Dear Casters: Spell changes do not mean the world's end, and here's why

[Junts]

This is just a point by point breakdown of how various responses to these changes are overwrought. Hopefully I can address certain misinformation and/or misconceptions associated with the change.



1: Firewall's nerfed to uselessness!

This one's untrue. The two changes to firewall make it less effective in certain situations (when you need more than 30 seconds of the burn, and if you kite back and forth across the wall). It's still effective for these tasks, but you'll have to cast it more frequently (as its shorter) and some mobs may save when they cross the wall (but they still can't save if they just sit in the wall, and most evasion mobs are archers that stand still, so they'll still burn the same).

The damage nerf is small: primarily, this will make doing things with firewall a bit more expensive.


2: We can't kite tower anymore!

Any AoE with any effect will get the Shadow aggro - you can kite them with cloudkills, fog spells, glitterdusts, and anything else. The opportunity for the shadows to evade firewall on elite isn't a threat - just cast a different spell, and there's so many you surely have one of the others that suffices.

3: We can't deal damage anymore!

Firewall will be a little less effective in some situations, but other spells are going to be a lot more effective. They'll be cheaper and mob HP are being lowered and their damage is being increased (by the new enhancement lines and prestiges). You'll be in a position where you can blow up even epic mobs with chain lightnings or delayed-blast fireballs, and you won't always have to use firewall to deal efficient damage. The point of the spell changes is to bring more parity to damage:mana ratio, not to significantly change the damage dealt by those spells. The enhancements change every spell (with more damage, and resistance bypass).

4: X tactic I use isn't good anymore!

This is probably true. This isn't a caster nerf: in fact, its an attempt at a gigantic caster buff, which requires firewall to not be the only spell you ever cast for damage.

However, what's happening with casters and spells is the most radical change to the way a class is intended to be played on DDO that has ever happened. They aren't only changing spells or enhancements or adding abilities, they're changing every single thing that factors into how you play your caster: the damage you deal, your spell dcs (to a lesser extent), the sp your spells cost, the Hp and saves of the monsters you cast it at, and the things that increase the damage dealt to those foes (like spells doing 50% more damage to held targets).

Arcane casters right now use a very small toolbox - mass hold, web, flesh to stone, wall of fire, symbol of persuasion, polar ray, and in nonepic content, instant death spells. What spells you want, and what you use for a given monster is going to change radically in this mod. These changes aren't just about your effectiveness, they're about changing your gameplay experience. Casters are going to be radically different than they are today, with more varied play between specs (different elements), different classes (wizard and sorc), and different content and preferences.

If you're not comfortable with that, it might be a good idea to find another class or another game.

[SynalonEtuul]

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about and isn't basically an idiot

[elujin]

ofcourse they can always mess it up in live
but it seems like a caster buff to mee too i even rolled up a sorc cous they sound more like fun now not just a buffer and suport cc

*edite* how dare you bring logic and be reasonable and calm don't you know its DOOOM 'o clock ?

[Syllph]

Thank you. Finally, someone who thinks.

[Lerincho]

Yes it is an end to the One Trick Pony casters. Sick and tired of being required to have 4 spells to even group these days.
Leader: Do you have Firewall, Haste, Reconstruct and Jump?
PuG: I have other spells.
PuG has been kicked from the pary.

[Lerincho]

ofcourse they can always mess it up in live
but it seems like a caster buff to mee too i even rolled up a sorc cous they sound more like fun now not just a buffer and suport cc

*edite* how dare you bring logic and be reasonable and calm don't you know its DOOOM 'o clock ?

Even the Doomsday clock never hit Midnight.

[Kaeldur]

This is just a point by point breakdown of how various responses to these changes are overwrought. Hopefully I can address certain misinformation and/or misconceptions associated with the change.



1: Firewall's nerfed to uselessness!

This one's untrue. The two changes to firewall make it less effective in certain situations (when you need more than 30 seconds of the burn, and if you kite back and forth across the wall). It's still effective for these tasks, but you'll have to cast it more frequently (as its shorter) and some mobs may save when they cross the wall (but they still can't save if they just sit in the wall, and most evasion mobs are archers that stand still, so they'll still burn the same).

The damage nerf is small: primarily, this will make doing things with firewall a bit more expensive.


2: We can't kite tower anymore!

Any AoE with any effect will get the Shadow aggro - you can kite them with cloudkills, fog spells, glitterdusts, and anything else. The opportunity for the shadows to evade firewall on elite isn't a threat - just cast a different spell, and there's so many you surely have one of the others that suffices.

3: We can't deal damage anymore!

Firewall will be a little less effective in some situations, but other spells are going to be a lot more effective. They'll be cheaper and mob HP are being lowered and their damage is being increased (by the new enhancement lines and prestiges). You'll be in a position where you can blow up even epic mobs with chain lightnings or delayed-blast fireballs, and you won't always have to use firewall to deal efficient damage. The point of the spell changes is to bring more parity to damage:mana ratio, not to significantly change the damage dealt by those spells. The enhancements change every spell (with more damage, and resistance bypass).

4: X tactic I use isn't good anymore!

This is probably true. This isn't a caster nerf: in fact, its an attempt at a gigantic caster buff, which requires firewall to not be the only spell you ever cast for damage.

However, what's happening with casters and spells is the most radical change to the way a class is intended to be played on DDO that has ever happened. They aren't only changing spells or enhancements or adding abilities, they're changing every single thing that factors into how you play your caster: the damage you deal, your spell dcs (to a lesser extent), the sp your spells cost, the Hp and saves of the monsters you cast it at, and the things that increase the damage dealt to those foes (like spells doing 50% more damage to held targets).

Arcane casters right now use a very small toolbox - mass hold, web, flesh to stone, wall of fire, symbol of persuasion, polar ray, and in nonepic content, instant death spells. What spells you want, and what you use for a given monster is going to change radically in this mod. These changes aren't just about your effectiveness, they're about changing your gameplay experience. Casters are going to be radically different than they are today, with more varied play between specs (different elements), different classes (wizard and sorc), and different content and preferences.

If you're not comfortable with that, it might be a good idea to find another class or another game.

That's pretty much what I was thinking... I think everyone kinda looked first and thought "holy cow huge nerf to fw", but then some people looked at it again and realized what the whole point was. If it will work as intended or not, how exactly will it be... we cannot know for sure. I'm reserving further comments until U9 actually comes and we can see how it will be. Until then just speculation...

By the way very nice post! Resumes exactly what I've been thinking...

[sirgog]

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about and isn't basically an idiot

Yep. It's amazing how many people are going berserk over the biggest caster buff that's happened since Mod 5, just because it's happening at the same time as one overpowered spell cops a nerfing.

One more myth to add to your OP, Junts:


5: Power Word Kill is worthless: 4 min cooldown OMGWTHBBQ!
This spell isn't intended to be spammed throughout a quest. It's intended to be used in two situations:

a) Emergency response to a mistake, like getting too much aggro
b) Killing ultra-high HP and/or very dangerous orange nameds, especially those with no/minimal SR.

Use it any time you would have quadruple energy drained then Flesh to Stoned a mob.



I do think ToD will be harder for arcanes to kite (FW needs to be cast more often; most alternatives to FW take longer to recast), but I'll continue kiting elite runs with non-extended Bladebarriers.

[Xyfiel]

Just thinking if DBF trap version would cover the TOD situation. Cast it a bit further up and use as a backup aggro getter. Or cast them in front of the shadow spawn points. Not certain how long it sticks around though. Symbol of flame might work also.

[joeuhuh]

im less concerned with firewall and more concerned withe the split of the dmg type enchanments to dmg and crit

befor a wf sorc could spend 54 ap and max out fire/cold and 10 to max repair dmg and 22 to max acid electric dmg and crits

now to max out fire dmg and crits costs 18 ap
max out one of cold acid electric or force dmg and crits 18 ap
max out repair dmg 7 ap
take fire pre 8 ap (not counting prereqs)
51 ap no crits for repair ( not needed anyways) nothing in 3 dmg types i had befor

minimal increase in dmg 1.75 x ( .5 enhancement +.2 capstone +.5 potency + 1 base+)now as opposed 1.75 x (.4 enh+.2 capstone +.5 potency + 1 base)
now 1.75 x 2.2 befor 1.75 x 2.1
thats 3.85 x base damage now as opposed to 3.675 x base dmg befor

so u are spending 2 less ap for minimal dmg increase in 2 types and losing three other dmg types completely -- and this is suposed to diversify spell selection

[voodoogroves]

4: X tactic I use isn't good anymore!

This is probably true. This isn't a caster nerf: in fact, its an attempt at a gigantic caster buff, which requires firewall to not be the only spell you ever cast for damage.

However, what's happening with casters and spells is the most radical change to the way a class is intended to be played on DDO that has ever happened. They aren't only changing spells or enhancements or adding abilities, they're changing every single thing that factors into how you play your caster: the damage you deal, your spell dcs (to a lesser extent), the sp your spells cost, the Hp and saves of the monsters you cast it at, and the things that increase the damage dealt to those foes (like spells doing 50% more damage to held targets).

Arcane casters right now use a very small toolbox - mass hold, web, flesh to stone, wall of fire, symbol of persuasion, polar ray, and in nonepic content, instant death spells. What spells you want, and what you use for a given monster is going to change radically in this mod. These changes aren't just about your effectiveness, they're about changing your gameplay experience. Casters are going to be radically different than they are today, with more varied play between specs (different elements), different classes (wizard and sorc), and different content and preferences.

If you're not comfortable with that, it might be a good idea to find another class or another game.

This is the only one that matters to me (though I suspect my toolbox uses more spells than you). I could give a rats-whatever about Wall of Fire - that thing needed a hit. I said this in another thread, the big reason I still use it is that if I select someone and click to cast it ... it casts. So many other spells (looking at you Ice Storm) that could fill a similar role will bug out, fail to cast, still cost SP, tell me I'm facing the wrong direction etc.



It's not about another tactic, for me. For me it is the potential that the other tactic is simply an elemental-flavored DPS. I burninate! I zap! If that becomes the way, then yes ... I will likely play another class or another build. If the proposed SP reductions don't really do anything because the metamagics are on, they are meaningless. If the expectation is to debuff-before CC but the CC targeting and control is still poor on many spells, it will lose tremendous value in comparison to direct damage.




The sky is NOT falling, but the way the metagame flows, this kind of systemic change carries risk that Turbine can't fully predict and model. Huge changes all at once can have unintended consequences.


You said it yourself ... "it is an attempt at a caster buff" ... and I'll just go on record saying I have reservations about such a wide-reaching change at the same time as the epic rebalance.


Thankfully, I have several wizards and several sorcerers ... and a few true hearts in the bank just in case.

[Junts]

This is the only one that matters to me (though I suspect my toolbox uses more spells than you). I could give a rats-whatever about Wall of Fire - that thing needed a hit. I said this in another thread, the big reason I still use it is that if I select someone and click to cast it ... it casts. So many other spells (looking at you Ice Storm) that could fill a similar role will bug out, fail to cast, still cost SP, tell me I'm facing the wrong direction etc.



It's not about another tactic, for me. For me it is the potential that the other tactic is simply an elemental-flavored DPS. I burninate! I zap! If that becomes the way, then yes ... I will likely play another class or another build. If the proposed SP reductions don't really do anything because the metamagics are on, they are meaningless. If the expectation is to debuff-before CC but the CC targeting and control is still poor on many spells, it will lose tremendous value in comparison to direct damage.




The sky is NOT falling, but the way the metagame flows, this kind of systemic change carries risk that Turbine can't fully predict and model. Huge changes all at once can have unintended consequences.


You said it yourself ... "it is an attempt at a caster buff" ... and I'll just go on record saying I have reservations about such a wide-reaching change at the same time as the epic rebalance.


Thankfully, I have several wizards and several sorcerers ... and a few true hearts in the bank just in case.

There isn't any reason you can't not take a PRE and continue to focus on crowd control, compensating for your lower DCs by being able to cast every spell multiple times. That's what sorcs already do (extremely effectively, I'll add).

The thing is, the 'elemental dps' option doesn't really exist, outside of lowbies and perching, and having it be a viable tactic, with a wide range of spells (and consequently a wide range of methods of doing it, and viability in different quests) is a huge upgrade to the game.

[voodoogroves]

There isn't any reason you can't not take a PRE and continue to focus on crowd control, compensating for your lower DCs by being able to cast every spell multiple times. That's what sorcs already do (extremely effectively, I'll add).

Yeah, but if elemental DPS is faster than CC and resolving an encounter, I'm not going to do CC. Action-efficiency.

Try to hold 2 times then zap 4 times or just zap 6 times (crude example) ... etc.

The thing is, the 'elemental dps' option doesn't really exist, outside of lowbies and perching, and having it be a viable tactic, with a wide range of spells (and consequently a wide range of methods of doing it, and viability in different quests) is a huge upgrade to the game.

Again, all this remains to be seen. No doom and gloom ... but man I urge caution. Changing multiple mechanics and systems at once often doesn't end up like paper predictions.

It's definitely a "change". Whether or not it's an "upgrade" is the question.

[Drow16]

Great post JUNTS! Well thought out and well presented; +1 Rep . I agree these will be some major changes, but I am excited about trying some new tricks and not the same old thing. Any news yet on when update 9 rolls out?

[Quarterling]

Thank you, I've been waiting for somebody to make a rational thread such as this. +1

[Ungood]

It is a nice topic, and well said, but. That aside, this is a massive nerf to firewall. And while, yes, I have other spells, Fire wall was handy, convent, and did not mess up my screen with a cloud-gas effect (Which was the only reason why I did not use Incendiary Cloud much more often, and Glitter? Uggh ICK!)

But, all things said and done, this is a deliberate. massive directed nerf at the Fire Wall Spell, and like any nerf to any ability, it will not be received well.

This rejection of things being nerfed (Not simply changed, this was a direct Nerf) is never received well, compound that by the fact that Fire Wall has become an iconic spell of the Arcane casters.

However, at this time, as an arcane, I will openly admit I am feeling very bemused by this coming up date, however, we shall see if the sun shine and flower predictors that say Arcane's and casters as a whole will get better. While I hope you are right for obvious reasons, I will admit to a level of apprehension by this.

We shall see.

[cdemeritt]

While I agree with you, the world isn't ending, it doesn't mean this isn't going to hurt...


The Nerf to Wall of Fire, as much as I hate the changes, I will as a caster admit, were long overdue. That being said, I guess I'm gonna clear my schedule and Do the Necro Quests on Elite now for Favor, Before the changes...

[MrWizard]

1: Firewall's nerfed to uselessness!

This one's untrue. The two changes to firewall make it less effective in certain situations (when you need more than 30 seconds of the burn, and if you kite back and forth across the wall). It's still effective for these tasks, but you'll have to cast it more frequently (as its shorter) and some mobs may save when they cross the wall (but they still can't save if they just sit in the wall, and most evasion mobs are archers that stand still, so they'll still burn the same).

ever a proponent of intimidate as a skill that is useful, I would say my intimtanks ability to 'make them stand in the wall' will be welcomed most assuredly.

awesome


For the tower, what about one of those symbols, doesn't one weaken mobs (thus slows them)? that would be good to throw up too.

[Xithos]

I'm going to wait to pass judgement as to whether or not the sky is falling or casters are useful in epic until they finalize these tentative proposed changes and get them on the live server along with the mob rebalancing (hp and saves). As it stands right now, I play a sorceror having deleted my wizard a long time ago and I even I don't want sorcerors in my epic groups Until then, its still business as usual with wizards casting mass hold on any trash mob that moves and the big bad TWF Heavypick guy smacking it down.

[xman26]

This is just a point by point breakdown of how various responses to these changes are overwrought. Hopefully I can address certain misinformation and/or misconceptions associated with the change.



1: Firewall's nerfed to uselessness!

This one's untrue. The two changes to firewall make it less effective in certain situations (when you need more than 30 seconds of the burn, and if you kite back and forth across the wall). It's still effective for these tasks, but you'll have to cast it more frequently (as its shorter) and some mobs may save when they cross the wall (but they still can't save if they just sit in the wall, and most evasion mobs are archers that stand still, so they'll still burn the same).

The damage nerf is small: primarily, this will make doing things with firewall a bit more expensive.

-1

Couldn't disagree more. As it isn't just FW that is being nerfed. While the damage for FW is being reduced and its time frame, the fact that IT AND ALL OTHER DoT SPELLS ARE BEING KILLED WITH THE LOSS OF EXTEND IS A HUGE NERF!!!!!!