, by the way, is 22 levels. Gonna have to put that build on the back burner for a while. )
Now we're getting into real trade-offs. We've got our 12/6/2 HOrc. Just for fun, let's say Fighter/Barb/Rogue, I'll explain why shortly, but first: The Breakdown.
X points to unlock ravager
41 for capstone
20 points for tier 2 PrE (Stalwart)
10 points for tier 1 PrE (Occult Slayer)
0-9 points remaining? Maybe we're over-budget already! We still don't know the cost to unlock the racial PrE.
3 out of 4 trees locked in.

Our HOrc has dumped 41+ points into unlocking ravager and got some cool stuff out of it, but we want to be able to tank too, that's why we went Fighter and Stalwart. We've got the feats and lots of HP for tanking, but all the tanky Barb stuff is in the occult slayer tree, not to mention 1/3rd of the rage enhancements, so we've gone back and picked up 6 levels in a class that we already had for a racial PrE, so that we could actually use it.

Ravager Is a bonus tree, it just cost some AP to unlock it, We took rogue at first level (obviously!) and at second we grabbed barb and swapped out all of the rogue PrEs for the Barb ones, later on, we took some fighter levels swapped out Ravager for Kensai, since it fell behind what was being offered in the racial tree anyway. Glad that was an easy decision... wait back up a second, what do you mean Kensai?! Well there's not a lot of tanking going on at level 12, so we grabbed some extra DPS to level up. Our Evasion Kensai-FB Ravager really rocked for a while, but now we hit Amrath we'd really like some more HP, %damage reduction and the spell defense from OS, so we swap to the our (more or less) Final build.

Stalwart Defender at tier 2 for HP and % damage reduction.
Occult Slayer at tier 1 for spell defense benefits and rage synergy with ravager
Now what do we take for the 3rd PrE tree? Haste boost is in Kensai, but STR is in PDK, or we could grab the FB tree for more rage bonuses, because there isn't a general tab for barbs and 1/3rd of the rage enhancements are in ravager and OS each...

Well, the ravager capstone isn't the best for tanking, lets drop the top tier abilities to free up some AP, we still have ravager III for DPS... Man now that we've got some extra AP, I sure wish there was a general tab (even if it was just for the class i had the most levels in) so I could get haste boost and Fighter STR. Hmmm...

Well, I got a little carried away there, but anyway. You don't have more or fewer actual PrE options as a pure class than a multi-class, you get 3 each way. You just have to pick your 3 more carefully if you're a multiclass. In fact, being able to take more than one PrE from the same class swings things more in the direction of going pure. Especially if Kensai STR I, II stacks with Purple Dragon Knight STR I,II and Stalwart defender STR I,II.

P.S. Don't compare multi-class now to multi-class after this change, and then say it's more powerful than pure-class after the change, without comparing pure-class post change and multi-class post change against each other. Two of the relics of the current system is that the bulk of enhancements are not associated with a specific PrE, and most non-PrE enhancements are available at level 12 (haste boost 4, class stat +3, class toughness n). which encourages, or at least accommodates, splashing 6-8 levels for another class and another PrE.

[kingfisher]

Racial benefits tend to be obvious choices for builds now in some cases. Some people might not like the change but it does open up opportunities.

booya for wf rangers

[Riggs]

Racial choices are very rarely obvious currently. Certainly not to the degree Racial PrEs will be.

Once your Race determines your Racial PrE, and your Racial PrE counts more than your multiclass split, a certain Race will absolutely required for most builds. Only alternative option might be Human or Half-elf. Currently, most builds can work with most races. One might be generally favored, but in most cases, others have at least something to offer.

For example, I expect to see (outside of flavor builds) no Half-orc Barbarians, no Dwarven or WF Fighters, no Drow Rangers. Why? Because those race-class combos squander the Racial PrE. It would take absolutely massive racial benefits, aside from the PrE, to make those builds make sense.



18/2 allows for one racial PrE, and up to 2 class PrEs. Same as the multiclass. They're just from the same class. But they can go higher.

Again, it's possible that some combination of PrEs will make multiclassing worthwhile. But the system makes that much more unlikely than the system we have now. There are far greater inherent penalties to multiclassing. So based on what I've seen so far, I can only conclude that these changes are likely to reduce multiclassing.



Racial PrEs don't overcome that at all. Because the pure class gets it as well. The Racial PrE is not a net gain for either type of build, because both types of build gain equally (or at least, the 12/6/2 gains nothing the 18/2 doesn't).

I am not comparing 12/6/2 builds now to 12/6/2 builds in the future. Yes, I anticipate most will improve, relative to now. I expect huge power increases across the board for almost all builds, except the ones that are outright broken. But that's not a relevant comparison. People won't be choosing present 12/6/2 vs future 12/6/2. They'll be choosing between future 12/6/2 and future 18/2 or future pure 20. And for that comparison, racial PrEs simply do not favor the 12/6/2, because all of them get them. If anything, the 12/6/2 loses out, because the trees are so much more contested, so setting aside one for the Racial PrE is a greater opportunity cost.



Again, the relevant comparison isn't current pure build vs future pure build. It's the various future builds against each other. The capstone is nothing but a benefit for pure builds.



Pure builds "risk" losing access to higher level enhancements.

Multiclass builds will be losing access to higher level enhancements.

Again, favor goes to pure builds. The option of taking or not taking the capstone is a benefit to pure builds, not a detriment.



That's not my concern at all. Precisely because that's how it works now.

My concern is the cost of a tree to multiclass. Currently, going 12/6/2 instead of 18/2 costs the 13-17 level enhancements. In the future, going 12/6/2 will carry that same cost, plus an additional third of the enhancements from the primary class, while gaining the only the same amount of enhancements as currently. 12/6/2 will be strictly more costly than it would be with the current system, for the same amount of benefit. That's the problem.



There's a big difference between some specific PrEs discouraging some specific builds, and a system-wide, fundamental game design that will act to discourage all deep multiclassing.



Of course not.

That doesn't mean we should accept a system that is inherently designed to punish multiclassing more than it already is punished.

on the mark - esp in red.

[Riggs]

A little bit more thinking on the subject and a few thoughts;

People are very concerned with locking out access to key enhancements – like ONLY being able to take sneak on a certain pre, or str in a fighter etc. I don’t remember if it was players or devs that posted it – but I was under the impression that any general lines could count for any of the pres for that class – once you take them – you can decide which pre they will qualify you for, and then they are locked out for other pre lines.

So you could take ftr str for any line – but then you cant use ftr str as a pre-req for a second line at the same time – and also cannot, or should not be able to take ftr str twice or three times – that would be OP esp for wiz int, sorc cha etc. A monk that could get +9 to wis instead of +3 would have a lot more stuns going on for example. Triple stacking barbs would be stupid. A drow wiz/pm/arch/wildmage with 58 int? Silly.

I believe maybe the initial quote from Eladrin was they would stack, but the amount of people saying this is a bad idea should hopefully quell that stacking feature.

Other;

In general, in pnp – Prestige classes were not tied to class except at low levels. This concept should be kept. Most prestige classes were primarily multiclass builds. They were interesting, and gave a power boost to non-pure classes (most classes other than fighters already had a good reason to stay pure, moreso with capstones, so they didn’t need extra powers). Pure classes did, or should, get increasingly powerful with level, which left multiclasses much weaker at higher levels.

To repeat a point I made like 20 pages ago – racial lines should NOT allow, by themselves, tier 3 access.

The old idea of ‘favored classes’ gave a reduction of the xp penalty for multiclassing. A elf ftr/wiz could level up without the penalty, where a gnome or halfling would take an xp hit for that multiclass. Or back in 2nd edition – increased the levels you got multiclassing for specific favored classes – so an elf wiz/ftr would be a higher level wiz than a dwarf wiz/ftr, while the dwarf would probably be a higher level ftr. (I don’t remember the exact charts anymore).

How this should translate into DDO is to not allow tier 3 access – but make tier 3 access cheaper for favored lines/classes/prestige lines.

Take arcane archer for example. The only real requirement is supposed to be – be able to cast spells, and have bow feats. That could be a ftr/wiz, pure ranger, monk/ranger, rogue/wiz that spent feats on bows etc. You get to access tier 3 arcane archer without being level 18 in any particular class – being an elf, or being a ranger just makes it easier and/or cheaper.

Kensai for example – should not require being a fighter 18 to get tier 3. It should require a certain bab, some feats (which really makes it easier for fighters to get). Period. Thematically there is no reason a monk should not be able to take kensai with fists – regardless of race. The cost of AP would lock out other monk lines – but then if you just want to hit stuff with your fists, maybe you dont care if you can jade strike certain monsters.

The point above from dkyle re races making some class/race combos obsolete is a very real danger under what is being proposed. No more horc barbs? Well Halflings make better dpsers! A dwarf pally that has access to ftr defender AND pally defender lines? Maybe that becomes the must have tank? Or human pally with ftr defender line because they get amp and can access anything, with a splash of ravager thrown in? Under the current proposal race is going to go from flavor and minor benefits (except for WF which are not longer considered tanks), to certain races being required for certain roles.

While many will decry the ‘required’ idea – most people who think this is not the case spend less time at high level play than they think, and don’t realize what is going to happen to monster power levels, and don’t really get the idea that people that want to complete high level raids want to COMPLETE high level raids and content – not fail in a fun way.

So again – I suggest very strongly, that race should not open tier 3, and maybe not even tier 2 lines in and of themselves. They should make certain favored lines cheaper in cost, and maybe open up tier 1 – but that’s it.

What should open up lines is not pure classing – but meeting requirements in a cost of feats, bab, spellcasting, etc. A ravager 3 might be an 18 barb, or it might be a 6 barb/12 fighter. From the Sword and Fist book:

Requirements
To qualify to become a Ravager, a character must fulfill
all the following criteria.
Alignment: Chaotic evil, chaotic neutral, neutral evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Feats: Dirty Fighting, Power Attack, Sunder.
Intimidate: 3 ranks.
Knowledge (religion): 3 ranks.
Wilderness Lore 4 ranks.

No where in that list is “Barbarian levels”. A wizard could become a ravager at level 10 if they wanted – they would just be a weaker one than a fighter or barbarian, and a weaker wizard too – but they would be a very focused melee build that could still work.

Ninja of the Cresent Moon, Requirements;
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Quick-Draw.
Move Silently 10 ranks. Hide 10 ranks.
Other: Evasion class feature

Again, a wide variety of classes can, and should be able to access this pre.

I realize that changing the current system away from the current ‘class required’ part would be even more work than what is being proposed – but with the idea of moving away from it already why not just go a bit further?

What should qualify you for tier 3 or a capstone should be; BAB 12 say, plus certain feats, 7d6 of sneak damage (which could make a Halfling dark monk get access to tier 3 assassin line), or being able to cast (x) level of spells.

However for casting prestige lines – it is harder to rationalize being able to be a full archmagi without full wiz levels…a 12 wiz/6 fighter /2 rogue really cannot justify being called an ‘archmage’. But maybe a 12 wizard/8 cleric could? Or 8 sorc (I know it’s a stupid build) – but just make the requirement ‘18 casting levels, of which at least 12 are wizard levels’. Not 18 wizard levels.

The requirements for each pre should be such that simply all races and classes cannot take any and all pre lines up to tier 3 – that would be silly. But with the ’41 for capstone’ already listed, and by simply making favored class/race combos somewhat cheaper to gain entry into a pre, and non-favored having to spend more – that would effectively limit the possible stacking OP silliness that is going to probably result from racial tier 3 access now.

The cost of racial lines? Maybe say they get up to level 6/tier 1 enhancement lines for their favored classes/pres. An elf fighter could access wizard, or ranger enhancements to level 6. A Halfling fighter or monk or whatever could still get level 6 rogue lines. But not level 12 or 18 or 20.

A race with the favored class – could access each tier for 2-3 points less say. So a Halfling rogue would get tier 1 at 7 points, not 10, tier 3 at 21 points, and capstone at either 32, or 29. Under this system, they wont be able to qualify for ANOTHER capstone on top – unless you want to allow taking 2 class pre lines – (which is currently not allowed). So a WF rogue could only get 1 rogue capstone, and tier 2 of something else, but a halfling rogue (or human) could get assassin AND acrobat say?

Personally I think multiple tier 3 lines should not be allowed regardless of cost. And cost not be made the barrier – but simply once you take a tier 3 line – you get that one and only tier 3 line, and capstone. You can have multiple tier 2’s and 1’s maybe, but only one tier 3/capstone period even if you have the points for it. In my above example of the Halfling dark monk – if they could qualify for Assassin, they can either take tier 3 Assassin, or tier 3 Ninja – not both. But they could be a Ninja 3/Assassin 2, or vice versa.

And this is assuming that the power levels of tier 1-2 for most lines are not so OP to make not taking multiple tier 2 lines gimp your character in relation to everyone else that did. If the AP are that powerful - the other things you should be able to put them into - the basic class/race lines should be actually useful enough that if you spend 20 points on Tempest 2, or spent the 20 points on just Fighter lines - you get 20 points worth of benefit - not one is crazy useful and the base enhancements are trash.

Anyway, its late and I am repeating myself.

[Aashrym]

Racial choices are very rarely obvious currently. Certainly not to the degree Racial PrEs will be.

Once your Race determines your Racial PrE, and your Racial PrE counts more than your multiclass split, a certain Race will absolutely required for most builds. Only alternative option might be Human or Half-elf. Currently, most builds can work with most races. One might be generally favored, but in most cases, others have at least something to offer.

For example, I expect to see (outside of flavor builds) no Half-orc Barbarians, no Dwarven or WF Fighters, no Drow Rangers. Why? Because those race-class combos squander the Racial PrE. It would take absolutely massive racial benefits, aside from the PrE, to make those builds make sense.

Racial choices open up PrE options but they would still be missing the base class abilities. It might not be that cut and dried. If a player makes a horc barbarian they don't need to spend the points to unlock 1 tree and can choose from 3 barbarian trees and have actual barbarian class abilities. Those barbarian class abilities are missing if he were to make a fighter with some ravager enhancements.

Splashing that barbarian means the horc can still have full ravager plus additional benefits added on from whatever he splashes, deep or not but with a 2nd barbarian tree like frenzied still available.

18/2 allows for one racial PrE, and up to 2 class PrEs. Same as the multiclass. They're just from the same class. But they can go higher.

Again, it's possible that some combination of PrEs will make multiclassing worthwhile. But the system makes that much more unlikely than the system we have now. There are far greater inherent penalties to multiclassing. So based on what I've seen so far, I can only conclude that these changes are likely to reduce multiclassing.

The class with the 2 levels will allow access to 3 potential skill trees to choose but I thought we had confirmation that there are also level limits attached to those PrE's and enhancements in the trees. 2 levels would not meet a whole lot. That leaves 1 race (with no inherent class abilities) and 1 class.

Going higher in 2 trees means almost completely ignoring that 3rd tree or racial enhancements and still giving up potentially a lot. Actually using all the trees even a bit would effectively prohibit 2 deep PrE's I would think.

Racial PrEs don't overcome that at all. Because the pure class gets it as well. The Racial PrE is not a net gain for either type of build, because both types of build gain equally (or at least, the 12/6/2 gains nothing the 18/2 doesn't).

Not having access to high tiers in the skill tree and a capstone or not having access to high tiers and a capstone. It is only possible to do that because of the racial PrE. Not having that restricts the options more.

I am not comparing 12/6/2 builds now to 12/6/2 builds in the future. Yes, I anticipate most will improve, relative to now. I expect huge power increases across the board for almost all builds, except the ones that are outright broken. But that's not a relevant comparison. People won't be choosing present 12/6/2 vs future 12/6/2. They'll be choosing between future 12/6/2 and future 18/2 or future pure 20. And for that comparison, racial PrEs simply do not favor the 12/6/2, because all of them get them. If anything, the 12/6/2 loses out, because the trees are so much more contested, so setting aside one for the Racial PrE is a greater opportunity cost.

A future 12/6/2, future 18/2, and future 20 all have the option to get a capstone or go heavy into one tree, and then spend point among 2 more trees. The 18/2 or 20 might have the option to go heavily into a second tree but that mean they are almost totally ignoring racial enhancements and that 3rd tree.

What it boils down to is choosing the class we want to focus on, choosing a race we want to get an enhancement tree for that will help the class, deciding what other enhancement trees will help with that, if those are in the class then we don't deep splash, if there are some that do look better than the trees we won't be able to afford in class we do splash for them.

That is still not really any different than the decisions we make now with the exception that deep splashes can provide higher level enhancements with a race unlock option. That is a benefit of the proposed change. Giving a deep splash higher tier options that would only be available to pure or small dips is a benefit.

Pure builds "risk" losing access to higher level enhancements.

Multiclass builds will be losing access to higher level enhancements.

They don't have higher level enhancements to lose. The change provides the potential to add higher level enhancements. The same option to take or not take the capstone will exist for multis too. That is not a benefit for pure classes if they can both have access to the same choice.

My concern is the cost of a tree to multiclass. Currently, going 12/6/2 instead of 18/2 costs the 13-17 level enhancements. In the future, going 12/6/2 will carry that same cost, plus an additional third of the enhancements from the primary class, while gaining the only the same amount of enhancements as currently. 12/6/2 will be strictly more costly than it would be with the current system, for the same amount of benefit. That's the problem.

You gain tree at the cost of a tree. It's even the choice of a tree. The cost of not multiclassing is only have 3 trees without that choice. Not only that, going heavily into 1 tree still prohibits going into all 3 so much. There is no effective difference in losing access to a set of enhancements over not being able to afford them in the first place.

So far it looks to me like focusing in any tree regardless of if it is a class tree or not could be removing existing class enhancement options as they get moved into various trees at various tiers.

Currenly you lose 13-17th enhancements but in the future that option can be removed with a racial PrE unlock. That advantage is limited but will exist where now it does not outside of arcane archer. That is full of potential.

That doesn't mean we should accept a system that is inherently designed to punish multiclassing more than it already is punished.

Here is the thing. I don't think the new system looks like it punishes multiclassing any more than the existing system would if we were to add more capstones, higher level enhancements, and complete PrE's. That lack of higher level enhancements would still exist.

[Aashrym]

on the mark - esp in red.

No, because taking the actual class also adds the actual class abilities and access to 2 more class trees. And frees up the unlock AP.

[Aashrym]

Now we're getting into real trade-offs. We've got our 12/6/2 HOrc. Just for fun, let's say Fighter/Barb/Rogue, I'll explain why shortly, but first: The Breakdown.
X points to unlock ravager
41 for capstone
20 points for tier 2 PrE (Stalwart)
10 points for tier 1 PrE (Occult Slayer)
0-9 points remaining? Maybe we're over-budget already! We still don't know the cost to unlock the racial PrE.
3 out of 4 trees locked in.

To make this short and sweet so I can go to sleep, how is that different than paying the AP for not being a deep splash utilizing the racial PrE?

41 for capstone, 20 for Pre II other class tree, 10 for Pre I on the 3rd class tree, 9 left over for anything else. That locks out the 3rd tree just as much as a multi.

[red_cardinal]

I don't care what they do now or how. To me it's the same old thing with a shiny new UI and cost changes to existing enhancements. I'd much rather see what I've been saying all the time in this thread and I guess players wanted to see for years:

- add unfinished prestiges,
- fix bugged abilities (Void 2, Sniper shot, ...),
- fix broken feats and enhancements,
- buff rarely used,
- add new interesting feats.


To me, the above impacts gameplay and multiclassing the most.
Lack of unfinished prestiges reduced multiclassing.
Bugged expensive ehnacements disappointed me when I got them.
Broken/unused/missing feats reduce interesting tactics.

[Morlen]

I'm pretty darn excited... There could be room for a lot of fun and viable custom builds.

One thing seems certain... I see a spike in Heart of Wood sales in the future.

Question though: As people have mentioned, the racial PREs you have used as examples are the same as current class PREs. Would a part of this have to do with making them work with ToD rings?

[Akianna]

Now this question may have been asked already, and I did try to read the thread before posting, but before I knew this thread turned into the equivalent of being written in Greek for me. I was just curious, is this up on Llama land yet?

[Riggs]

I don't care what they do now or how. To me it's the same old thing with a shiny new UI and cost changes to existing enhancements....
I'd much rather see what I've been saying all the time in this thread and I guess players wanted to see for years:
[color=yellow]
- add unfinished prestiges,
- blah blah blah

Clearly you do not see what the changes will mean, or care. So why are you posting so much?

If you actually read more than this week's worth of dev tracker - you would know that Turbine has said repeatedly they are working on several updates at a time - like a year out. So when an update hits Lam it was not just done a month ago and they are all willing to change everything from player feedback - it was being worked on for a year, is basically 95% DONE, and very little changes until after it is released and complaints pile up. once in a while stuff gets changed to a greater degree - but usually not.

So the fact that this whole thing is even being considered for mid year means it has been on the books for 6 months. The fact that one the first day of posting this thread - Eladrin was already in here with projected changes for Tempest already said and done - subject to change, but already done. Madfloyd already has the mockup UI ready - on day 1.

The change is coming - whining and bellyaching about missing Pre lines also means you have not even read all the dev posts in THIS thread. Because that was addressed. So do yourself a favor - read more and post less - since you just said above you dont know and dont care what these changes actually mean.

[Riggs]

I'm pretty darn excited... There could be room for a lot of fun and viable custom builds.

One thing seems certain... I see a spike in Heart of Wood sales in the future.

Question though: As people have mentioned, the racial PREs you have used as examples are the same as current class PREs. Would a part of this have to do with making them work with ToD rings?

I said a long time ago Tod rings should be de-coupled from prestige lines.

You find one of 6 rings, Str/Dex/Con etc.
You take 1 trophy + ring + crafting altar - you add the +1 exception stat of your choice.
You take say 3 more trophies, and add the prestige line of your choice.
You take 6 (or maybe still 9) trophies, and add whatever tier 2 GS bonus you want to that ring.

So you can make your Str +1 str ring a kensai ring, or a shintao ring, or palemaster if you want.

People will immediately jump on the fact that every melee will make a Shintao ring - because the set bonus is better than every other melee set bonus.

This only points to the fact that most of the Tod set bonuses are trash, and the stat and set bonuses are useless to 90% of the classes they are supposed to be for. Not that the mechanic is bad to craft them.

Alternatively - you loot a prestige ring. THEN you add whatever stats you want with crafting. But that doesnt change the fact that most of the sets are trash and people only want a couple out of the 30 or so.

[Riggs]

No, because taking the actual class also adds the actual class abilities and access to 2 more class trees. And frees up the unlock AP.

A barb doesnt get assassin lines. A halfling does. A horc barb doesnt get kensai, a human barb can.
A horc that can access ravager gains nothing unless the tier 3/capstone costs less than it would otherwise - making horc a useful race for a barb - but then we get OP silliness like double capstone horc barbs, double capstone elf arcanes, double capstone human or dwarf tanks - which is simply too stupidly overpowered to be allowed in the game.

[Riggs]

Now this question may have been asked already, and I did try to read the thread before posting, but before I knew this thread turned into the equivalent of being written in Greek for me. I was just curious, is this up on Llama land yet?

Read the dev tracker first.

1. because a dev answered that question already - and the tracker takes you right to their posts.

2. If it was on Lamannia - that would be in the dev tracker too - and you would already have your answer now no?

[red_cardinal]

Clearly you do not see what the changes will mean, or care. So why are you posting so much?

I don't care what they do and there is no way to influence them since they have a straight line ahead of them. After all, THEY ARE DESIGNERS and PROGRAMMERS.

If you actually read more than this week's worth of dev tracker - you would know that Turbine has said repeatedly they are working on several updates at a time - like a year out.
So the fact that this whole thing is even being considered for mid year means it has been on the books for 6 months. The fact that one the first day of posting this thread - Eladrin was already in here with projected changes for Tempest already said and done - subject to change, but already done. Madfloyd already has the mockup UI ready - on day 1.

I DID READ IT ALL, that's why I'm posting so much. Spending 6 months on this seems a lot, if not to much. They are only rearranging existing elements in the new UI - adjusting costs and prerequisites. Do you really think that they will make something totally new - unseen before in this game?

The change is coming - whining and bellyaching about missing Pre lines also means you have not even read all the dev posts in THIS thread. Because that was addressed. So do yourself a favor - read more and post less - since you just said above you dont know and dont care what these changes actually mean.

I don't care in a way it's my company or my game or that my job depends on it, but I did put myself in that position in theory which is why some of my posting is like that. If that angers you or somebody else, I'm fine with that. I'm a programmer myself. I'd never make a new UI like they did. I'd rather finish off what's missing and ajdust/fix what seems that it needs fixing/adjusting. That's my standpoint.

I won't quote myself, but what I outlined before in yellow is what the core of the problem is. UI itself is a different thing and doesn't matter to much.

[Auran82]

I don't care what they do and there is no way to influence them since they have a straight line ahead of them. After all, THEY ARE DESIGNERS and PROGRAMMERS.



I DID READ IT ALL, that's why I'm posting so much. Spending 6 months on this seems a lot, if not to much. They are only rearranging existing elements in the new UI - adjusting costs and prerequisites. Do you really think that they will make something totally new - unseen before in this game?



I don't care in a way it's my company or my game or that my job depends on it, but I did put myself in that position in theory which is why some of my posting is like that. If that angers you or somebody else, I'm fine with that. I'm a programmer myself. I'd never make a new UI like they did. I'd rather finish off what's missing and ajdust/fix what seems that it needs fixing/adjusting. That's my standpoint.

The red part more or less proves you have either not read it all, or you have not understood anything they have said.

[Riggs]

I don't care what they do and there is no way to influence them since they have a straight line ahead of them. After all, THEY ARE DESIGNERS and PROGRAMMERS.

Ha. Dont care, but keep asking to stop what they are doing? And...no way to influence them? No you really have no idea what goes on on this forum - you really dont.

I DID READ IT ALL, that's why I'm posting so much. Spending 6 months on this seems a lot, if not to much. They are only rearranging existing elements in the new UI - adjusting costs and prerequisites. Do you really think that they will make something totally new - unseen before in this game?

If you actually read the dev tracker - Madfloyd said that they want to finish all the unfinished lines as a PART of this change. So...yeah you say read it, but keep asking Turbine to finish the unfinished lines...which this will do..."Dont do what you are doing, but finish the lines!". If you are trying to say I, and Turbine, is wrong about the 6 month thing - then no - you have not spent a lot of time reading the dev tracker. Whether you read it or not - its still in there.

I don't care in a way it's my company or my game or that my job depends on it, but I did put myself in that position in theory which is why some of my posting is like that. If that angers you or somebody else, I'm fine with that. I'm a programmer myself. I'd never make a new UI like they did. I'd rather finish off what's missing and ajdust/fix what seems that it needs fixing/adjusting. That's my standpoint.

You must work for a very small company where you get to tell yourself your own planning schedule a year out and have no bosses to tell you a different plan. And have no marketing department that pushes for big splashy releases, not "2012! Year of the bug fix!"

And "Hey - lets plan a massive update - we need what? a month? two months to plan/design/write/test/debug/test again/announce/release on Lam/final debug? No problem - U13 in 2 months!"

yeah. sure.

[red_cardinal]

And "Hey - lets plan a massive update - we need what? a month? two months to plan/design/write/test/debug/test again/announce/release on Lam/final debug? No problem - U13 in 2 months!"

yeah. sure.

Yes, I am for one such update. That's my point.
U13 in 2 months

- bugfixes only,
- undone enhancements and prestiges only.

Period. And after that watch the Hears of wood sales go over the top.