Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[gloopygloop]

The level 6 and up spells were designed with that barrier in mind when written, after all, so it'd actually bring the game closer to it's roots.

All spells in 3.0 and 3.5 were written with the metamagics not applying to high level spells. No Empower for level 9 spells. No Maximise for level 8 and 9 spells. Level 7 spells can't have Empower + Maximise on at the same time.

If you have Empower + Maximise + Quicken on, then you'd only be able to cast level 1 and level 2 spells.

[Scraap]

All spells in 3.0 and 3.5 were written with the metamagics not applying to high level spells. No Empower for level 9 spells. No Maximise for level 8 and 9 spells. Level 7 spells can't have Empower + Maximise on at the same time.

If you have Empower + Maximise + Quicken on, then you'd only be able to cast level 1 and level 2 spells.

I actually fully agree with that as well, and have stated as such way back http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=44. Of course, by the same token, that would over-inflate the utility of maximize for level 5 and below spells due to that rules departure.

[voodoogroves]

The systems are similar, but the scaling, etc. are way, way off.

I've had tanky-caster types in PNP, but truthfully very few using Reconstruct - just not the same environment. Plenty of CoDzilla types though. Regardless, melees are essentially irrelevant in late game PNP except when the DM spends the time and effort to ensure they are not. If you're playing open-book-whatever, casters don't just dominate PNP DPR game, they alter reality.

...

But, DDO is different. We can put limits on things, and that's goodness. The difficulty is that in order to truly challenge varying character abilities and allow for alternate strategies the best way to do that is to add variety to the challenges in the game from the DM (Turbine).

I still think i'd rather they did that in new content going forward than recycling old.

[fool101]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to read this entire thread yet, but I have a suggestion.

First, I am not too big a fan of nerfs, but if one was ever considered for PM, I would rather share my idea of how to do it. My main is a PM afterall. If this has been suggested earlier I apologize.

I say put a debuff on players after all uses of a AOE death spell. Something that say lasts 1 min and decreases the DC by 1 and decreases hp by 10 (not max hp, just current hp), and stacks until the timer ticks off. This would likely not influence non-epic content much unless a person is continuously wailing, and it would at least make epics like Last Stand mildly more interesting, but not much so.

[grodon9999]

I'd LOVE to see polymorph, shapechange, fly, and all that other stuff casters are supposed to have. More than a fair trade for self-healing an 600 HP.

[Recared]

I have not read all the posts, just the first pages, so i don't know if it has been proposed before, but i thought of the following with no changes to sp cost of aoe instakill spells, nor increase the cooldown or change the DCs:

Simply (in line with 3.5 rules) stablish a maximum number of casts for those spells per rest. For example: Wail of Banshee can be casted 10 times per rest. And of course it still costs the usual sp.
If some thought has to be put on "when to cast" my megaspell because i just can't spam it during all the quest, then imo everybody would have an important roll: 3 melees party with arcane, bard and divine and arcane, and then the arcane has an enormous contribution. And if the arcanes party all together they still can use wail through all the quest. But we don't get to a point where a single arcane outperforms a full balanced party without a such arcane.
We all work hard to make our characters the best they can be, and we measure our power in how they can perform "in the quests", not in a party. If we find another build is simply better in all situations while questing (aoe instakill spam + great single target dps (bosses) + selfheal) then we feel there is an important imbalance. That's what i understand from the op.

[Khurse]

Huh, I had no idea that quicken shouldn't work on higher level spells.
I like that idea.

[gloopygloop]

Huh, I had no idea that quicken shouldn't work on higher level spells.
I like that idea.

No metamagics of any kind should work on higher level spells according to PnP rules. And stacking metamagic won't even work on most lower level spells.

Empower: +1
Maximise: +2
Quicken: +4
Extend: +1
Total: +8
That means you can only use those metamagics together on 1st level spells.

And Heighten + any other metamagic will be entirely eliminated.

[voodoogroves]

No metamagics of any kind should work on higher level spells according to PnP rules. And stacking metamagic won't even work on most lower level spells.

Empower: +1
Maximise: +2
Quicken: +4
Extend: +1
Total: +8
That means you can only use those metamagics together on 1st level spells.

And Heighten + any other metamagic will be entirely eliminated.

This is pretty much incorrect. It is valid when you only consider just the SRD as there are no metamagic reduction possibilities there.

Use any of the other books and there are plenty of ways to work metamagics with little or no cost.

[voodoogroves]

Huh, I had no idea that quicken shouldn't work on higher level spells.
I like that idea.

That's incorrect. 3.5 also comes with a host of ways to reduce metamagics; some of them are more restrictive than others. You can absolutely quicken 9th level spells.

[Chai]

Whats sad is that when nerfs are requested we havent seem to have caught onto the fact that the end result will be just as extreme but on the opposite side of the spectrum than what we have now.

Just look at before, when casters were basically built for 40+ CC DC, or didnt get into groups. They had two options. Either be a mass hold bot for everyone else, or be a perching crit fishing scroll farmer.

Yes, I like it better nowdays. Overpowered? Debatable, however, what is not debatable is the number of options casters now have, and the fact that people are looney toons if they dont want them in their groups. Its no longer the "have a 40+ CC DC or GTF0" style hostage situation it used to be.

I still maintain that the biggest overpowering of arcane is self healing. The entire balance the original game gave them lies with the fact that they cannot just toss a scroll or a repair spell on themselves. They have to rely on other classes for that. This is the most overpowering thing about arcanes, but we just accepted it for what it was for the longest time, right up to and until arcane began dominating in DPS, which is what they should have been doing all along.

I feel the amount we get worked up about the two should be the other way around. Casters should have been topping DPS charts the entire time, and the minute they got self healing is when the gripes should have began, because thats when the lack of balance took place. Casters outing everyone elses DPS and insta-killing is normal for D&D, but having 600 HP and self healing at the same time is not.

[Emili]

...
I feel the amount we get worked up about the two should be the other way around. Casters should have been topping DPS charts the entire time, and the minute they got self healing is when the gripes should have began, because thats when the lack of balance took place. Casters outing everyone elses DPS and insta-killing is normal for D&D, but having 600 HP and self healing at the same time is not.

Matt made a suggesting not long ago to remove mana and sf pots in order to shove some air of dependencies back into group efforts. I added likewise maybe one should remove higher healing aspects ... scrolls off the readily available market.

It is not difficult to build a character which cover self-sufficient aspects via umd, and in a game where the prime obstacles are kill things, then even self-sufficiency matters little in group what matters is kill the boss and survive - the reasoning behind the barb/cleric marriage ... as such even if the arcane did not self-heal and sported two-thirds the hp toss a divine behind them and that is the cornerstone of your group.


Funny thing and everyone here actually made me think more about it...

Last night I run Ambyre thru abbot with Matt and company, she run the quest plenty of times before but for some reason, which I never bothered in the past, I decided last min to turn in her SF necklace for some armour for the nightshield clickie.

So's... run a couple more raids and then I decide well best get her SF necklace back, log onto her (she an AA btw) and realize opps I cheated and run her thru cursed crypt before via proxie (openned with another toon and brought her in there through groupping originally)... She was missing "tomb of forbidden" - not previously completed on her. (yes is one where you need at least two people to swap gears - why they do not let hirelings do this I'm clueless).

So I run into "forbidden" on elite - may as well grab the favour on her while am at it as never plan on comming back personally. So I clear to the first wet of switches, ask around in guild chat, channels etc... no bites so place up an LFM.

Now to show you how guilty I am (though do not like to admit it). I sat there for bout fifteen minutes when I get a Sorc apply ...cool pick him up without hesitation, then as we're running down the hall, seven others apply, a pally, a monk, a barb, two wizard and two fighters (not in that order). So guess who I take?

- The two wiz, the monk and the pally... I hate to say such but first thing cross my mind was - even though anyone can do this quest, I did not wish to have to baby-sit should something go awry for anyof them ... the arcane are self-sufficient especially in such environment, the monk most likely and the pally quite likely. Also key note is the arcane I could have let them loose and piked if I really wanted - Didn'r I kept ahead and pressed on ... I did have to res the sorc at one point when he was not paying attention and walked into a trap... and the pally bit off a little much at some point and I had to heal him thru my mana (as I forgot she out of scrolls)... but overall my goal was get in and get out.

- people speak of bias, fact is we're all bias, I'm bias towards friends am quick to join them, and when comes to the game I take names am aquainted with... then outside that I'd likely look at the class applying (where I do not know the name) and chances are I'll take a caster or divine over any other build to fill it out.

[haclya]

My monk can't one shot any in hard or epic 17-20 lvl uses robes

monks stunning fist is useless in epic.

Monks trip abilty is worst then normal trip.

Got lowest crits in game.

low hp class.


a wizard can one shot, mass hold self heal tank and do good melee damage and tank and crit very well many feats
to use and tweek. + pm = win

[voodoogroves]

Just going to add one other thought here, because folks are getting kinda scattered.

We're talking about the capabilities of what a somewhat power-gamery person can do in DDO. 45 ish DC on instakill is non-trivial.

There's talk of "making it more like PNP" which is great in an abject directional sense with no meat ... because if you've played D&D 3.5 with the same intense optimization focus the balance is far, far worse in favor of full casters.

Now I know when folks say "revert to PNP" they are first only talking about parts of the system and secondarily making far-reaching statments based on some personal assumptions about the content, what works, etc. Maybe that achieves what they want, maybe not. We're talking the play-to-win mindset here, not the play-what-I-want-for-flavor crowd, because those are fine anywhere. We're talking about "I go first, because I always do, cast all of my spells in a single round and obliterate the challenge before anyone else in the party can act".

"Make it like PNP" may be some sort of banner phrase, but from the PNP games I've played for years ruling on those concepts is time consuming and non-trivial. Do we really think a complete system change for magic is the right answer?


======================================
If there's only one problem to solve or one kind of challenge at the end game, the power gamers are going to gravitate towards that one thing.

- We can nerf it, and move the line. Then something else becomes "best" ... because something always is and the power gamers find it.
- Or we can have multiple and varied challenges. One model could excel at one, another could excel at the 2nd.

[Lissyl]

<snip>...with the same intense optimization focus.

And the real problem continues (and will continue) to raise its' ugly head.

[Viisari]

And the real problem continues (and will continue) to raise its' ugly head.

What problem? Optimizing characters and gearing them up is what's fun for me in this game.

And really now, do you seriously expect that people wouldn't optimize in an MMORPG?

[Khurse]

My monk can't one shot any in hard or epic 17-20 lvl uses robes

monks stunning fist is useless in epic.

Monks trip abilty is worst then normal trip.

Got lowest crits in game.

low hp class.


a wizard can one shot, mass hold self heal tank and do good melee damage and tank and crit very well many feats
to use and tweek. + pm = win

What's your point?

My monk's stunning fist works,his void strike IV works,his quivering palm works (though certainly not at 100%)
when he was light all his Jade stuff and Kukando worked as well.

If you want the stuff to work for a monk, build for DC's.