please remove harassing posts from PVP forums

[Phidius]

... (meant in jest and I hope it makes a few folks laugh, as we all like what we like.)

Not me - I hate that I like DDO as much as I do.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I agree, but it doesnt stop there. When other players who disagree with the X comment about a specific part of PVP are doing so due to the fact that they like "everything goes PVP", and not "cherrypicked abilities PVP", and this results in every single one of those who disagree being quoted and told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, this is the single largest reason why these PVP threads go nowhere fast.

Analyze the threads that were closed and witness the pattern based behavior. The minute someone disagrees with the suggestion and gives reasons, they are told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about. There are MANY threads in the PVP forum which fit this description.

i would ask that you further analyze these threads and im pretty sure you will see much of this behavior was caused not really because someone disagreed with another opinion BUT because someone disagreed in a trollish manner, sometimes innocently sometimes with the express intent of baiting op for nefarious reasons look at last thread the cube closed and you will see its one amonst many.

again i will agree this can go both ways but stating that these pvp threads go nowhere fast because pvpers tell others they are clueless over and over because they dont like it when people disagree with them is false, i would rather say this happens when someone disagrees in a troll like manner and THEN it goes downhill.

its only normal for a some OP to argue his cause in his own thread when someone posts against his views.

[Gkar]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

But wanting to change or remove PvP is something that belongs in the PvP forum. We have been told in the past that if we want posts read put them in the correct forum, don't dump them in general where most devs don't bother reading anything unless someone points the post out to them.

[KillEveryone]

/not signed

As much as you can come into any one of my threads and say that you dislike my idea for whatever reason, so should I be able to do the same. It works both ways.

I don't care to see any part of the PvE experience messed up because of a "balance" request for PvP. It can happen as you can see by other problems caused when something else gets fixed or an attempt to change or any new implementation.

Then there are cries for nerfs for certain things in PvP because someone can handle loosing and I'd rather see that gone.

[protokon]

I usually only speak up in PvP threads when there is a suggested rule-change that I disagree with. And, disagreement is not harassment - even if the OP may not see it that way. Perhaps greater focus could be used in how that disagreement is phrased. But, simply not sharing the OP's opinion, or not /signing a thread does not immediately mean harassment.


Should the real harassment be dealt with? Yes, and it usually is.
Should there be no discussion or dissent? No, opinions are valid even if they are not what the OP wanted to hear; provided they don't cross the line(s) already set by the Community Guidelines.

Memnir, I do completely understand that disagreement =/= harassment. what I am mostly referring to are the random, indirect insults and unnecessary comments that are only there to flame pvp or pvp-ers.

PVP exists in DDO. it is an extremely minute part of the game, but it is still there. If a topic is opened to discuss the removal of spells / abilities to help balance it, there is no grounds for comments about how pvp should die, be removed, how pvp-ers should stop whining, ect...

Cordovan, I also have a question about the guidelines. I understand that it is against the rules to re-open topics that have been closed, and it is apparent quite a few threads in here take directions not intended by the thread posters. If we wanted to continue discussing mechanics and changes in the lobster pit, specifically about a particular divine spell, are we allowed to do so?

[Chai]

i would ask that you further analyze these threads and im pretty sure you will see much of this behavior was caused not really because someone disagreed with another opinion BUT because someone disagreed in a trollish manner, sometimes innocently sometimes with the express intent of baiting op for nefarious reasons look at last thread the cube closed and you will see its one amonst many.

again i will agree this can go both ways but stating that these pvp threads go nowhere fast because pvpes tell others they are clueless over and over because dont like it when people disagree with them is false, i would rather say this happens when someone disagrees in a troll like manner and THEN it goes downhill.

its only normal for a some OP to argue his cause in his own thread when someone posts against his views.

So an OP is immune to trolling their own thread, eh? I disagree. I dont mind the OP bantering their stance. When everyone who disagrees with the OP is quoted by the OP and told they are clueless about PVP, this in my opinion is just as bad as someone barging in and saying they dont like PVP and it should be removed. Its promoting and enforcing the behavior that gets threads closed out in the first place.

Again, "trollish manner" is a matter of opinion and usually that label is slapped on someone who disagrees with you. How many people who agree with you do you slap the "troll" label onto?

I now count 29 different instances of people in PVP threads being told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about because they disagreed with a suggestion and gave reasons for disagreeing (not for saying they hate PVP in general, but they were specific) - all of those people are not trolls for disagreeing with the suggestion. Sorry, I disagree with you. This definition of "troll" people are pushing is basically slapped on those who disagree.

[jackabat]

Or, they spend that 2% of time working on getting more/better/faster/less buggy content out, and their PvE majority pay them faster/more/better. Businesses make money by catering to the majority, not the niche.

I think I'm just not following the "few players play pvp, so no dev time should be spent" argument. Yes, PVP's a niche. A niche amount of dev time seems appropriate. If niche players didn't matter we wouldn't have stealth missions, 0% arcane spell failure shields, trap making, etc.

I... disagree with you on free players still. But I guess that's wandering off topic.

[protokon]

So an OP is immune to trolling their own thread, eh? I disagree. I dont mind the OP bantering their stance. When everyone who disagrees with the OP is quoted by the OP and told they are clueless about PVP, this in my opinion is just as bad as someone barging in and saying they dont like PVP and it should be removed. Its promoting and enforcing the behavior that gets threads closed out in the first place.

Again, "trollish manner" is a matter of opinion and usually that label is slapped on someone who disagrees with you. How many people who agree with you do you slap the "troll" label onto?

I now count 29 different instances of people in PVP threads being told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about because they disagreed with a suggestion and gave reasons for disagreeing (not for saying they hate PVP in general, but they were specific) - all of those people are not trolls for disagreeing with the suggestion. Sorry, I disagree with you. This definition of "troll" people are pushing is basically slapped on those who disagree.

it's not about disagreeing chai. it's about disagreeing in a manner that's inappropriate and/or off topic to the suggestion.

there is no grounds to debate what is/isn't trolling here, that's up for the moderators to decide. harassing them by calling anyone who posts a suggestion a 'whiner' or a generic 'I hate pvp', 'don't spend any dev time on PVP,' is not disagreement - it is a comment not even related to the discussion and only meant to flame.

[SilkofDrasnia]

So an OP is immune to trolling their own thread, eh? I disagree.

Again, "trollish manner" is a matter of opinion and usually that label is slapped on someone who disagrees with you. How many people who agree with you do you slap the "troll" label onto?

I now count 29 different instances of people in PVP threads being told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about because they disagreed with a suggestion and gave reasons for disagreeing (not for saying they hate PVP in general, but they were specific) - all of those people are not trolls for disagreeing with the suggestion. Sorry, I disagree with you. This definition of "troll" people are pushing is basically slapped on those who disagree.

i never said anything of the like i just said its normal for an OP to try and push for something hes suggesting and to try and get people to his way of thinking that what debating is isnt it lol the OP must be polite just as any other poster must my apologies if i didnt make this clear.

as for trolling again you keep insisting trolling is label slapped on when someone disagrees with you, as such your showing me dont know what trolling is.

you may very well have found what you found but did you go futher did you not see the op was perhaps baited into an emotional response and isnt that what trolling is once someone has been trolled/flamed its easy to overlook the original troll and accuse the one reacting and isnt that a trolls whole point? see what i mean

[TheDearLeader]

If niche players didn't matter we wouldn't have stealth missions, 0% arcane spell failure shields, trap making, etc.

Touche.

[protokon]

you many very well have found what you found but did you go futher did you not see the op was perhaps baited into an emotional response and isnt that what trolling is once someone has been trolled/flamed its easy to overlook the original troll and accuse the one reacting and isnt that a trolls whole point? see what i mean

I thought the reference was appropriate

[Bladedge]

Ah this is a PvP section for the in game PvP.
All this time I thought this PvP section was a unmoderated part of the DDO forums where players bash each other , so I just avoided this section all together.

PvP as a add-on to a game that didn't have PvP that was part of the original build turns out to be way terrible and poorly implemented then a game that is built with and around PvP from the beginning.

[Lifespawn]

your last comment is the entire point of my post - there is a big difference between saying:

/not signed, i don't like the idea of development time spent tweaking PVP because it interferes with the development of other content

and:

/not signed, pvp should die and OP is a troll for posting anything about tweaking PVP

it's just ridiculous how disrespectful people get over something that supposedly people don't care about.

pvp can stay for people that like it as long as they don't change how PVE is played just to balance pvp once they start doing that the gloves are off.

[Habreno]

pvp can stay for people that like it as long as they don't change how PVE is played just to balance pvp once they start doing that the gloves are off.

And since PvP can be altered without altering PvE you sir are 100% correct. +1 to you.

[Chai]

as for trolling again you keep insisting trolling is label slapped on when someone disagrees with you, as such your showing me dont know what trolling is.

Again, how many people who agree with your stance do you slap the "troll" label onto?

And here you are, telling me I dont know what something is, simply because I disagree with you. This clearly fits the description of exactly what I was making my point about. No more responses needed, as clearly I am not convincing you, and theres no need for a 75 post debate on the semantics of "trolling" - but you have certainly convinced me that disagreement will certainly be countered by claims that "you dont know what ________is" - fill in the blank with whatever the current debate is about. This reinforces the exact point I was making. We should be able to have this discussion without having to go there. This is why we cant have nice things in PVP threads. Either side should be able to make their specific point without the other side telling them they dont know what they are talking about. Civility blvd is a two way street.

[Lifespawn]

I think I'm just not following the "few players play pvp, so no dev time should be spent" argument. Yes, PVP's a niche. A niche amount of dev time seems appropriate. If niche players didn't matter we wouldn't have stealth missions, 0% arcane spell failure shields, trap making, etc.

I... disagree with you on free players still. But I guess that's wandering off topic.

they don't care about niche builds my intimisorc that just got nerfed to hell and back proves that,140 shrouds to make guards 5 epic items ground out and traded dearly for all for that char to be useless at what it used to do.

[Chai]

it's not about disagreeing chai. it's about disagreeing in a manner that's inappropriate and/or off topic to the suggestion.

there is no grounds to debate what is/isn't trolling here, that's up for the moderators to decide. harassing them by calling anyone who posts a suggestion a 'whiner' or a generic 'I hate pvp', 'don't spend any dev time on PVP,' is not disagreement - it is a comment not even related to the discussion and only meant to flame.

It clearly is about disagreeing. There are many responses by people who want no holds barred PVP in many threads where people disagree with "nerf or remove X ability" OPs - who have been told they are clueless noobs who clearly dont understand. This reinforces the negative behavior, but those people are never labeled trolls, because they agree with the OPs stance.

How many times has someone complained about "trolling" by someone who agrees with their stance. Really?

I feel that these discussions can be had without those types of comments by both sides. They generally do not, but labeling people on one side trolls while everyone on the other side is just innocently bantering their stance is clearly incorrect.

[aggravated]

Not in the PvP forum you don't. And not over and over and over and over... that's considered harassment.

This has been addressed several times by the moderators - every time one of these threads pops up.

You won't win this argument, so you may as well just let PvP players have their ONE thread and let it go.

everyone is entitled to their opinion in this world. just because u stamp a PVP title on a thread doesn't mean nobody is allowed to express their negative feelings toward it. granted, one doesn't need to beat a dead horse over it, but still, we are allowed to say whether or not we like the idea or not. if turbine were to institute the rule of "if u dont agree, dont post" idea then they would only be hearing ONE side of the coin and then base decisions on only one side of the argument. i hope i dont need to explain why this is a bad idea.

i do agree with u however that the posts regarding

And not over and over and over and over... that's considered harassment.

there needs to be some respect on both sides when it comes to a forum discussion. this is all just my opinion of course. im neither for or against pvp.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Again, how many people who agree with your stance do you slap the "troll" label onto?

And here you are, telling me I dont know what something is, simply because I disagree with you. This clearly fits the description of exactly what I was making my point about. No more responses needed, as clearly I am not convincing you, and theres no need for a 75 post debate on the semantics of "trolling" - but you have certainly convinced me that disagreement will certainly be countered by claims that "you dont know what ________is" - fill in the blank with whatever the current debate is about. This reinforces the exact point I was making. We should be able to have this discussion without having to go there. This is why we cant have nice things in PVP threads. Either side should be able to make their specific point without the other side telling them they dont know what they are talking about. Civility blvd is a two way street.

again show me where i called you a troll i never did not once ! look it up and you will see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

or here are various examples http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...=forum%20troll

as you can see basicly a troll likes to bait and get emotional responses.

this will also be my last response to you as its clear you dont even want to "try" and see another person point of view unlike i have tried and done with you. you clearly are of the mindset that your always right and never wrong

also no one is saying there are trolls just on one side they are some on both but i havent seen you acknowledge this once.

reading your posts i could say you think pvpers are always in the wrong and as such theyre opinion has no value ever and the poor anti pvpers are always being picked on and called trolls and are always right

[fluffybunnywilson]

as for trolling again you keep insisting trolling is label slapped on when someone disagrees with you, as such your showing me dont know what trolling is.

Trolling more than just disagreeing with someone.


Unfortunately, just disagreeing with someone who wants a change in PvP is often enough to generate claims of trolling.