Receiving end of my first blacklisting.

[Deathdefy]

Loot drama. Elite Vault of Night 5, then Elite Vault of Night 6.

So, I join up for the at level elite VoN5/6 run on my main because, hey awesome XP! Plus, I still want a Sword of Shadows before undertaking any barb PLs, and would vaguely like a Helm of the Mronanon.

VoN 5 goes reasonably smoothly thanks to good leadership and a solid core of about 7-9 players who know exactly what they're doing. Was fun even! That said, one new wizard in particular was the first to die, died several more times, and generally didn't seem on the ball.

VoN 6 again was a reasonably smooth completion thanks to phat heals and reasonable dps despite a few people dying due to what I suspect are very low HP scores.

The only important thing to note is that I was designated to be on ice with said wizard and 2 others. We were told to send a tell to the person on our base who could cast resistances with our requests. I did so, "Hey, despite the fact I have a Ranger icon next to my name, I only have 6 levels, so I can only do dodgy 10 point resists - can I grab a resist fire please?" to the wizard and got back an inscrutable "okay me next". Someone eventually did cast a 30 point resist fire on me. But, I am far from certain it was the wiz. (This is not something I care about even slightly, just setting context).

There was also a clear instruction that after all the pillars are down, Ddoors are to be thrown as each base has one person capable of doing so. We are standing around after destroying the pillars when wiz begins a casting animation - Ddoor time! Wait, nope - resist cold on someone. K. Misclick I guess. Wiz begins casting again - now for a ddoor! Nope, another resist cold for someone. Blow that, I run back to base camp. Everyone follows.

Wiz stands just to the left of safe spot behind rock. Gets fireballed, group is splashed. No deaths, but some damage. Wizard is chastised and moves into rest of group. Again, just setting context.

The dragon is largely non-eventful, though shout out to our superlative healers, and I think some of the arcanes and other melees were doing some serious dps.

Then, loot drama! I pull a belt of the mronanon. I say, "nice haul. Belt of the Mronanon is up for roll".

Many people roll. Someone has a 91.
Then, after all of these rolls and a pause, the wiz rolls and gets a 98.

I said, "i'ma go ahead and veto the wiz roll. Giving belt to <roller of 91>".
Then over chat, someone goes "hey that's not right. that's dishonourable. he won the roll."
I responded with "cry on the forums" (irony appreciated at the point).
"That's happened to me before and that's just not right. You didn't say anything before the roll". Not raising his voice or anything; that said, being told you're dishonourable is inherently insulting.

I get a tell after the raid with "You're wrong and blacklisted."
I replied with "Okay. I'm not. <Wiz> was never going to use it. There is 0 chance that guy is going to TR".

Which was wholly my reasoning. I hate the unpleasantness and so never get involved in loot drama.

I don't roll on things that are even borderline useful to me if there's someone who looks like a better fit. I only loot if it is my item. I can't imagine I would ever pass an item to a guildie or friend.

That said I want items I put up for roll to be used. Like I said, that wizard was not going to use it. He didn't roll immediately and only did because critical mass seemed like rolling was the thing to do and named items are teh best. I shouldn't have to specify the implicit, "Only roll if you might actually use this item at some point".

Even if I had, it would have made 0 difference. For the record, it wasn't me restricting classes from the roll - if the wizard had not been repeatedly actively incompetent, I would have handed it over no questions asked assuming a TR despite this life being in no way requiring strength (definitely no PM-melee / tukaw fanciness there); there was literally only 1 member of that raid whose roll I would have veto'd.

Anyway, I don't like being called dishonourable. To me it would be far more dishonourable to go with the highest roll like a coward, knowing it was a total waste of an item others could use.

[LOOON375]

Why put it up for roll if you are going to exclude someone?

[Deathdefy]

I shouldn't have to specify the implicit, "Only roll if you might actually use this item at some point".

Because I didn't need it, and others could use it. Just not ALL others. As with most items put up for all.

[Tuney]

I'd personaly do the same thing , if I saw someone who should know better or should have saw what was the 'correct' action or failing to follow leadership when it is important(Key point). Sometimes taking the 'moral highroad' clashes with the 'standard path.'

The exlustion wasn't some arbiraty X , Y , Z can/can not use but actions of the player as seen by the OP was lacking to greatly in an 'elite setting' that if not nipped could spell doom for other players.

[anto_capone]

Not for nothing, but if you are going to exclude someone (as is your right), it might save you the drama to make your rules before people rolled on it.

"Everyone with/without a blue bar"
"Everyone except him/her/it"
"Only certain classes"
Etc..

Just seems wrong to set the rules, and then change them after the fact.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Loot drama. Elite Vault of Night 5, then Elite Vault of Night 6.

So, I join up for the at level elite VoN5/6 run on my main because, hey awesome XP! Plus, I still want a Sword of Shadows before undertaking any barb PLs, and would vaguely like a Helm of the Mronanon.

VoN 5 goes reasonably smoothly thanks to good leadership and a solid core of about 7-9 players who know exactly what they're doing. Was fun even! That said, one new wizard in particular was the first to die, died several more times, and generally didn't seem on the ball.

VoN 6 again was a reasonably smooth completion thanks to phat heals and reasonable dps despite a few people dying due to what I suspect are very low HP scores.

The only important thing to note is that I was designated to be on ice with said wizard and 2 others. We were told to send a tell to the person on our base who could cast resistances with our requests. I did so, "Hey, despite the fact I have a Ranger icon next to my name, I only have 6 levels, so I can only do dodgy 10 point resists - can I grab a resist fire please?" to the wizard and got back an inscrutable "okay me next". Someone eventually did cast a 30 point resist fire on me. But, I am far from certain it was the wiz. (This is not something I care about even slightly, just setting context).

There was also a clear instruction that after all the pillars are down, Ddoors are to be thrown as each base has one person capable of doing so. We are standing around after destroying the pillars when wiz begins a casting animation - Ddoor time! Wait, nope - resist cold on someone. K. Misclick I guess. Wiz begins casting again - now for a ddoor! Nope, another resist cold for someone. Blow that, I run back to base camp. Everyone follows.

Wiz stands just to the left of safe spot behind rock. Gets fireballed, group is splashed. No deaths, but some damage. Wizard is chastised and moves into rest of group. Again, just setting context.

The dragon is largely non-eventful, though shout out to our superlative healers, and I think some of the arcanes and other melees were doing some serious dps.

Then, loot drama! I pull a belt of the mronanon. I say, "nice haul. Belt of the Mronanon is up for roll".

Many people roll. Someone has a 91.
Then, after all of these rolls and a pause, the wiz rolls and gets a 98.

I said, "i'ma go ahead and veto the wiz roll. Giving belt to <roller of 91>".
Then over chat, someone goes "hey that's not right. that's dishonourable. he won the roll."
I responded with "cry on the forums" (irony appreciated at the point).
"That's happened to me before and that's just not right. You didn't say anything before the roll". Not raising his voice or anything; that said, being told you're dishonourable is inherently insulting.

I get a tell after the raid with "You're wrong and blacklisted."
I replied with "Okay. I'm not. <Wiz> was never going to use it. There is 0 chance that guy is going to TR".

Which was wholly my reasoning. I hate the unpleasantness and so never get involved in loot drama.

I don't roll on things that are even borderline useful to me if there's someone who looks like a better fit. I only loot if it is my item. I can't imagine I would ever pass an item to a guildie or friend.

That said I want items I put up for roll to be used. Like I said, that wizard was not going to use it. He didn't roll immediately and only did because critical mass seemed like rolling was the thing to do and named items are teh best. I shouldn't have to specify the implicit, "Only roll if you might actually use this item at some point".

Even if I had, it would have made 0 difference. For the record, it wasn't me restricting classes from the roll - if the wizard had not been repeatedly actively incompetent, I would have handed it over no questions asked assuming a TR despite this life being in no way requiring strength (definitely no PM-melee / tukaw fanciness there); there was literally only 1 member of that raid whose roll I would have veto'd.

Anyway, I don't like being called dishonourable. To me it would be far more dishonourable to go with the highest roll like a coward, knowing it was a total waste of an item others could use.

you put it up for a roll and didnt specify need only so... drama caused by you i honestly dont care how people roll aslong as its clear up front .

its a failing in this game especially since it has become f2p and theres more various "types" of players that everyone takes for granted they play the same n see thing the same its commun courtesy to be clear to avoid confusion.

not saying your dishonorable or anything just saying its tiresome when peeps cant take the mature route n say hmm oky maybe i coulda instead of sayin he shoulda blah blah

like someone once said, "ask not what your group can do for you! ask what can you do for your group!! "

[Dr.Strangeturd]

I got the same deal once on my ranger, for ruby encrusted gauntlets, won the roll then the person said anyone but you--because it's not a ranger item.

Long story short, they looted it after everyone but me finished out and sent me a tell saying they got 200 plat from the vendor for it.

Oh well.

VoN is run enough you'll find another pug.

Odds are your blacklisting will last a few weeks until they forget about it.

Next time, just loot it. (Unless you're on Khyber, then you gotta taunt the guy who won the roll, Khyber is the place for drama!)

I rarely put loot up for roll if I am in a party with people I know, otherwise I send a tell to a person who can use it and ask if they need it, after those situations, I roll it off.

[Mister_Peace]

Before dismissing his roll out of hand, you could intimidate him.

"Dude, seriously? You're not going to use it. No wizards use this belt. Casters need [other stuff, perhaps mention Amrath]. Just let the other guy have it."

If that doesn't work, you have some justification for ignoring his roll. I personally would have given it to him after lots of taunts and belittlement, just to claim the moral high ground.

[oberon131313]

You didn't honor the rules as you stated them to the party, which was "highest roll wins." It takes someone who isn't a coward to man up to his mistake when the wizard wins the roll, and hand over the item that was rightfully won...

[sephiroth1084]

I would have asked, in chat (voice or type) point blank whether the wizard knew what the item was and was actually going to use it. Ask if he is planning on TRing into a melee. Ask if he understands that it is bound to character.

I might go on to explain the value of the item to a melee over that of a mage. I probably wouldn't ask him why he wanted it, though that would be implicit, I suspect from any answers given.

For this case, I imagine it would have become clear to the group rather quickly that he was simply rolling because other people were rolling and didn't understand or realize the implications inherent in one of the above questions. At that point, I'd have given it to the guy that rolled a 91 unless the wizard was able to at least answer the above to some degree. Normally, in that case, a half-way competent person will realize that they really don't need/shouldn't be taking the item and will wave their roll anyway. Sometimes, I suspect, that may be simply from feeling bullied, which I'm not thrilled about,but that's an entirely different issue. Usually, though, it's simply because the person didn't realize what the item does, or what the implications of its power are, or that its BtC, or even, in some cases, what everyone is rolling on.

The upside to all of that, is it tends to skirt the issue you had, as you won't appear to be the outright "bad guy" who retroactively barred someone's roll.

[sephiroth1084]

I got the same deal once on my ranger, for ruby encrusted gauntlets, won the roll then the person said anyone but you--because it's not a ranger item.

Long story short, they looted it after everyone but me finished out and sent me a tell saying they got 200 plat from the vendor for it.

Haha! That guy just sounds like a ****. Not for rangers? The Ruby Gauntlets aren't for anyone. I mean, he did end up giving them to the one person that deserved/could really use them--the vendor, but to bar you on those grounds was silly.

[lekkus]

Before dismissing his roll out of hand, you could intimidate him.

"Dude, seriously? You're not going to use it. No wizards use this belt. Casters need [other stuff, perhaps mention Amrath]. Just let the other guy have it."

If that doesn't work, you have some justification for ignoring his roll. I personally would have given it to him after lots of taunts and belittlement, just to claim the moral high ground.

Wizards wouldn't use the belt? Why not? Epic Belt of the Mroranon: Belt, Str 7, Heavy Fort, Toughness, Yellow Slot. Looks like a great belt on a wizard eventually as well, certainly as many DPS would go for a ToD set and never leave home without it...
In short, even with all the OP flaming context, I don't see any reason why the wizard shouldn't be allowed to roll on it. The wizard won the roll. You didn't tell the pug-raid there were any rules. The wizard should have had it. Simple.

[Deathdefy]

Yeah, thanks for the posts guys. In future I will say something about needing to actually intend to use the item if you roll. I can genuinely see that my perception that putting something up for roll is automatically understood to mean it should just be rolled on by people who can use it is wrong.

I also should have asked the guy if he knew it was btc, and just strength and mod fort. I know the answer to that is 'no I have no clue why it would be of use to me', but I should have asked for diplomacy's sake instead of just ruling him out. Though, in a circumstance where he insisted on his roll being honoured without a justification of potential use I can't say I wouldn't veto him even if I haven't made a disclaimer (this is hypothetical. I'm totally going to be a disclaimer before rolls dude from now on).

Finally - if he epic's anything I will drink 4L of milk in 10 minutes as punishment for my insolence.

[Dr.Strangeturd]

Haha! That guy just sounds like a ****. Not for rangers? The Ruby Gauntlets aren't for anyone. I mean, he did end up giving them to the one person that deserved/could really use them--the vendor, but to bar you on those grounds was silly.

Lol, I may have used the flamestrike clicky, once, when I remembered....

Actually I did not have anything in my glove slot, only reason I wanted it.

Life goes on, 10 more runs and I might get them on my end reward list, lol.

[Arzoah]

He didn't even have to put it up for roll.

The honorable thing was that he put it up for those who could use it. He modified who he gave it to to the second highest roller after he saw that a class and player won the roll but had also inherently shown they do not have a full understanding of the game.

The honorable thing is being judicial and nonselfish. That's what a judge does. He was very noble and honorable and selfless. Had he said, "Oops hold on, I'm going to give this to my guildie" at the end, that would have shown questionable ethics. That was not the case.

In my own opinion, he did a very honorable thing.

The drama is not his own fault -- the players that got upset are the ones where the drama started. Every individual is responsible for their own actions and their own reactions. This is a very prominent topic in the news lately concerning President Obama and racism if you wish to study the topic further in a real and current setting.

The saying goes, Two Wrongs don't make a Right. I'm not saying the OP was even wrong -- I'm just saying by viewing that he was wrong and then chosing to take issue and create drama, there would have been more dishonorable issues at hand.

It seems actually that everyone conducted themselves fairly honorably in this issue. Yes, it was offensive to call the OP dishonorable over a choice in a video game in which he didn't even have to give the item away and did it judiciously to boot! However, it does not appear that further harassment and coy toying with him occurred, which means everyone let the issue wash under the bridge -- and that's something very hard to do. Good on everyone for letting the issue drop at the end.

The single blacklist will not stop you from getting into groups. Try to place a caveat in your up for rolls from now on as another poster suggested -- that you reserve the right to veto a roll if you feel the item is not fit for the player or that player did not contribute at the proper performance level to deserve a raid item from your loot table.


Anyway, I think you did a great job describing your event. It was classy. Not a standard thing I see here.

[lhidda]

Well, to my opinion it was wrong to exclude somebody. If you put something for roll it is not your sense of justice which decides whether a person need an item or not. Every character can use +6 strength and fortification.

[Snormal]

Blacklisting means nothing. I recently grouped with a dude that had me on his do not PUG list (for some trivial reason), and I got told once I was blacklisted by Ransack but I have grouped with Ransackers plenty of times too. 99% of the time it's just someone venting their moral outrage.

Also, agree with the dude above me.

[lekkus]

Finally - if he epic's anything I will drink 4L of milk in 10 minutes as punishment for my insolence.

It doesn't matter if he makes it epic or not. You think wizards shouldn't be allowed to roll on it and you're wrong.

[sephiroth1084]

Lol, I may have used the flamestrike clicky, once, when I remembered....

Actually I did not have anything in my glove slot, only reason I wanted it.

Life goes on, 10 more runs and I might get them on my end reward list, lol.

Then you, too, can experience the profound joy in selling crappy raid loot to a vendor.

[Alternative]

My wizard is using Epic Belt of The Mroranon because this belt is simply too weak for melees. Unless you're a monk, you're better of using Ravager set, FB set if barb, Kotc set if pally against EO. Not every WIZARD cares about extra 0.25 crit multiplier from AM set, while the Epic Mroranon Belt is great for consolidation and theres no single feature on this belt that isnt useful to a wizard (say a wizard doesn't need str and I'll kill with laughter)

OP fail.