Release update 12 already so we can get closer to update 13's release

[Bladedge]

What I think this shows is that people aren't interested in the Challenge quests. Granted, Lammania hasn't had a large population before, but this is by far the worst I've seen the population of Lammania since I started visiting. And I think that's a bit of proof on how off the mark the development of the current content vs the wants/needs of the player base.

They should kept the challenges as limited time only content. Open one event for a 2 weeks closed it and open the next one a week or two later. Dress it up to mach the seasons or the special occasion.

[MartinusWyllt]

...
What I think this shows is that people aren't interested in the Challenge quests. Granted, Lammania hasn't had a large population before, but this is by far the worst I've seen the population of Lammania since I started visiting. And I think that's a bit of proof on how off the mark the development of the current content vs the wants/needs of the player base.

Awfully anecdotal observation upon which to base a conclusion, don't you think? The players motivated to download and play on test server client can't be expected to be a representative sample of all the players in any event. (unless you've been randomly sampling and recording lam population numbers before and after an announced change with a number of samples sufficient to have some statistical power, of course, that wouldn't be anecdotal at all)

Speaking only for myself I consider running the test client something of a chore...so it would be doing volunteer work...and I have plenty of volunteer opportunities around me as it is. Just about every volunteer gig, though, confers some kind of benefit be it free pizza or at least a line item you'd want on a resume.

There's no incentive for the "average" player to download, install and run on the test server. Maybe reward finding and reporting (accurately, completely and reproducibly) bugs in some fashion.

[oradafu]

Awfully anecdotal observation upon which to base a conclusion, don't you think?

Guilty as charged. But do you hear alot of excitement from the player base about the Challenges? No. The excitement is about the changes to the raids. Compare this to the excitement about crafting for example. Even when the crafting wasn't what people wanted, it still had a lot of people excited. I'm just not seeing it with the Challenges.

As Bladedge stated, I can see the Challenges working if they were available for a limited time. But as regular quests...stinky-poo.

[Khimberlhyte]

Guilty as charged. But do you hear alot of excitement from the player base about the Challenges? No. The excitement is about the changes to the raids. Compare this to the excitement about crafting for example. Even when the crafting wasn't what people wanted, it still had a lot of people excited. I'm just not seeing it with the Challenges.

As Bladedge stated, I can see the Challenges working if they were available for a limited time. But as regular quests...stinky-poo.

I haven't updated Lama in a few weeks, but so far, I have no opinion on the challenges. I'll try them, and if I enjoy them, will likely run them. If they drop common ingredients that can be turned into good gear, all the better (note- I know little or nothing about the reward mechanics). I'd much rather do one run each on 20 different quests for enough ingredients to make a nice item, especially when the alternative loot mechanic is something like Sub farming for a day to get 15 Garamol kills in the mere hopes of getting something other than vendor junk.

[Invalid_50]

U13? Really? Personally I love challenges, and the possibilities they bring to the table. Why only have one game style in an MMO? That is really what we are starting to explore. Sure we will still do raids, dungeons and all that, but I expect that we will do a challenge type here or there...giving us the ability to explore other game design ideas. That is what we are...game designers. Why not an RTS in DDO? Or a puzzle game? Or well, pick a favorite genre...Endless possibilities here.

You're wasting your breath with some in this crowd. The type that when they were 2 years old kept trying to shove the square block into the circle hole in their little red and blue "match the shapes" ball. They cried and cried when it didn't fit until their parents shaved off the corners of the square so it would fit into the circle hole to give them a precious moment or two without the whining.

D&D has NEVER been about 12 people standing around beating on a monster for 2 hours (at least not in good games) the way they do in mmos. Not PnP, not in any of the old TSR pc games, and certainly not in the first rendition of this game. It's always been about endless possibilities, questing, thinking, socializing, and yes sometimes fighting.

This is why pandering to power gamers is a lost cause. They are raiding raiders who like to raid. They are only happy when you make content specifically for their particular palate, even if it doesn't mesh with the overall theme of the game; and they will eat through whatever you can design FAST.

I don't quite get why they are so determined to change this game into one of the many other mmo's that are already out there and seem so much more to their liking.

Unfortunately, you guys have listened to them a heck of a lot more often than you should have, the result is that you have lost much of what this game once was.

Just make a new low magic server, reduce mob hit points by about 1000%, make a 1d6+1 sword mean somthing again, get rid of min max by having random rolls (like they used to have for D&D games), nuke the shroud and all its op items.

do that, and we'll call it even.

[oradafu]

You're wasting your breath with some in this crowd.

I personally don't mind new types of quests, but the changes lately in the game heavily tilt to caster only groups. Additional Fort only effected melees, when melees weren't the ones solo-stomping raids and epics. Even these new "challenges" are heavily tilted to casters.

However, the biggest complaints about the quests haven't been their design, but what is lacking: XP, chests, renown, etc. Much like the problem with running the Shroud above Normal (until Update 12 corrects it), there's too much risk with little to (in the case with the challenge quests) no reward.

Additionally, it seems to be across the board from the players perspective that Prestige classes should be a priority. This will be the second release with no Prestige class (no Battle Engineer I doesn't count since it was part of the whole Artificer class release). With the Devs changing aspects of the game and rebalancing the game, they are doing it against half delivered prestiges. For example, the Devs claim that Rogues are balanced DPS-wise, but they are balancing it against the Assassin III class while Acrobat II and Mechanic II are completely incomplete and inferior. That's just one of several examples because we could looks at PMs vs AMs or the Bard Prestige classes or Ninja Spy vs Shintao or etc.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

My view on this is pretty simple. If I wanted to play a RTS there are some GREAT RTS to choose from. Why would I play DDO for the little bit they might dabble in RTS game design?

This is just like PvP. Why in the world would I play DDO to pvp? There are some great pvp focused games out there. Why would I play DDO to pvp when it is a sideshow mechanic?

Basically the reason why games do not have lots of different pieces of different genres in them as fully functional and desirable elements is because the developers do not have the time to fully do everything to really appeal to each specific genre's fans. Best case is it's a fun little diversion in the game that you might do once in a blue moon. Worst case the game developers try to tie it into the rest of the game in a manner that you feel penalized for not persuing their latest sideshow in the rest of the game or it effects you even without doing it (like the often hated pvp balance passes done in some games that effect pve also).

But that is you. Maybe I want to play a simple RTS/Tower defense with my MMO dude, for 15 minutes instead of grinding another quest. Break up the treadmill a little bit?
I can point to many sandbox games that have multiple play styles going on, and you can go do those things...or not. Building a WORLD, not a linear experience. Not everything has to be for everyone.

Your second point is valid, and I agree. Challenges should not be forced on the critical path...other than maybe in some sort of New Player experience way. (I feel that crafting should also be added to the NPE also--and any other system we make going forward. )

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

Hmm the answer to this is more complicated. I would compare the challenges to crafting. What would you say is more of a worthy effort to put crafting into the game or to put challenges into the game? I would argue that crafting was more important because although it is not essential to playing a pve like this it has become associated with this genre of MMOs. Crafting has become a part of this genre of MMO's brand and by not having crafting in DDO was arguable failing in one aspect of its brand. The challenge system does not fall in that same category.

As Cyr argues you can not have it all in one game so why divert resources to Challenges, something which is not associated with this genre of MMO's brand. Obviously the old Smuggler's Cove was very popular which probably helped spawn the challenge concept, but why was that?

In pnp there are similiar RTS type experiences for e.g. arena fights, puzzles, riddles, etc., but they are tied into the overall story/character development/role playing so what about the challenge system really fits that mold?

Maybe every MMO should have challenges? My old sig was something about daring to do things bravely...and maybe failing, but the brave man tries anyway. DDO Devs are not followers. We do not want to be 'established MMO design' followers. Trust me, in 12 months every other major MMO will steal challenges in some shape or form.

As you suggest, do you really want us to plop one of these in the middle of a story arch? The rage would be amazing, and I can point out a 1000 games that a shift like that in playstyle in a story line can kill the game. Off to the side as an option is the better approach.

[oradafu]

Maybe every MMO should have challenges? My old sig was something about daring to do things bravely...and maybe failing, but the brave man tries anyway. DDO Devs are not followers. We do not want to be 'established MMO design' followers. Trust me, in 12 months every other major MMO will steal challenges in some shape or form.

As you suggest, do you really want us to plop one of these in the middle of a story arch? The rage would be amazing, and I can point out a 1000 games that a shift like that in playstyle in a story line can kill the game. Off to the side as an option is the better approach.

I'll take your second point first, do we want these challenge quests plopped into the middle of storylines? Probably not. However, there's an alternative way of introducing them and they are available in two packs already: Delera and Sentinel. Both have a quest or four that can be done without messing with the storyline. In fact, Deleras additional quests have nothing to do with the storyline as far as I can tell, just location of the quests.

Now to the first point. I can think of one Raid that players made a challenge for themselves when doing it. The challenge wasn't to beat everything that spawns, that apparently supporters of the Challenge quests claim that they want to avoid (yet all the challenges involve beating down everything in sight). The "challenge" that the players developed was intentionally preventing massive spawns of mobs while achieving the raid's goals. Instead of working with the way the players found a new way to challenge themselves in the raid, the Devs squashed it. That raid was HoX.

To a lesser degree, you could even say that Big Top was another thing that players made their own "challenge" with the quest. Instead of making the end fight tougher by introducing maybe new spawns (maybe multiple succubi) or something else within the tent, the Devs just put up invisible walls making the quest another beatdown everything in the players path.

So claims of moving away from straight beatdown quests sound hollow to me.

[mystafyi]

Trust me, in 12 months every other major MMO will steal challenges in some shape or form.

I doubt this very much. These 'Challenges' are like a publisher that ran out of novels, so tosses together a bunch of short stories in the vain hope it will generate revenue with very little effort.
In fact I doubt very much your F2P model is working. I know if it was, turbine would be posting numbers and bragging, but that ended 1st quarter of 2010 after the first surge.

I can point out a 1000 games that a shift like that in playstyle in a story line can kill the game.

Ive read the blog where ya'll said you are going to include 'challenge' type content in new updates. As you said, shift in playstyle can kill the game

[Symar-FangofLloth]

As you suggest, do you really want us to plop one of these in the middle of a story arch? The rage would be amazing, and I can point out a 1000 games that a shift like that in playstyle in a story line can kill the game. Off to the side as an option is the better approach.

Like Skirmishes in the Epic storyline in LotRO? Heh...

[mystafyi]

Like Skirmishes in the Epic storyline in LotRO? Heh...

Shhhhhh or sapience will come over here and punish you!

[weewoo0]

Maybe every MMO should have challenges? My old sig was something about daring to do things bravely...and maybe failing, but the brave man tries anyway. DDO Devs are not followers. We do not want to be 'established MMO design' followers. Trust me, in 12 months every other major MMO will steal challenges in some shape or form.

As you suggest, do you really want us to plop one of these in the middle of a story arch? The rage would be amazing, and I can point out a 1000 games that a shift like that in playstyle in a story line can kill the game. Off to the side as an option is the better approach.

please define stealing challenges? ><
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Challenge_Mission

and in reality i'd rather see the dev team focus on finishing one of the long standing story-lines. where the heck is the draco-lich from the truthful one series btw? isn't that one of the oldest storylines in ddo?

[weewoo0]

I doubt this very much. These 'Challenges' are like a publisher that ran out of novels, so tosses together a bunch of short stories in the vain hope it will generate revenue with very little effort.

not just that but its been in a different MMO (more european/korea based from what i saw while i played there) since 2005. sooo yea >> its not something thats going to spread too far since it hasn't done so already.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

I doubt this very much. These 'Challenges' are like a publisher that ran out of novels, so tosses together a bunch of short stories in the vain hope it will generate revenue with very little effort.
In fact I doubt very much your F2P model is working. I know if it was, turbine would be posting numbers and bragging, but that ended 1st quarter of 2010 after the first surge.


Ive read the blog where ya'll said you are going to include 'challenge' type content in new updates. As you said, shift in playstyle can kill the game

I completely disagree on both counts. As for posting numbers...not gonna happen.
Adding different play styles that are optional won't kill the game. Is challenges a deal breaker for you? Really?

Guild Wars-Same idea, they did not take it far enough. Common MMO mechanics in their challenges. Defend the hill, kill the foozles, nothing you can't find on landscape or instances-even in some of our games.

The 'other' game- no comment. not my game. I really pay little attention to the Hobbits. Kobolds are far better dancers, and very busy ones. All I know is they had a good expansion and they are somewhere between the Shire and Mordor.

Oradafu - Good point, and one I have argued at more than one point in my career. Sometimes devs should embrace what players have 'found'. Best example ever- rocket jumping in Quake. TF2 it is a Feature. But part of what you are saying is a 'challenge'...was an exploit. Sure, that idea for a raid play style would work for a new raid, but as it stood with the already created raid, the halo effects from a design standpoint to retrofit to the new play style would be...well, huge...and horribly broken. Hence the fix...or in your opinion, the squashing.

[sephiroth1084]

But that is you. Maybe I want to play a simple RTS/Tower defense with my MMO dude, for 15 minutes instead of grinding another quest. Break up the treadmill a little bit?
I can point to many sandbox games that have multiple play styles going on, and you can go do those things...or not. Building a WORLD, not a linear experience. Not everything has to be for everyone.

I agree, and having a variety of features available is a good thing.

It's part of the reason that I have never argued for getting rid of PvP, and the challenges seem like they fit into the continuum of quests and explorers.

Your second point is valid, and I agree. Challenges should not be forced on the critical path...other than maybe in some sort of New Player experience way. (I feel that crafting should also be added to the NPE also--and any other system we make going forward. )

As you suggest, do you really want us to plop one of these in the middle of a story arch? The rage would be amazing, and I can point out a 1000 games that a shift like that in playstyle in a story line can kill the game. Off to the side as an option is the better approach.

While true, they should tie into the rest of the game in some way. A big issue I have with the challenges at high level is that they generate epic items, but don't drop epic tokens. They serve as an alternative to running the epic quests we've had for close to 2 years, but don't continue to support that system. Yeah, you can generate comparable epic equipment to the existing epic quests, but then you have to go run those quests you've been running for months and months another 40-100 times to complete the stuff you're gaining in the quasi-epic quests that Challenges are.

Put some chests into these things with random loot.
Put in an epic chest at the end that drops an epic token, or epic token fragments, perhaps increasing the number based on the star rating you completed the challenge with, or have the monsters in the epic-caliber challenges drop treasure bags with token fragments in them at a higher rate than in traditional epics to compensate for there not being an epic chest at the end.

[sephiroth1084]

Now to the first point. I can think of one Raid that players made a challenge for themselves when doing it. The challenge wasn't to beat everything that spawns, that apparently supporters of the Challenge quests claim that they want to avoid (yet all the challenges involve beating down everything in sight). The "challenge" that the players developed was intentionally preventing massive spawns of mobs while achieving the raid's goals. Instead of working with the way the players found a new way to challenge themselves in the raid, the Devs squashed it. That raid was HoX.

To a lesser degree, you could even say that Big Top was another thing that players made their own "challenge" with the quest. Instead of making the end fight tougher by introducing maybe new spawns (maybe multiple succubi) or something else within the tent, the Devs just put up invisible walls making the quest another beatdown everything in the players path.

So claims of moving away from straight beatdown quests sound hollow to me.

I want more content that doesn't involve killing everything in sight. I want more quests that allow players to use intelligent solutions to bypass fights and be rewarded for that.

I don't want cheese.

The Hound strategy that generated a completion without spawning monsters was cheesy to an incredible degree. I know, because I accompanied the fine, fine fellow who discovered/created the strategy. While I felt that he had accomplished something worthwhile, and was rather impressed with the degree of dedication and experimentation he had done, I still felt that the method was incredibly boring, and obviously not WAI.

Big Top was...I don't know. I like being able to bypass stuff by using the environment intelligently, but the degree to which you could bypass the quest felt cheesy as hell. You shouldn't be able to skip and entire quest by making 2 jumps and getting an Invisibility.

Neither of those were challenging. Discovering the strategy initially was challenging for Hound, but the point of both strategies was to remove as much challenge as possible from the respective quests.

The ball method in DQ is a semi-intelligent solution to a problem, and solves the quest in a slightly different way that removes much of the challenge, but not all of it, introduces some new challenges (mostly insofar as lag can swing the raid more violently).

Using corpses and treasure bags to way down the pressure plates in Xorian Cypher in order to solo the quest is an intelligent solution that I like. Using stealth to bypass fights is interesting.

[oradafu]

Oradafu - Good point, and one I have argued at more than one point in my career. Sometimes devs should embrace what players have 'found'. Best example ever- rocket jumping in Quake. TF2 it is a Feature. But part of what you are saying is a 'challenge'...was an exploit. Sure, that idea for a raid play style would work for a new raid, but as it stood with the already created raid, the halo effects from a design standpoint to retrofit to the new play style would be...well, huge...and horribly broken. Hence the fix...or in your opinion, the squashing.

Big Top was...I don't know. I like being able to bypass stuff by using the environment intelligently, but the degree to which you could bypass the quest felt cheesy as hell. You shouldn't be able to skip and entire quest by making 2 jumps and getting an Invisibility.

I won't argue about HoX because I can see the argument either way.

However, no one can convince me that Big Top was an exploit. First, there was no objective (mandatory or optional) to open the gates. Second, the first jump had a little hill that you had to hit just right to get on the wall. Even on an Acrobat with 80 Jump, there was no way of getting on the wall without timing your jump on that small hill. Third, Partycrashers has exactly the same type of jump that bypasses a good portion of the quest and leads to a shrine.

As I said before, if the jump was really a problem, the Devs should have added a "challenge" to the jumpers. For every gate not open, additional waves of mobs spawning in the end fight could have been a solution. Another would be to have a mob with a knockback effect spawn at the wall to knock players off the wall. As cheesy as the shortcut was for the quest, the way the Devs dealt with it was even cheesier.

[LeLoric]

While I am sure there is plenty more I would like to see in update 12 than what we have seen already. I am not ready to just say ok lets move on to U13 already. There are some pretty useful items to get out of the challenges. I would still love to see a few tweaks to the challenge system including some way to get tokens out of the epic runs so I don't have to go back to house p for another 4 months to slot em after I get the items made.

[oradafu]

While I am sure there is plenty more I would like to see in update 12 than what we have seen already. I am not ready to just say ok lets move on to U13 already. There are some pretty useful items to get out of the challenges. I would still love to see a few tweaks to the challenge system including some way to get tokens out of the epic runs so I don't have to go back to house p for another 4 months to slot em after I get the items made.

I suggested elsewhere for the Epic ingredients to provide Epic Tokens as a turn-in option. The only major problem with this idea would be that the Epic Challenges could be farmed like a regular quest, unlike regular Epics.