Ranger Hate

[Wrendd]

Rangers life would be so much simpler if the melees would carry some ranged weapon, specially tanks.. so they could agro mosnters from distance and let ranger start his job earlier without having to worry agro. If everyone would just take those few shots before entering melee mobs would be often lot worse shape and fight would be over faster from the point enemy has chance to attack.

[color = "red"] and when in doorway.. this often happens that i look that party is blocking it nicely so i shoot the enemy.. does the melee force block the door while i shoot and enemy runs toward? nope, they rush to middle of room and leave way open to me.. [/color]

or the times when enemys rangeds shoot me standing still while one melee enemy chacing me.. which do they go.. to melee that is no harm to me and keeps running after me.. leaving those standing shooting enemy archers free to keep shooting me and making it risky to stop for melee mob also to start hit me.

webs and ottos disco balls are great btw.

Part of that may be a lack of communication. I konw that I would be more than happy to remain in the doorway and let the rangers go at it (and the caster) if they tell me that they want to do that. Most of the time that we run into the middle is to get to the casters that have the AoEs and to try and get every mob in the room focused on us. (the melees, of which I am one).

I think that a lot of the problem (on both sides) is a lack of communication. The people that like to kite assume that the party will be better off if they do so. The people that prefer to melee think that the party is better off when they have aggro. Both methods can work. But neither will work when part of the group is trying to kite and the rest of the group is trying to stand still and fight.

[Pfold]

The truth is there are very few people that play/build AA's correctly per server, maybe a dozen or so and I'm being real conservative.

As far as rangers having a hard time getting into quests or epics, well, it's probably not because it's a ranger but rather the player. I generally don't have a problem getting my rangers into raids or epics. ymmv /shrug

To the OP, if you're running with barbs that are critting for 300 (I hope not at 20) then they are gimp. The comparison is trivial at best but seriously is comical. You're really saying, "Hey, I'm better than this terrible [melee class]". Congratulations.

I sincerely doubt that you have run any epics. Try pulling 2-3 mobs and let the rest of the party advance. One word there....DING! Try pulling just one, DING!

Maybe you should consider that AA's playing a quest as though they are soloing is annoying to the people that want to play as a group. Maybe you should be aiming at things that don't chase after you while you're in a group (ala casters, ranged characters).

You should also consider that the kill count truly is not a benchmark. 3/4 of my rangers are tempest and I could just sit there and 'bleed' the numbers by sniping targets that are slivered. Whoopty doo.

Seriously, I love these threads about ranger hate coming from AA's.

[gloopygloop]

Rangers life would be so much simpler if the melees would carry some ranged weapon, specially tanks.. so they could agro mosnters from distance and let ranger start his job earlier without having to worry agro.

First rule of DDO: If you aggro it, it belongs to you. Hopefully, the rest of the party will help you kill it, but you aggroed the monster, so make sure you can handle it.

Just like all the Cthulhu cultists will tell you, never call up something you can't put down.

[-Nismu-]

First rule of DDO: If you aggro it, it belongs to you. Hopefully, the rest of the party will help you kill it, but you aggroed the monster, so make sure you can handle it.

Just like all the Cthulhu cultists will tell you, never call up something you can't put down.

well it rarely is problem to me.. But parties seem to cry even though i manage to get out from situation without getting a scratch.

[Ausdoerrt]

The ONLY time you should kite a mob with your bow is if it's needed (holding agro) etc. An actual condoned and needed kite is situational.

Quite. I remember seeing two ranged types kiting the final boss back and forth in Tempest Spine as effectively, if not better than, a single tank.

Otherwise, unless you're the only person left alive in a group, or you're kiting mobs back and forth through an AoE spell, it's a crime. Ranged types should stick to pulling mobs in small groups, and taking out casters, since that's what they're best at. Pull the mobs to melees, and if they know what they're doing or you warned them ahead of time, they'll intimidate the mobs to pull them off you.

Maybe you should consider that AA's playing a quest as though they are soloing is annoying to the people that want to play as a group.

This, if you're in a group, play like you're in a group. And it's true for any class, be it zerging barbarians, or mages who think they can solo elite melee mobs at level. Artis are actually becoming the new worst offenders, as between doggies, turrets and kiting, a plenty of people decide it's OK to run off on their own - and be a liability to the party 90% of the time.

well it rarely is problem to me.. But parties seem to cry even though i manage to get out from situation without getting a scratch.

Well, it's still mighty annoying. Remember that you're in a pug, and people don't know you or what to expect. A smart ranger will die last, the opposite of smart needs to be nursed, and there's really no way to tell which one you are until it's too late. Besides, kiting is rarely beneficial - sure you might not die, but take extra few minutes to kill your mobs, and people ain't got all day. Plus, it's usually better to keep a party together.

[gloopygloop]

well it rarely is problem to me.. But parties seem to cry even though i manage to get out from situation without getting a scratch.

That's a different issue. How much time, effort and resources are used in a fight where you're kiting compared to a fight where you pew pew the enemies until they reach you and then whip out a pair of swords (or maybe even just keep pew pewing while you stand still if you have the new Point Blank Shot)?

I will mention again, though, that a Ranger with a Paralyzing bow from level 10 to 16ish is just about the most wonderful companion that you could hope to have in a party. It's easier to fight enemies that don't fight back and Improved Precice Shot means there are a whole lot of enemies not fighting back.


Summary: things that make people's lives easier make parties happy. Things that make people's lives harder make parties unhappy - even if you personally happen to take less damage in the process.

[-Nismu-]

guess it takes few seconds more to kill the monster but then again without taking resources (unless our melees are following enemy melee instead going after enemy ranged) if i were to stop i would propably get hit few times and with monsters hitting 30ish damage that would mean cure or two .

One of the problems is that melee shouldnt run and swing, if they would just stand in place it would be easier to circle them while shooting and they would have easier time hitting also. when they run after mobt you just make a train.

and i agree that paralysers are awesome. Also greatly helps on lining the group of mobs

[gloopygloop]

One of the problems is that melee shouldnt run and swing, if they would just stand in place it would be easier to circle them while shooting and they would have easier time hitting also. when they run after mobt you just make a train.

The problem with that is that melees who stand still when enemies are around end up as dead melees *really* fast. Enemy spellcasters have trained our melee folks to sprint toward the enemy in order to kill them as quickly as possible. Also, melee who run toward the enemy can engage the enemy in a way that keeps *them* from being hit in melee combat as well. I don't take nearly as much damage in quests on my melee characters as I used to because I learned how to fight one mob while dancing around him so that he hit me less often and so that his buddies end up chasing me around him instead of surrounding me and beating on m

I will stand still and let the enemy pound on me in some VERY specific situations. Shroud parts 4 and 5 come to mind as well as some other quests where I know that I'm only there to be a meat shield for the person who is doing the real damage (the Marut fight in VoN or several doorway fights in Deleras if there is a firewall throwing caster in the party).

But what you're asking me to do is stand still and let enemies beat on me so that you can stand still and shoot without letting the enemies beat on you. Instead of that, why not shoot the enemies, knowing that they will come after you and then stand still for a couple of seconds once the melee types get done with their enemies so that they can take aggro from you or make teh 2-3 swings needed for them to kill that enemy. You have Cure spells that you can use on yourself. Take a couple of hits for the team just like you're asking the melee types to do for you.

[anto_capone]

Don't kite, shoot them in tha face!

[-Nismu-]

But what you're asking me to do is stand still and let enemies beat on me so that you can stand still and shoot without letting the enemies beat on you.

but if the problem is that monsters are after me then how can they be beating you? Or if there are more mosnters and some on you then why would you be running after ranger ? Or if there is casters alive why not attack them before the currently harmless melees? once those extras are done then it propably is safe for ranger to stop for few swings too.

Usually the first agro thing happens to me when i try get casters down before they get in casting range.. if one of melee melee would ahve some distance attack they could use they could take agro off melee mobs and others with one shot. then ranger would be free to take down the caster and party would benefit his specialty too and melees could melee without having to run after some idiot jumping around.

but that tactics.. usually work better in static parties and in content that needs more tactic than wm1.

[Ebuddy]

My main is an AA, and it's taken a long time to learn how to play her even fairly well. I've boiled it down to this (group play):

1. You only kite under 2 conditions - The leader asks you to as part of a larger strategy or All Amrath has broken loose and the group needs time to rez/recover.

2. Even with marginal melee DPS (though even an AA should be pretty good), a twf ranger with just a little more STR and CON can most certainly be effective. This is especially true with the changes to vorpal, banishing, etc. Now I can hit for an additional 100/150 instead of waiting for a slaying arrow and/or lightning strike to proc.

3. Heal yourself if the healers are otherwise occupied. Heal others also (good top-off).

4. When MS is ready, line 'em up (once aggro is established on the melee) and watch 'em fall.

[Beer_Dude]

Rangers life would be so much simpler if the melees would carry some ranged weapon, specially tanks.. so they could agro mosnters from distance and let ranger start his job earlier without having to worry agro. If everyone would just take those few shots before entering melee mobs would be often lot worse shape and fight would be over faster from the point enemy has chance to attack.

and when in doorway.. this often happens that i look that party is blocking it nicely so i shoot the enemy.. does the melee force block the door while i shoot and enemy runs toward? nope, they rush to middle of room and leave way open to me..

or the times when enemys rangeds shoot me standing still while one melee enemy chacing me.. which do they go.. to melee that is no harm to me and keeps running after me.. leaving those standing shooting enemy archers free to keep shooting me and making it risky to stop for melee mob also to start hit me.

webs and ottos disco balls are great btw.

I do this when I'm on my ranger if there's an AA in the party. I'll Plink the entire group of mobs before the AA can. Then I run towards the mobs and bust out the khopshes. Then me and the other melees pound away on the group of mobs. The AA can only peel one of the mobs off of me and I always have enough DPS and HP to weather the mobs. Once they're dead I heal on the way to the next group of mobs rinse and repeat. It works out fine and ****es of the AA at the same time.

[transtemporal]

I don't know if it's Ranger hate per se. Ambivalence might be closer to the mark.

They got nerfed pretty hard when Tempest and TWF was changed and they haven't really recovered yet. The class needs a bit of love probably.

Lord of Blades gives them a little relevance for pew pewing the pillars, but thats about it.

[ShadowFlash]

snip.....if they run foreward the mobs will run right past them as I will be pulling agro. If you stand next to me and swing away everything will cluster and your THF guy will hit everything a lot.....

Learn to play with a party as the tactics that are used in a party or solo are different. The same goes for wizards firewall, fighters are expected to fight in it... if you do everything is great. The melee swing away and the caster kites the mobs directly into the path of the melee in the wall.

^this

unfortunately tactics are not a major role in this game for the majority of people it seems. In a perfect world, the AA doesn't move...manyshot the crowd and DRAW them right into the grinning melees (and through the BB's and FW's). Yes, melees do a lot more sustained DPS, but why is it the ranger that is suppose to kite them FORWARD to the melees? I believe things would run a lot more effeciently if EVERYONE could appreciate each others strong points. Melees lead the charge? No reason there even needs to be a "charge". patience angry half-orc...rangers will serve you up all the kills you desire if you stand right in front of them and wait a few seconds.

TLR rangers are not the only ones who need to adapt to group play....they are just the scapegoat because ranged combat generates obnoxious hate...this can have advantages.

[NaturalHazard]

This is the direction they need to move towards with the Arcane Archer and DWS. They need to roll out pets for Rangers to compliment their poor ranged damage. This is especially important at the lower levels before you get Slayer Arrows.

.

But isnt it esp at the lower levels that archers shine? heck even with a tempest im pwning things with ranged but its when things start to get 1000's of hitpoints towards the later levels amarath for example that ranged falls behind even with 500 damage on a 20?

[NaturalHazard]

I do this when I'm on my ranger if there's an AA in the party. I'll Plink the entire group of mobs before the AA can. Then I run towards the mobs and bust out the khopshes. Then me and the other melees pound away on the group of mobs. The AA can only peel one of the mobs off of me and I always have enough DPS and HP to weather the mobs. Once they're dead I heal on the way to the next group of mobs rinse and repeat. It works out fine and ****es of the AA at the same time.

I do this 2 on my tempest, but it doesnt always **** off the AA's they adapt and move around so they can make the most of their improved precise shot. A lot tell me its easyier to to line up multiple targets this way than kiting running backwards like a loon with a conga line chasing you.

[NaturalHazard]

Me, I blame this guy:

BUT BUT this guy actually pulled out 2 melee weapons at one time or another and used them!!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think an experienced player should only get agro on purpose.
And with all the ranged hate, it is very important for Rgrs to learn this.

Everyone needs to learn to play in a team. to at least some degree. And to be polite to some degree.
This usually means not kiting.

But mistakes happen. Or sometimes a person just wants to do something his way or what he thinks is a fun way.
So everyone should be tolerant.

In general, I think all new Ranged players should just take the attitude that they will "never" kite......ever.

But for the advanced Rgr....who has learned how not to annoy everyone else in the party...
Kiting can be a very valid tactic.

When the garbage hits the fan there is nothing quite like getting agro of everything in a room and running it around for awhile till the rest of the party gets things back under control.
But that should be a rare event.

For those with a static group, you can kite more often. And other players can learn to adapt and work with you......but whether fair or not.....never expect a PUG to adapt to you.

I think good melee players will learn to adapt though.
Intimidate for one thing.
Go find something else.
Pull out their own ranged weapon.
They will still hate you, but I think the good ones will just /sigh and adapt to it.
(actually....I tend to /cheer .....they usually get the idea.....eventually...lol)

I also tend to just move on to the next room.
If they wanted my help they would be kiting it away from me....I'm gona go on and seek some fun beating up something else......cya!


BTW....I see almost as many casters kiting as I do Rgrs. (althogh not as many since the spell pass....since they can actualy kill things now instead of just making them really mad.)


I predict though that we will see less Rgr hate shortly...
Cause all of those completionists are finally playing ranged toons..and hopefully learning something from it.

[NaturalHazard]

maybe more mobs should be given throwing weapons and brutal throw that they can switch to when it becomes obvious that they cant catch the pesky archer?

[kaboro]

Part of that may be a lack of communication. I konw that I would be more than happy to remain in the doorway and let the rangers go at it (and the caster) if they tell me that they want to do that. Most of the time that we run into the middle is to get to the casters that have the AoEs and to try and get every mob in the room focused on us. (the melees, of which I am one).

I think that a lot of the problem (on both sides) is a lack of communication. The people that like to kite assume that the party will be better off if they do so. The people that prefer to melee think that the party is better off when they have aggro. Both methods can work. But neither will work when part of the group is trying to kite and the rest of the group is trying to stand still and fight.

So dam true.
Please guys, just read this post and stop arguing for nothing.
This whole thread consists of people arguing over different things, lack of communication is obvious if you take the time to read through the posts.

After all is said and done though, as a solely ranger player, i have to admit that kiting in a group of strangers without proper communication in advance, is rather impolite. Not necessarily ineffective or damaging for the group...but impolite.