Dear Casters: Spell changes do not mean the world's end, and here's why

[IncubusAcidicus]

2 things

1a) AM primary school conjuration, 2ndary school evocation. Will have webs for persistant cc, and an evocation DC capable of landing your nukes (firewall included) most of the time for full damage
-or-
1b) primary enchantment 2ndary evocation (for those of us who have invested in bard and wizzie PL for max enchant DC) use free single target hold or mass hold as situation requires and nuke, if you have a sorc in party you can conserve BOTH of you mana by holding mobs and making the sorcs mana more efficient while maintaining cc at the same time.

2) Sorc- 18 con 18 cha at character roll. pump cha. your firewalls will beat the reflex saves on most mobs without evasion. for those with evasion, as stated earlier in this post MOST of them stand still and shoot at you, so after the initial (maybe) save, they will take damage every tick for the next 26-28 seconds. (i say this as one of the guys who religiously rolled con pumped sorcs. its a change to the game so there will be a need to adapt. no big deal)

also reiterating what many in this thread have said, its all speculation until patch day

[Ashbinder]

then you will learn to clump up stuff better before asploding it.

O no, playskill required.

Again, it's not about playskill, it's about efficiency. I'm willing to wait for the five to ten seconds it takes after I drop a firewall to kill the majority of what I've pulled. After that point I'm moving forward because the dungeon alert has dropped back to green. I'm not going to spend twenty or thirty seconds jumping in circles waiting for everything to gather together for a DBF.

Example: Yesterday I did 4 normal runs through the Coalescence Chamber. At the start: Disco ball on the portal and 2 firewalls. Every time the portal spawned the mobs took 4-6 rounds of instant ticks and died immediately. The disco ball lasts just the same as it takes for the mobs to spawn, and I cast 6 firewalls. Compare that to the cost of using DBF (which as a sorc I'm not taking over Disco Ball, Finger or Banishment while in vale level range) and it's more efficient and guarantees the mobs die instantly.

Through the rest of the quest: finger or banish theurges or rangers, drop a firewall on the trolls, gnolls, bats and scorps when dungeon alert hits annoying. Conquest: drop a firewall before I kill the cube, bats die, I get 450 kills.

Firewall allows efficient clearing of large amounts of small trash with guaranteed success. The bat AI divebombs from distance then hovers slightly behind your head. The scorpions pop up and down like whack-a-moles. The trolls can't seem to decide between bows or clubs. To overcome this AI a persistent DoT spell is superior to an AoE blast.

[Junts]

Again, it's not about playskill, it's about efficiency. I'm willing to wait for the five to ten seconds it takes after I drop a firewall to kill the majority of what I've pulled. After that point I'm moving forward because the dungeon alert has dropped back to green. I'm not going to spend twenty or thirty seconds jumping in circles waiting for everything to gather together for a DBF.

Example: Yesterday I did 4 normal runs through the Coalescence Chamber. At the start: Disco ball on the portal and 2 firewalls. Every time the portal spawned the mobs took 4-6 rounds of instant ticks and died immediately. The disco ball lasts just the same as it takes for the mobs to spawn, and I cast 6 firewalls. Compare that to the cost of using DBF (which as a sorc I'm not taking over Disco Ball, Finger or Banishment while in vale level range) and it's more efficient and guarantees the mobs die instantly.

Through the rest of the quest: finger or banish theurges or rangers, drop a firewall on the trolls, gnolls, bats and scorps when dungeon alert hits annoying. Conquest: drop a firewall before I kill the cube, bats die, I get 450 kills.

Firewall allows efficient clearing of large amounts of small trash with guaranteed success. The bat AI divebombs from distance then hovers slightly behind your head. The scorpions pop up and down like whack-a-moles. The trolls can't seem to decide between bows or clubs. To overcome this AI a persistent DoT spell is superior to an AoE blast.

wall of fire still does all the things you just laid out, since you never use more than 30 seconds of it for that task.

[Ashbinder]

It doesn't do so as efficiently without extend. The 6 firewalls at the start become 12, the number for getting conquest from the bats doubles too. Damage output remains the same, but cost for use increases at any choke points.

Similar areas also include Madstone spawns during Seer sequences, trap room in Litany, and the 15 minutes of torture that is Hold for Reinforcements (I hate you Coyle) just to name a few. I'm sure others can list more. In these areas the goal is to maximize damage over an extended time to multiple targets for the least cost possible. Our best tool just became far more expensive for this task.

[Ponza69]

I am looking forward to testing it. Hope it is good. It may make the game a whole lot more enjoyable.

I bet some casters out there never filled their spell book up outside of the most popular ones.

I a looking forward to Burning Blood and other DoTs - hopefully they will do something worthy rather than meh.

[Junts]

It doesn't do so as efficiently without extend. The 6 firewalls at the start become 12, the number for getting conquest from the bats doubles too. Damage output remains the same, but cost for use increases at any choke points.

Similar areas also include Madstone spawns during Seer sequences, trap room in Litany, and the 15 minutes of torture that is Hold for Reinforcements (I hate you Coyle) just to name a few. I'm sure others can list more. In these areas the goal is to maximize damage over an extended time to multiple targets for the least cost possible. Our best tool just became far more expensive for this task.

Has it occured to you that the developers might regard running through every quest casting the same spell over and over and over being the most efficient way of playing the game to be horrible game design and boring as **** for most players?

Listen, I'm sorry you feel that the extra 50 seconds your firewall isn't sitting there doing nothing after it kills bats is a loss of your efficiency, but if you really have problems soloing a quest that's over 3 years old on your caster, personally, I'd consider another game.

[shagath]

I usually dbf(sorc with sup inferno IX. pretty much guaranteed aoe kill) or wail(wizard) trolls and gnolls.

Conquest: drop a firewall before I kill the cube, bats die, I get 450 kills.

Not the most efficient way to deal with that. They are bats so they are weak. Incendiary cloud, acid fog, cloud kill and death aura.. All much better options. Longer duration and guarantees bats getting killed.

[Ashbinder]

Grind is core to the game, as I'm sure you know being a veteran player. You run the same quests and raids over and over using the tactics that work most efficiently. Occasionally there'll be some variety (all barbarian shroud, all pale master shroud, naked tempest spine) but typically it's the same old same old. When Lama goes live with the changes veterans will examine the spell tables, crunch the numbers, determine the new most efficient method and nod sagely in their wisdom. The quest for efficiency is omnipresent.

It's not about difficulty. Casters can and will continue to solo most game content. It's about efficiency and reducing the effectiveness of one of a caster's most potent tools. The game devs have every right to state how they wish the game to be played, but I feel unhappy with the direction this one change has taken. I disagree that the change to firewall is a good thing, I don't disagree that it's a reality. It makes levelling an arcane more of a grind. If you've been through multiple TRs I'm sure you understand the concept that there's no new content after awhile and the only challenge is maximizing your exp rate. Especially given the lack of quests in the upper game bracket every quest counts, which is why I run 3 year old content and lack the patience to PUG something I can solo in faster time with no loss of 10% exp.

Thanks for the suggestion too Shagath, +1 for suggesting cloudkill. Looks like I'll have to add a Superior Erosion V clickie to my collection. Unfortunately DBF or Incendiary Cloud isn't an option for two reasons: 1. As a 17 Sorceror my level 8 spell slots are Polar Ray for use on that which firewall doesn't kill and Summon Monster VIII for Air Ele CC, and 2. All Superior Inferno IV clickies are level 18+. Coalescence Chamber is a level 16 quest, so you would run it at 17 on normal for maximum exp return.

[delsoboss]

Nobody messes with the Doomsayers' Union ...

[Mister_Peace]

OMG FIREWALLLOL !!!!!

No you won't. Since if you're ccing there is no way you will have the mana to actually go and do spell dps at the same time. You will have even less mana now that saves are going back up AND you probably won't even have the time since you will need to be recasting that mass hold and switching to mutiple webs to take care of all the mobs that can't be held anymore since they fixed the sr check on mass hold

The minion save penalty reduction combined with the change to helplessness is a larger caster nerf than the change to firewall. Unfortunately, all anyone wants to talk about is damage.

[protokon]

+1 because you actually posted correct, valid info to reinforce your point.

-occasionally, in my circle of friends, we have a melee kite the shadows in tod using a solid fog clicky for fun

[shagath]

All Superior Inferno IV clickies are level 18+. Coalescence Chamber is a level 16 quest, so you would run it at 17 on normal for maximum exp return.

Good point. I remembered it from my latest elite run. Forgot that one. IIRC Firewall + neg burst is what I did in my last life on n/h.

[Lycurgus]

The changes to firewall are irrelevant. If you want efficient damage, the sorc Pres and SLAs will make up the difference and players will adapt.

The changes to crowd control are drastic. It's a rare wizard who can cast a mass hold 2-3 times every encounter without sucking pots. One option would be to spam the single target SLA, which reduces cc to mindlessly clicking hypno, web and hold monster SLAs until your finger falls off. It's a crappy option, but it's an option.

Another possibility is that arcanes will eventually obtain cc results similar to those experienced now with the appropriate combination of bard/FvS/wiz past lives.

I'm of the view that arcanes are being redefined as purely magical dps to promote mnemonic sales in the store.

[Slorgs]

With the changes to hold monster, firewall will do -more- damage. 50% more.

[Nospheratus]

The problem with these changes isn't just firewall. It was the only sp-efficient spell that could be sustained through a quest. It no longer is!

There are three distinct parts of a character's climb to level 20.
- Before vale quests;
- After vale quest;
- Epic quests.

Before vale quests, firewall basically just destroys anything you put on it. You can use other spells like FoD or cone of cold. A caster as DPS is viable and sustainable. Debuffing is irrelevant and cc is almost irrelevant.

After vale quests casters rely mainly on cc/instadeath spells. DPS is no longer a viable and sustainable option due to high/very high hps and high resistances. Debuffing is next to irrelevant.

In epic quests casters are basically do two things: CC and DPS (with firewall and in some cases with ice storm). Very little debuffing, and whatever debuffing is done is next to irrelevant.


What is being changed:
- Persistent damage spells;
- Instant damage spells;
- Spell damage enhancements;
- Death effect spells;
- Minion debuff removal.

- The persistent damage spells cost more, last less and deal less damage.
- The instant damage spells cost less but they would still need to be a lot cheaper to be compared to what firewall is/will be in terms of efficiency. The instant damage spells also have another problem, which is the fact that the targeting works poorly (even though Torc said it was begin improved), mobs get behind obstacles in the middle of the casting animations, in many quests it is difficult for 1 area instant damage spell to affect more than 2 mobs.
- Spell damage enhancements have been changed, their costs apparently "lowered" but in fact increased! In order to get to the same Max damage(+40%)/max crit chance(+9%)/max crit damage(+125%) you will need to spend a lot more!

Considering having fire and cold with the same boosts:
BEFORE:
Damage (+40%): 10 APs
Crit multiplier (+125%): 6 APs
Crit chance (+9%): 6 APs
-----------
22 APs

NOW (including both fire and cold):
Damage (+40%): 10 APs
Crit multiplier (+125%): 12 APs
Crit chance (+9%): 12 APs
-----------
34 APs

Considering you want to spend the same APs as before:
Damage (+40%): 10 APs
Crit multiplier (+95%): 6 APs
Crit chance (+6%): 6 APs
-----------
22 APs

So, regarding the versatility argument, this shows why the versatility is going away. You have to specialize in one of the elements if you want to have the same efficiency as before, for the same cost.

- The death effect spells have their cooldowns increased and will obviously be a lot less used. PWK is hardly worth mentioning due to it's super high cooldown. I don't believe that people that actually chose the spell will even rely on it or remember then have it(?).


- Removal of the minion debuff will have a small effect I believe, even considering you can use insta-kill spells in epic. The mobs saves are high enough to almost ignore most of these spells. The cc will also be more limited. I consider my caster to have a very good DC on his enchantment spells and, depending on the quest, some mobs still save (not considering casters due to their good save being will).



As conclusion, I can see a lot less impact of casters through quests due to lower efficiency and higher cost, in general, of damage spells and lower efficiency of cc (mostly in epic quests).
The changes may not be final, but I doubt they aren't. In my opinion these changes are bad because they promote less variety... The fact that other spells are slightly less bad won't make up for that.

Of course you can always forget everything and brute force all quests by buying stacks of 200 pots from the store - more $$ for Turbine to make more of these changes that make people buy more pots... (forget about fixing the several year old bugs though...)

[Ashbinder]

OMG FIREWALLLOL !!!!!

The minion save penalty reduction combined with the change to helplessness is a larger caster nerf than the change to firewall. Unfortunately, all anyone wants to talk about is damage.

Minion save penalty reduction hurts everyone, notably stunner monks that were borderline DCs before this, but it's epic. You should expect it to be hard, and let's not forget saves were previously nerfed. Hold + Heavy Picks is gone too, hurting a lot of people who spent Larges on gear. Helplessness in general is no longer going to be an instant win strategy, and the player base will need to evolve to compensate.

Besides the demise of firewalls, my second biggest dislike is the extended cool-down on Wail. 30 seconds means a long period with no fast way of clearing trash above vale level. What's your typical Shroud strategy? Melee beats portals while casters wail the trash. 30 second cooldown means you're going to have about 20 seconds between one portal and another where you either snipe with single target spells or try to nuke the trash to death instead. I'd love to hear other opinions on alternative Shroud portal strategies, because while it's certainly not a hard raid to complete and portals are by far the easiest part, standard strategy will need to change.

[pie2655]

Thank you OP! Finally someone whos worth his bacon. Really the changes are great! It seems some people dont realize there are more than 4 spells that a wiz/sorc can cast.

[voodoogroves]

Wall of fire can handle the DPS loss.

I have no doubt casters can handle that. What isn't clear to me is how things are really going to be playing, because we've not seen all the details yet. For instance, we've seen a change to epics, but I'm unsure if they are going to change the scale leading up to epics. We've seen some modifications that make it seem like a new path might be the rapid casting of direct-DPS spells and even more that are making folks wonder about even using metamagics.

It's all speculation until we see the full mix.

I suspect, and this is me being nice, what people are reacting to is not "can their caster be relevant". They used to do X, clearly a capped Wiz/Sorc can now do Y. Rather "did I just grind out and spec all my feats and stats to do X, but now Y is the way to go". Dunno. Sorc spell selection, feats, etc.

Again, what I suspect is really at the core.

[DelverRootnose]

....it is quite easy to be sanguine about the changes when it is someone else who is getting the nerf bat. or the you have to completely change you character and playstyle bat. I would love to hear the whining if the 'you have to stand in place for a second before you could swing your weapon unless you had spring attack' change comes up or similar. Remember all the whining from the melees when they changed the animation cycle on TWFing oh the horror and that wasn't a change that required much in the way of strategy changes

It is always easier to accept other peoples need to change.

[DelverRootnose]

Minion save penalty reduction hurts everyone, notably stunner monks that were borderline DCs before this, but it's epic. You should expect it to be hard, and let's not forget saves were previously nerfed. Hold + Heavy Picks is gone too, hurting a lot of people who spent Larges on gear. Helplessness in general is no longer going to be an instant win strategy, and the player base will need to evolve to compensate.

Besides the demise of firewalls, my second biggest dislike is the extended cool-down on Wail. 30 seconds means a long period with no fast way of clearing trash above vale level. What's your typical Shroud strategy? Melee beats portals while casters wail the trash. 30 second cooldown means you're going to have about 20 seconds between one portal and another where you either snipe with single target spells or try to nuke the trash to death instead. I'd love to hear other opinions on alternative Shroud portal strategies, because while it's certainly not a hard raid to complete and portals are by far the easiest part, standard strategy will need to change.

The alternate potal strategy is just not have a caster, there is really little need to clear ahead unless you really don't have the DPS and a portal keeper comes out. The mobs don't activate untill you get close so all you have to do it run up and most of the mobs will be killed by glancing blows.