On Buffing Elves, Dwarves and Drow

[AylinIsAwesome]

According to the new release notes Half-Orcs are going to be a very powerful race.

And while I, like many other players, have looked forward to this race, how brokenly powerful this race is just boggles my mind.


For THF, they get:

+6 Damage/-3 Attack (Power Attack enhancements)
+4 Damage/+0 Attack (Orcish Melee damage)
Extra Glancing Blow Damage (Great Weapon Aptitude)
+3 Damage/+2 Attack (higher starting STR and Enhancements)

Total:
+13 Damage/-1 Attack, with Extra Glancing Blow damage


For TWF they get:

+3 Damage/-3 Attack (Power Attack)
+2 Damage/+2 Attack (STR mod)

Total"
+5 Damage/-1 Attack



Comparing the THF to Elves and Dwarves are at +4 Damage/+2 Attack when compared to a Half-Orc and the Half-Orc can use any Two-Handed weapon while Dwarves and Elves must specialize.


I agree that Half-Orcs should thematically get damage boosts to THF. But I don't that a Half-Orc should have the same bonus to a Falchion as an Elf does, when the Elf specializes in that weapon exclusively. The same goes for Dwarf and Greataxe.

So I suggest that Dwarves and Elves damage be increased to +4 per tier, instead of the +2 per tier it is now. This would result in having Elves and Dwarves at +8/+2 compared to the Half-Orc's +13/-1, which I think is fair as the Half-Orcs needs to spend more APs on this than the Elf or Dwarf.


For TWF, Elves, Dwarves and Drow are all at +2/+2 in a specialized weapon, compared to the Half-Orcs +5/-1 which works with Khopesh.

In my opinion, the best way to fix this would be to increase the to-hit bonuses to +2 per tier, instead of +1. In addition, the second tier of damage should be increased to +2. At +3/+4, this would let the Elf, Dwarf or Drow character keep power attack on against high-AC mobs in a situation where the Half-Orc would need to turn it off.


Elves, and in particular Drow, would still need some buffing with some of their lines, but this should be a start.

[azrael4h]

I think the dev reasoning is that Elves and Dwarves also get +2 to attack bonus as well as +2 to damage over their lines. However, it's not quite as balancing, as a Melee character will be hitting everything on a 1 anyway eventually. For HOs vs Humans and especially Halflings, the effect is especially unbalancing in regards to damage.

So I agree, the Elf and Dwarf damage enhancements should be brought up to par with HOs THF damage enhancements, or at least reduced to 1/2AP for the tiers. The +2 attack bonus is almost irrelevant, though it can help offset the PA penalty. This would make them better in their specialized fields, while the HO would be able to just grab whatever they wanted and get their bonuses.

Drow have been needing a pass to boost their strength to usable levels. Giving them actually usable SR may help as well as boosting their damage enhancements.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I think the dev reasoning is that Elves and Dwarves also get +2 to attack bonus as well as +2 to damage over their lines. However, it's not quite as balancing, as a Melee character will be hitting everything on a 1 anyway eventually. For HOs vs Humans and especially Halflings, the effect is especially unbalancing in regards to damage.

I think you mean 2.

Mobs in Epic do have higher ACs, so hitting on a 2 isn't possible anymore. My suggestion was to increase the DPS of these races by giving them higher to-hit than they get now.

So I agree, the Elf and Dwarf damage enhancements should be brought up to par with HOs THF damage enhancements, or at least reduced to 1/2AP for the tiers. The +2 attack bonus is almost irrelevant, though it can help offset the PA penalty. This would make them better in their specialized fields, while the HO would be able to just grab whatever they wanted and get their bonuses.

Actually I think that since Elves and Dwarves specialize, their bonuses should be better. Someone who spends all her time training with a Falchion is probably going to be a bit better using it than a someone who just likes to swing big things around.

Drow have been needing a pass to boost their strength to usable levels. Giving them actually usable SR may help as well as boosting their damage enhancements.

Agreed.

[sephiroth1084]

Definitely agree that the dwarf, drow and elf weapon enhancements could do for some revisions. Increase the bonus to damage they provide, lessen their cost, or combine the attack and damage portions.

[Meetch1972]

When the dust settles, there will most probably be a re-balance...

[Deamus]

Instead of buffing other races they should nerf the half-orc a lot before release !

PS: I m seeing FW spell issue all over again of borking and nerfing other classes again again ......Do you all remember that ?

[krogyy]

Instead of buffing other races they should nerf the half-orc a lot before release !

PS: I m seeing FW spell issue all over again of borking and nerfing other classes again again ......Do you all remember that ?

i agree.

what about the poor humans that have no dmg bonus?

even the halflings risk extinction.

+8 sa for 20ap (or +6 sa for 12ap) vs +5 base dmg for 12ap

(talking twf here)

[AltheaSteelrain]

/signed

Elf and Drow needs better enhancements.

[sephiroth1084]

i agree.

what about the poor humans that have no dmg bonus?


(talking twf here)

Theoretically, they have Human Versatility, which provides up to a +5 damage boost, though it is incredibly inefficient and its efficacy is debatable.

[voodoogroves]

Dwarves have meaningful weapons; a boost there could bring them in line.

Elves and drow though ... weapons not so meaningful. If you really want parity you need to not only
- Increase Falchion and Greataxe to be competitive

... but also ...
- Make longswords, shortswords a meaningful choice for elves/drow
- Potentially boost rapiers for elves/drow


I could see benefit to making different changes (ie, not weapon and melee based) to elf and drow races instead. For instance, making SR for drow passive, non-purchased and level-based. Provide a meaningful bonus to both races as casters ... DC increases, etc. Increase the capability of the arcane spell failure line and reduce its cost.

Or, really, provide a "racial-change-heart-of-wood" so I can swap the race for my characters.

[MarkusWolfe]

Dwarves have meaningful weapons; a boost there could bring them in line.

Elves and drow though ... weapons not so meaningful. If you really want parity you need to not only
- Increase Falchion and Greataxe to be competitive

... but also ...
- Make longswords, shortswords a meaningful choice for elves/drow
- Potentially boost rapiers for elves/drow


I could see benefit to making different changes (ie, not weapon and melee based) to elf and drow races instead. For instance, making SR for drow passive, non-purchased and level-based. Provide a meaningful bonus to both races as casters ... DC increases, etc. Increase the capability of the arcane spell failure line and reduce its cost.

Or, really, provide a "racial-change-heart-of-wood" so I can swap the race for my characters.

Would that force you to lower skill points from a decreased INT by any chance?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Instead of buffing other races they should nerf the half-orc a lot before release !

PS: I m seeing FW spell issue all over again of borking and nerfing other classes again again ......Do you all remember that ?

This update has already included too many nerfs. I'm fine with Half-Orcs staying where they are as long as the other races get a boost.

i agree.

what about the poor humans that have no dmg bonus?

even the halflings risk extinction.

+8 sa for 20ap (or +6 sa for 12ap) vs +5 base dmg for 12ap

(talking twf here)

Humans can more easily pick up Khopesh than any other race, that's their damage boost.

Adding a line for Bastard Sword wouldn't be that bad as it would finally give the weapon at least some value, but in the end Khopesh would still be better anyway.

I think the best way to buff Humans though would be to let Human Versatility count for class pre-reqs, such as counting as Damage Boost for Assassin 1.

[yams]

No. Too much of the game is already a cakewalk. And you know what happens when thing 1 gets buffed. Cries of "THING 2 IS USELESS NOW WITHOUT BUFFS!" ring out from all corners of the game world. After thing 2 gets buffed, thing 3 is worthless. And when thing 3 gets buffed, thing 4 is worthless, et cetera until thing 1 is again worthless. I believe the common term for this is power creep, which we already see enough of in DDO. I would take a single nerf over a string of buffs any day.

Half-Orc needs to be brought more in line with existing races. Yes, they should be the premier melee race, but not by as much as they currently are.

[grodon9999]

Elf/Drow and Dorf Enhancements if nothing else are just WAY too expensive. On my fighter I pretty much had no choice, drop the D-Axes for Khopesh as I just couldn't afford the APs.

[CSFurious]

i have to laugh at the complaints about half-orcs

smart players have just been rolling up wf melees for a long time, was that overpowered?

all of the other races were already gimp for melee other than halflings for sneak attack & wf long before the half-orc

dwarves, elves & drow have been gimp melee for a long time, might as well throw human & half-elf in there now as well

half-orcs just give wf players something to look at for end-game

i still like wf the best because of the immunities & the healing from both arcane & divine, i may play half-orc to alleviate boredom but they are pretty ugly so i do not know yet

[theRolf]

/signed

my elven barb is fun and just getting started - not ready to TR

[azrael4h]

I think you mean 2.

Mobs in Epic do have higher ACs, so hitting on a 2 isn't possible anymore. My suggestion was to increase the DPS of these races by giving them higher to-hit than they get now.

Depending on your time zone, you'd see that I posted around 3-3:30am. You're lucky it was coherent enough to read. :P Epic also isn't the entire game, and some people don't care to sit and doze while autoattack hammers away on grossly inflated HD monsters with Immune:Everything tacked on; I'd rather play something else, thank you.

Actually I think that since Elves and Dwarves specialize, their bonuses should be better. Someone who spends all her time training with a Falchion is probably going to be a bit better using it than a someone who just likes to swing big things around.

Either cheaper to take, making them less of a hassle to fit into the build, or simply stronger damage bonuses would work and fit with this, IMO. However, HOs should gets bonuses when using tables as weapons.

No. Too much of the game is already a cakewalk. And you know what happens when thing 1 gets buffed. Cries of "THING 2 IS USELESS NOW WITHOUT BUFFS!" ring out from all corners of the game world. After thing 2 gets buffed, thing 3 is worthless. And when thing 3 gets buffed, thing 4 is worthless, et cetera until thing 1 is again worthless. I believe the common term for this is power creep, which we already see enough of in DDO. I would take a single nerf over a string of buffs any day.

Half-Orc needs to be brought more in line with existing races. Yes, they should be the premier melee race, but not by as much as they currently are.

The problem is that there should be a viable reason to take one race over another. This is not the case now. No they're not "useless" but they are far from balanced. Half Orc is balanced well with the other melee powerhouse, the Warforged. Even with the halved divine healing, the sheer number of immunities puts them on par. This makes HOs and WF good for melees. HOs are premier for dps, but not total survivability.

However, there is no viable reason to take an elf or drow over a halfling or human, which is where the problem comes in. Dwarves are better, by far, but they still should get a boost to their axe damage at least, as they are supposed to be a melee race. An extra +2 damage is not powercreep. For elves and drow, the only reason to run one is their butts are nice.

[QuantumFX]

Theoretically, they have Human Versatility, which provides up to a +5 damage boost, though it is incredibly inefficient and its efficacy is debatable.

Though that could change when they do their proposed balancing pass and have it give something like double strike percentages instead.

[Uska]

Buffing others races isnt a good idea just leads to mob inflation half-orcs just need to be toned down a bit.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Though that could change when they do their proposed balancing pass and have it give something like double strike percentages instead.

IMO they just need to remove the animation break it causes to activate boosts.