please remove harassing posts from PVP forums

[jackabat]

Forums aside, I would *hope* that Turbine has a way of collecting statistics on where their VIP/Premium customers spend their in-game time, and determine that only a small percentage (I'd guess less than 2%) spend more time in PvP situations than they do PvE.

Pretending your 2% is right, I don't think it's unreasonable for PVP players to want about 2% of dev time. 2%'s a lot different than 0%.

Free Players, and I mean *purely* Free Players, never a dime spent on the game, should not count. Why? Because they aren't the financial backing for this game being what it is. That's like a restaurant tailoring it's food tastes based upon the Bums who live in the alley behind the restaurant.

Free Players do contribute to the game. They fill up pugs, they put stuff on the auction house, they get their friends (who then spend money) to play with them. Presumably some die in the brawl pit too. Many eventually buy an adventure pack or monk class or something after months of play. I'm sure turbine would rather they be VIPs, but turbine isn't letting free players play out of charity.

[Yajerman01]

The part to this discussion that bothers me the most is that when a Player asks for something to be "Nerfed" or "Buffed" to suit PVP that reactions from PVE players that things should remain the same, for reasons that PVP balance should not be paramount over PVE balance, they are immediately displayed as "Trolls"

In the end PVP players and PVE players should get along, but having an opposing view point is not trolling, and people who dislike PVP but still form their opinions in an on topic way and are not insulting shouldn't be driven out of the PVP forums for simply not enjoying it.

thats what I do not get. If you are a person that does not like pvp, then most of those sentiments are already skewed at any improvment of pvp; moreover, people who do not like pvp already do not participate in its activity.

I am all for voiceing an opinion as to whether a form of implemntation should be adressesd. however,the rationale behind those opposed to PVP generalize any implementation as a server wide negative effect.

Turbine has the power to code and or improve aspects of PVP that do not effect PVE, they just opt not to.

The general consesus from all anti-pvpers is thusly:
1. It takes away from dev time for new content.
2. it will adversly effect pve.

My response to this is:
1. from what I know there are dev's dedicated to certain aspects of the game, i.e. PVP
2. I have yet to see a spell altered or taken away in the PVP arena that adversley effects PVE

Then usually the last recourse of the anti-pvpers is:
1. Well its my money and pvp is a waste
2. PVP has ruined other games

My response is:
1. Its my money to.
2. Everyone knows that DDO is about PVE, this is a side sink for people who cant quest all the time or intermittently enjoy bashing on another. This game has been around for 5+ years and will always be about PVE as its primary. The sky is falling mentality needs to go.


The logic behind anti-pvpers is about PVP ruining the game period.
the logic behind the pro-pvpers is generally about advancement or betterment of what little pvp there is.

This issue is not black and white, there is alot of grey in between, but what I generally see in the forums when someone post in the PVP section and they want to talk about a spell they are for or against, the anti-pvpers then respond, not because they want a spell or issue resolved, blocked, added, they chime in on the fact that it is PVP, period, and generally the above mentioned rationals come to play, guaranteed.

My point is, if you do not PVP, you dont liket PVP then I fail to understand why your opinning in the first place when most of the issues reviolve around the "act" of pvping.

[Chai]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

I think people need to be able to discuss the issue without having to quote everyone who disagrees with their suggestion and tell them they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about. PVP threads evolve into this more often than not. Telling the anti-PVP crowd they cant provide their feedback is rubbish. Telling the pro-PVP crowd to go somewhere else for their PVP experience is equally rubbish.

Trolling in this instance is being based on a matter of opinion. I dont approve of the disagreement = trolling claims that are made in feedback and suggestion threads.

[fluffybunnywilson]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

The part that confuses me about this post is that no one is preventing PvP fans from participating in the forums in any way.

If I went into the spellcasters forums and posted "I don't think that FvS should exist in DDO. Clerics are all of the primary divine casting class that DDO needs", I wouldn't be preventing FvS from playing the game or from participating in the forums in any way.

That would probably be an unpopular position to take, but I really don't understand how holding (and sharing) that opinion stops people from discussing Favored Souls in the section created to discuss the system.

"I don't like PvP and would like to see it removed from DDO" is just as valid a position as "I love PvP and I particularly enjoy aspects X, Y and Z in PvP". Can someone explain to me how holding *either* of those positions prevents anyone from discussing PvP in section created to discuss the system?

[flynnjsw]

My point is, if you do not PVP, you dont liket PVP then I fail to understand why your opinning in the first place when most of the issues reviolve around the "act" of pvping.

It does not matter WHY someone is stating their opinion. They have just as much right to their opinion, and just as much right to state it as you do.

[Postumus]

Note: Paying Customers =/= Forumites. These numbers are independent of one another.

Free Players, and I mean *purely* Free Players, never a dime spent on the game, should not count. Why? Because they aren't the financial backing for this game being what it is.

I couldn't agree more.

That's why the 'but if I don't post how much I hate it, then the devs will think I SUPPORT IT!" arguments are bunk.

I'm sure Turbine has a very good idea, much better than people speculating here, how many players spend $$, on what, and what they spend their time playing.

[toughguyjoe]

however,the rationale behind those opposed to PVP generalize any implementation as a server wide negative effect.

Turbine has the power to code and or improve aspects of PVP that do not effect PVE, they just opt not to.

The general consesus from all anti-pvpers is thusly:
1. It takes away from dev time for new content.
2. it will adversly effect pve.


Then usually the last recourse of the anti-pvpers is:
1. Well its my money and pvp is a waste
2. PVP has ruined other games



The logic behind anti-pvpers is about PVP ruining the game period.

I don't want to get into too large a debate on this, but your generalizations about anti-PVP players are as silly as Anti-PVP players making generalizations about PVP play, or its implementations.

We could quote each other for hours noting times players from both camps have acted wrongly, but the main fact here is that sometimes, just sometimes, players comment with well thought out opinions on why/how a PVP "nerf" or "Buf" may effect PVE or vice versa.

In that vein, Anti-PVP players do not deserve to have their mouths sewn shut simply because of their opinion.

[Yajerman01]

In that vein, Anti-PVP players do not deserve to have their mouths sewn shut simply because of their opinion.

In that vein, I do not disagree with you in having an opinion on something completely away from your own point of view. but just becasue you have the right to opine does nto mean you should just for the sake of doing so.

But then I am talking formalities because I do not jump into a sorcer post and give my opinion on a sorcer build/spells what have you, just because I can, I do not because it does not concern me.

[khaldan]

That's one of the main problems in DDO. When their proverbial butterfly flaps its wings(A small change to mechanics) then there is usually some sort of earthquake elsewhere(Major far reaching problems that require a hotfix.)

That is one of the main reasons PVE players don't want PVP changes implemented very often, or at all. When something is changed, key elements of the game(Recently, Red Fens. Yes I know it was not PVP related, but I'm speaking about change..) become unusable for some time

This is true, and a valid concern. The solution is to get more people to test new content on mournlands, or lammania, to find all of the far reaching bugs.

It seems that currently turbine beta testers only test the new content for bugs, not as much as possible to find any bugs. Hopefully this will get better with the new mournlands testers.

[Kalari]

As I said in the thread I put up about PVP and in many threads when I had petitioned for in game changes/ additions you have to deal with this stuff. For everyone who maybe in your corner you may have a ton more who are against it. Its the nature of the boards. If it gets to you maybe the thing your pushing for isnt worth it. When I want something for the game be it fluff, mechanics change or even pvp (which im still not convinced we need but trying to be open minded) I just dont go back and forth I let both sides speak their minds and get my point across.

Forum pvp is funny though if people spent half the time they did arguing back and forth with each other on why it is/isnt needed many more ideas could be put forth. I wish people would put more energy in suggestions to make the game more well rounded then bickering but meh what can ya do?


Edit and to sound like a broken record yet again. Back when I made threads on housing I heard all the same things pvp enthusiast heard and then some. Round one I fought hard going back and forth risking infractions because I though "oh these trolls are attacking me." Round two I wisened up no matter what anyone said all you can do is put forth an idea, people are going to hate on anything that they think takes away from what they find important in the game. Honestly the thread I put up had quite a few people in it saying things like "id pay to get pvp taken out of the game." And to be honest while unnecessary didnt hurt me one bit I looked shook my head and tried to respond to those taking the thread seriously. Thats what I think anyone seriously looking for changes should do.

[Chai]

If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP."

We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) These players should be allowed to discuss PvP in the section created to discuss the system.

I agree, but it doesnt stop there. When other players who disagree with the X comment about a specific part of PVP are doing so due to the fact that they like "everything goes PVP", and not "cherrypicked abilities PVP", and this results in every single one of those who disagree being quoted and told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about, this is the single largest reason why these PVP threads go nowhere fast.

Analyze the threads that were closed and witness the pattern based behavior. The minute someone disagrees with the suggestion and gives reasons, they are told they are clueless and dont know what they are talking about. There are MANY threads in the PVP forum which fit this description.

[Kamo]

I have the same right to express my dislike of PvP and request its removal as much as I expressed my dislike and requested the removal of the Offer Wall. Now PvP is not as bad as the offer wall as it does not threaten personal security, but I have every right to ask for its removal, as the Devs have every right to ignore my request as I am sure they will.

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

[flynnjsw]

. but just becasue you have the right to opine does nto mean you should just for the sake of doing so.


Why not?


But then I am talking formalities because I do not jump into a sorcer post and give my opinion on a sorcer build/spells what have you, just because I can, I do not because it does not concern me.

That is a personal choice. I chose not to as well, but I could if I wanted to. That is the point.

Comments in Red

[Gkar]

or make a sticky that says any anti-pvp comments in a legitimate post discussing it is considered trolling, since closing a few threads wasn't clear enough.

disagree with you is not trolling.

In the past the devs have been pretty clear in telling us that we need to say both if we like ideas, and if they don't, or they will take silence as support.

[MsEricka]

TL;DR

/not signed

You can't tell me not to state my opinions, just like I can't tell you not to state yours. It has nothing to do with "free speech" but rather equality.

[TheDearLeader]

Pretending your 2% is right, I don't think it's unreasonable for PVP players to want about 2% of dev time. 2%'s a lot different than 0%.

Or, they spend that 2% of time working on getting more/better/faster/less buggy content out, and their PvE majority pay them faster/more/better. Businesses make money by catering to the majority, not the niche.

Free Players do contribute to the game. They fill up pugs, they put stuff on the auction house, they get their friends (who then spend money) to play with them. Presumably some die in the brawl pit too. Many eventually buy an adventure pack or monk class or something after months of play. I'm sure turbine would rather they be VIPs, but turbine isn't letting free players play out of charity.

First, let me say there was a reason I stressed *completely Free to Play Players*. If they buy a Class/Content Pack/whatever with real life money (not ground-out TP), then they are now Premium, and no longer Free-To-Play. At that point where the transition occurs, be it even five dollars for the smallest point pack, is when Turbine should begin to at least consider a player's opinion.

To the rest: Free Players fill up Pugs - only to drop after taking 20 minutes of everyone's time to figure out they don't own the right content pack. They *do* put stuff on the Auction House - garbage that no one wants, and is unnecessary clutter. And they *do* bring friends to the game - but pulling a number out of thin air, I'd say less than a 10th of those friends actually start paying, if their original "referral" was also F2P.

[flynnjsw]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

So it's discrimination to voice an Anti-PvP opinion, but not to tell someone of a differing opinion that they can't post? You really might want to rethink that.

[fluffybunnywilson]

It is quite clear that the PVP THREAD is devoted soley for the furthuring of PVP in ddo, it is not to discriminate against it simply because you dislike it, and feel it should be removed. If you wish to voice your ANTI PVP opinion i recommend you do it in General discussion, not in this thread.

While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community.


Please do not tell people that they cannot voice their on-topic opinions in the DDO forums of their own choosing. People who dislike PvP have a right to participate in the community too.

[BruceTheHoon]

it really goes back to the old saying.

"if you have nothing nice to say, dont say anything at all".

Very nicely put.

[khaldan]

This thread has gone on long enough. Players should be allowed to discuss suggestions to improve PvP in this section of the forums, as long as they are following the forum guidelines. Players should not be replying with off-topic statements, including statements that are nothing more than essentially "I don't like PvP." Personal attacks and the like are also not allowed, of course.

I'm all for arguing against pvp, or arguing for it. The part in bold is what people really need to stop doing.

Quoting myself, because people seem to be missing something here. Stating that a change to pvp is bad because it would do XXX is a perfectly fine thing, and should be posted.

Posting personal attacks however, is not. If you take a look at some of the locked threads, posts that disagree with the original post aren't deleted post moderation. Posts that are personal attacks, or just saying 'I dont like pvp, so this shouldn't be changed' however, get deleted.