Release update 12 already so we can get closer to update 13's release

[cforce]

A better way to think of the release cycles is like a mortar. At some point in the past, they could futz around with the mortar -- change alignment, direction. Then, they say, "ok, looks good -- let's fire this one". After that shell has left the chamber, nothing else going on is going to change where it lands. If you realign the mortar now, it doesn't matter -- the shell is already in the air. If you realize afterwards that you're a little off-target, the best you can do is make adjustments for the *next* shot. The mortar for update 12 probably got fired off about 4 months ago. If you have a really good idea right now, post it on the forums, and Eladrin loves it, it's probably not going to get "loaded into the chamber" until about the update 14 or 15 shell (which is probably the one they're actually aiming right now).

This is a little bit of hyperbole, but not by much. A lot of folks who've done a little bit of small-scale coding -- teams of 5-10 people -- can mistakenly assume that the last minute changes and decisions made on a small, agile team can still be done when you've got 40-50 people working on a commercial software product.

[maddmatt70]

A better way to think of the release cycles is like a mortar. At some point in the past, they could futz around with the mortar -- change alignment, direction. Then, they say, "ok, looks good -- let's fire this one". After that shell has left the chamber, nothing else going on is going to change where it lands. If you realign the mortar now, it doesn't matter -- the shell is already in the air. If you realize afterwards that you're a little off-target, the best you can do is make adjustments for the *next* shot. The mortar for update 12 probably got fired off about 4 months ago. If you have a really good idea right now, post it on the forums, and Eladrin loves it, it's probably not going to get "loaded into the chamber" until about the update 14 or 15 shell (which is probably the one they're actually aiming right now).

This is a little bit of hyperbole, but not by much. A lot of folks who've done a little bit of small-scale coding -- teams of 5-10 people -- can mistakenly assume that the last minute changes and decisions made on a small, agile team can still be done when you've got 40-50 people working on a commercial software product.

Oh I am aware of the development realities here, but I also think that update 12 is not update worthy. I was not too excited about update 10 and I do not have fond memories of update 9 or update 8 for that matter. Update 12 = not update worthy status. There needs to be more update 11s and less update 12s in my opinion so however Turbine wants to package that or market the game to give us more update 11s I am all for it. If update 13 is basically done instead of spending time on the later phases of update 12/bugging testing/refining lets in essence skip it and work on 13s refining bugging testing/ etc.

[Emag]

not how it works.


Releasing a buggy broken U12 won't make U13 faster.

It will halt U13 devleopement entirely while they focus 100% on deploying a hotfix for the major bugs they missed in U12 due to lack of testing.

They otherwise are already working on U13 and probably U14 side by side right now, thats how they've always done thing.

Gona be a bit anyways, they are busy strining us along like playthings releasing 1 challenge at a time every day. Annoying imo, but just 1 dungeon left ot unlock.

What is ML for if not to test the bugs? Mods go in with a ton of bugs every time. This one won't be any different.

/signed to the op.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I believe it was one of those wrapping up the weeks with MajMal threads, but MajMal did say that the days of content-only even-numbered updates were done. All updates from now on will be full system updates. What that exactly means, I guess, is up for debate. But we should no longer say "Even update, just a pack."

My understanding of his statement was that they were no longer going to have 2-in-1 updates, where both are actually included in one download but only have half of it available initially, and a couple months later they simply switch on the other half of the content and call it a new update.

[patang01]

not how it works.


Releasing a buggy broken U12 won't make U13 faster.

It will halt U13 devleopement entirely while they focus 100% on deploying a hotfix for the major bugs they missed in U12 due to lack of testing.

They otherwise are already working on U13 and probably U14 side by side right now, thats how they've always done thing.

Gona be a bit anyways, they are busy strining us along like playthings releasing 1 challenge at a time every day. Annoying imo, but just 1 dungeon left ot unlock.

This - half the items in the challenge system doesn't work. And the quests themselves are bugged. One can only hope that there's a strong desire to fix all of it before this is released before we have another 11 and 11.1 mess to deal with.

[AZgreentea]

I do wish they would stop adding new systems until they finish the old ones (or at least WORK on the old ones)

Well... Technically U12 does allow us to unlock Artie with favor, so in a way they are working on the old systems. Plus U12 contains some fixes and mods to old quests and some asked for stuff like Plat storage.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

W/E MajMal. Using update 10 and 12 as evidence, it still looks like the major systems updates are on odd updates with patchy things and systems tweaks (plus content) on even updates. I only expect crazy big stuff (new PRE's, new classes, etc) on odd updates.

Go ahead. Add the melee favored soul PRE to Update 12. Prove me wrong.

For now on--well, since 10, every update is it's own thing. it may be content and systems, only content, or whatever. There is no more piggybacking releases.

U13? Really? Personally I love challenges, and the possibilities they bring to the table. Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.


patang01- yes they are bugs. PREVIEW SERVER. The hue and cry after the great crafting debacle of 2011 was 'more preview earlier' from the community. So that is what we do. It will be buggy. Earlier does not mean we are done any sooner, it just means you see into the sausage making earlier.

Why a staggered unlock (Shade)?- controlling the info coming in. We are doing 4 props in 7 days on Lamma to be able to quickly change things. It is a new idea. We shut off things / controlled access so we can digest any info we get out of the server. Maybe it did or didn't work. It did show me that we need more population on Lamannia. I have a few ideas for that.

[Gleep_Wurp]

not how it works.


Releasing a buggy broken U12 won't make U13 faster.

It will halt U13 devleopement entirely while they focus 100% on deploying a hotfix for the major bugs they missed in U12 due to lack of testing.

They otherwise are already working on U13 and probably U14 side by side right now, thats how they've always done thing.

Gona be a bit anyways, they are busy strining us along like playthings releasing 1 challenge at a time every day. Annoying imo, but just 1 dungeon left ot unlock.

what makes you think they focus 100% on anything? and a side note they dont fix major bugs unless they are to our advantage

[Cyr]

Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.

My view on this is pretty simple. If I wanted to play a RTS there are some GREAT RTS to choose from. Why would I play DDO for the little bit they might dabble in RTS game design?

This is just like PvP. Why in the world would I play DDO to pvp? There are some great pvp focused games out there. Why would I play DDO to pvp when it is a sideshow mechanic?

Basically the reason why games do not have lots of different pieces of different genres in them as fully functional and desirable elements is because the developers do not have the time to fully do everything to really appeal to each specific genre's fans. Best case is it's a fun little diversion in the game that you might do once in a blue moon. Worst case the game developers try to tie it into the rest of the game in a manner that you feel penalized for not persuing their latest sideshow in the rest of the game or it effects you even without doing it (like the often hated pvp balance passes done in some games that effect pve also).

[Scraap]

Why only have one game style in an MMO?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the disgruntlement with a lack of PRE progress is precisely because you've already got a framework for multiple styles, whether it's the typical rockem-sockem-robots bit with melee coupled with a rhythm game for feats or finishers depending on class/class combination, or an fps via ranged, or a tactical resource management game controlled by a blue bar.

I'd even be willing to bet most of us are quite satisfied with the hybrid approach since it lends re-playability to content via varying available tactics, making it a stronger game overall. It's just that it does need more refinement, and the presented game thus-far has been along the lines of 'class for baseline, PRE for aspect focus'.

tl;dr: So bout dem der pres. We see dem soons?

[Aashrym]

For now on--well, since 10, every update is it's own thing. it may be content and systems, only content, or whatever. There is no more piggybacking releases.

U13? Really? Personally I love challenges, and the possibilities they bring to the table. Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.

I think the request for the next update stems from the desires among players for PRE completions, druids, more spells for more classes in more schools, etc.

I don't think their is anything wrong with wanting to complete some of those build options so we can play the game you game designers are designing.

[Chai]

Let's call this a patch then instead of an update so Turbine can not get away with waiting 3 months to release the next update. Let's call it patch 11.2...

How about you hold your horses.

Id rather wait for a less buggy U13, than have them festoon it apon us complete with moar lag, a new memory leak or two, and introducing all new ways to break the monk class that we havent experienced yet.

[maddmatt70]

U13? Really? Personally I love challenges, and the possibilities they bring to the table. Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.

Hmm the answer to this is more complicated. I would compare the challenges to crafting. What would you say is more of a worthy effort to put crafting into the game or to put challenges into the game? I would argue that crafting was more important because although it is not essential to playing a pve like this it has become associated with this genre of MMOs. Crafting has become a part of this genre of MMO's brand and by not having crafting in DDO was arguable failing in one aspect of its brand. The challenge system does not fall in that same category.

As Cyr argues you can not have it all in one game so why divert resources to Challenges, something which is not associated with this genre of MMO's brand. Obviously the old Smuggler's Cove was very popular which probably helped spawn the challenge concept, but why was that?

In pnp there are similiar RTS type experiences for e.g. arena fights, puzzles, riddles, etc., but they are tied into the overall story/character development/role playing so what about the challenge system really fits that mold?

[oradafu]

U13? Really? Personally I love challenges, and the possibilities they bring to the table. Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.

I'm trying to figure out what there is to love with the challenges. Besides some of the items from the turn-ins (and I still say the Caromel weapon needs a quarterstaff version for the Acrobats), there is little in this pack to really praise. The XP is just plain sad and makes 3BC look like a great XP investment. There's no way to regain plat from the repair, scroll, pot, etc bills within the pack. The Epic quests contain no Epic tokens. A dragon is finally introduced to the game that drops no scales, plus there's an "Epic" dragon that drops no Flawless scales.

Additionally, we've had no Prestige classes added in quite a while. The beginning of the year the Devs were bragging about these challenge quests and the crafting. The ball seems to be dropped on both accounts now. And the lack of focus on the Prestige classes that people have been begging (and quite loudly) has been ignored.

If it weren't for the upgrade of items in already establish raids, this update would suck start a Harley.

[chance2000]

I do play on lam some and on the live servers. Thing is not to many people play on lam so not all bugs can be found while on there. I have been on lam so long that I have over 100,000 turbine points from Sr Pointsalot. Thankfully when they do the server wipe they do not wipe my points. Wish they would make some type of live server reward for being on lam to get more folks there to test stuff on lam. Without all of the people on the normal servers and all of the different party make ups on lam not all bugs can be found is my thought. I try to get my guildies to download it and try it they just won't. They say why with all the constant server wipes and no live server rewards from it. I have done 3 of the challenge quests only was able to complete 2 with just me and a hireling.

[red_cardinal]

At least you could've tossed us a bone - 1 tier PrE for some class :P.

[Khimberlhyte]

It did show me that we need more population on Lamannia. I have a few ideas for that.

So do I. How about releasing a new PrE for every 2,000 player hours on Lama?

[maddmatt70]

So do I. How about releasing a new PrE for every 2,000 player hours on Lama?

I actually think they should release a bunch of prestige enhancements at once in an update centered around a type like for example 7 spellcaster prestige enhancements or 9 melee ones or 8 racial ones. I share many people's view that the prestige enhancements are very fun and have enriched my experience in DDO. What is disconcerting is that there has been no sort of assurances that the developers are even working on these anymore.. They use to release 3 prestige enhancements every two updates or so, but it has now been 4 updates since the last one they have released so?

[oradafu]

It did show me that we need more population on Lamannia. I have a few ideas for that.

Thanks, Khimberlhyte. I missed this nugget in the post.

What I think this shows is that people aren't interested in the Challenge quests. Granted, Lammania hasn't had a large population before, but this is by far the worst I've seen the population of Lammania since I started visiting. And I think that's a bit of proof on how off the mark the development of the current content vs the wants/needs of the player base.

[Bladedge]

For now on--well, since 10, every update is it's own thing. it may be content and systems, only content, or whatever. There is no more piggybacking releases.

U13? Really? Personally I love challenges, and the possibilities they bring to the table. Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.


patang01- yes they are bugs. PREVIEW SERVER. The hue and cry after the great crafting debacle of 2011 was 'more preview earlier' from the community. So that is what we do. It will be buggy. Earlier does not mean we are done any sooner, it just means you see into the sausage making earlier.

Why a staggered unlock (Shade)?- controlling the info coming in. We are doing 4 props in 7 days on Lamma to be able to quickly change things. It is a new idea. We shut off things / controlled access so we can digest any info we get out of the server. Maybe it did or didn't work. It did show me that we need more population on Lamannia. I have a few ideas for that.

If only Turbine can actually finish the systems in place before starting a new one.

• 12 + different crafting/ turn in systems most unfinished, abandon or under used.
• PrE that go unfinished for years.
• Guild system that can use more work.
• Classes that can use updates, but some how Monks are updated every update.
• Epics which have drop of map.
• Cosmetics something which Turbine made a big deal hasn't seen nothing new.
• UI which displays to little info or does not know left from right.
• AC/DR usefulness unaddressed or push to the side I still remember the dev who said their are no problems with AC in a interview.