On Buffing Elves, Dwarves and Drow

[AylinIsAwesome]

No. Too much of the game is already a cakewalk. And you know what happens when thing 1 gets buffed. Cries of "THING 2 IS USELESS NOW WITHOUT BUFFS!" ring out from all corners of the game world. After thing 2 gets buffed, thing 3 is worthless. And when thing 3 gets buffed, thing 4 is worthless, et cetera until thing 1 is again worthless. I believe the common term for this is power creep, which we already see enough of in DDO. I would take a single nerf over a string of buffs any day.

Half-Orc needs to be brought more in line with existing races. Yes, they should be the premier melee race, but not by as much as they currently are.

Half-Orcs may have gotten too much. Doesn't change that Elves, Drow and Dwarves needed boosts before they were introduced.

Depending on your time zone, you'd see that I posted around 3-3:30am. You're lucky it was coherent enough to read. :P

I was posting at about the same time, I totally get what you mean.

Epic also isn't the entire game, and some people don't care to sit and doze while autoattack hammers away on grossly inflated HD monsters with Immune:Everything tacked on; I'd rather play something else, thank you.

True, though getting more attack bonuses will be attractive to some players.

Still need boosts in other ways too though.

Either cheaper to take, making them less of a hassle to fit into the build, or simply stronger damage bonuses would work and fit with this, IMO. However, HOs should gets bonuses when using tables as weapons.

Elf/Drow and Dorf Enhancements if nothing else are just WAY too expensive. On my fighter I pretty much had no choice, drop the D-Axes for Khopesh as I just couldn't afford the APs.

Would you two have any suggestions on what the new costs should be? 1/2 for the lines instead of 2/4? Perhaps 1/3?

[DrNuegebauer]

Just increase the Elf, Drow and Dwarf weapon lines to +4 damage and +4 to hit. Make the 'to hit' ones cost 1/2 APs.

There - fixed.

Oh - and give longswords and shortswords the 12% 'flurry of blows' speed for a monk who has selected the feats/ take the ninja line.


Perhaps also take away the weapon aptitude thing from Half Orcs? Or make it cost double that of a WF? Or make the Power Attack one cost double?

For me the biggest thing is BOTH the Aptitude AND the Power Attack thing. Better than removing one would be to double the AP cost of one line - which give WF some relevance.

[QuantumFX]

I hope this isn’t thread derail but I’ve always thought adding some enhancement chains that emulated various sub-types of elves would add interest to the race.

These enhancement chains are meant to help emulate various elven sub races. The reason they are giving +2 stats per tier to to represent the +2 to a stat that a subrace has in the D&D books and Turbine’s addition of Racial stat enhancements to DDO. You’ll notice that each subtype also gets a penalty to another stat to represent the penalties associated with the D&D books.

Elven Heritage: (Obviously only one heritage type can be taken.)

Gray Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to INT; -1 Feat penalty to STR
Gray Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to INT; -1 Feat penalty to STR. (Bringing the total bonuses to +4 INT/-2 STR)
Thoughts: This would give elven wizards a nice perk over drow. Drow would still maintain the edge on skill points though.

Wild Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to CON; -1 Feat penalty to INT; Qualifies for Racial Toughness III
Wild Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to CON -1 Feat penalty to INT; Qualifies for Racial Toughness IV. (Bringing the total bonuses to +4 CON/-2 INT)
Thoughts: OK, technically Wild elves don’t have a penalty to their CON but I was following a theme here! Another option could be a single 2 AP enhancement that has +2 CON/-2 INT and Qualifies the elf for Racial Toughness III and IV. The only other thing I don’t like is that the INT penalty wouldn’t be too much of a penalty as they still get the skill point before the penalty is applied.

Wood Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to STR; -1 Feat penalty to INT
Wood Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to STR; -1 Feat penalty to INT
(Bringing the total bonuses to +4 STR/-2 INT)
Thoughts: This would give DDO another race that can reach the same STR score as a healthy half-orc but would lose a bit of survivability. The only other thing I don’t like is that the INT penalty wouldn’t be too much of a penalty as they still get the skill point before the penalty is applied.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I hope this isn’t thread derail but I’ve always thought adding some enhancement chains that emulated various sub-types of elves would add interest to the race.

These enhancement chains are meant to help emulate various elven sub races. The reason they are giving +2 stats per tier to to represent the +2 to a stat that a subrace has in the D&D books and Turbine’s addition of Racial stat enhancements to DDO. You’ll notice that each subtype also gets a penalty to another stat to represent the penalties associated with the D&D books.

Elven Heritage: (Obviously only one heritage type can be taken.)

Gray Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to INT; -1 Feat penalty to STR
Gray Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to INT; -1 Feat penalty to STR. (Bringing the total bonuses to +4 INT/-2 STR)
Thoughts: This would give elven wizards a nice perk over drow. Drow would still maintain the edge on skill points though.

Wild Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to CON; -1 Feat penalty to INT; Qualifies for Racial Toughness III
Wild Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to CON -1 Feat penalty to INT; Qualifies for Racial Toughness IV. (Bringing the total bonuses to +4 CON/-2 INT)
Thoughts: OK, technically Wild elves don’t have a penalty to their CON but I was following a theme here! Another option could be a single 2 AP enhancement that has +2 CON/-2 INT and Qualifies the elf for Racial Toughness III and IV. The only other thing I don’t like is that the INT penalty wouldn’t be too much of a penalty as they still get the skill point before the penalty is applied.

Wood Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to STR; -1 Feat penalty to INT
Wood Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to STR; -1 Feat penalty to INT
(Bringing the total bonuses to +4 STR/-2 INT)
Thoughts: This would give DDO another race that can reach the same STR score as a healthy half-orc but would lose a bit of survivability. The only other thing I don’t like is that the INT penalty wouldn’t be too much of a penalty as they still get the skill point before the penalty is applied.

Grey Elf sounds a little too focused to me. I agree that Elves could be a little more viable as Wizards, but +INT/-STR is not a bad tradeoff on a Wizard. Sounds a little too good.


For the others, another score besides INT should take the hit. INT is only important to one class, and Elves of that class would take Grey anyway.


I'm not sold on Grey though, but I would like to see Elves get something to make up for that dreadful -2 CON. =\

[azrael4h]

Half-Orcs may have gotten too much. Doesn't change that Elves, Drow and Dwarves needed boosts before they were introduced.

I disagree that Dwarves need a huge boost, as they're solid for a melee, and the best F2P race arguably. HOs and WF should have something extra, as they are pay to play. But not +11 damage extra, with means to boost it further. I don't think HOs are any more powerful than Warforged, again which have numerous immunities making them less gear/class dependent. They may be more capable of DPS, but WF can survive longer and ignore more things that would lay the HO low. So weakening the HO is no where needed to give WF relevance.

True, though getting more attack bonuses will be attractive to some players.

Still need boosts in other ways too though.

Would you two have any suggestions on what the new costs should be? 1/2 for the lines instead of 2/4? Perhaps 1/3?

+4 damage boost at current AP cost, the attack bonus boost line reduced to 1/2 costs?

And I like the thought that we can pick up racial variants, rather than just the generic 3.5e 'Elf'. "Red Elf needs food badly!" (I always let the commie die. :P) Though I seem to remember one that took a CHA hit instead of CON, but was otherwise the same. I'll have to look later, when I have more time.

+4/-2 may be a bit too powerful, unless it's expensive, and if it's too expensive no one will want to spend the AP. Should be in line with 3.5 rules, +2/-2, no more than 2AP per tier. 4ap for +1 to a stat isn't all that grand; I never take the regular enhancements like that either, just the first tier to even out that particular stat. Since there's a penalty involved, it shouldn't bee imbalanced with the regular stat boost lines. Should also open up, where applicable, 1AP martial feats based on those variants. IE Valenar Elves would be able to spend an ap to get Scimitar or Falchion proficiency.

Drow are the biggest issue, as they're an earned/pay to play race, which is weaker than any of the free ones. For 32 point build, Elf is better, for 28 point build, I think I calculated that only Elf was worse, save for three classes. In most cases, I'd rather have a 28pt Human, Dwarf, or Halfling than a Drow.

Drow SR needs to become passive, say 11+1/level instead. Currently, the only time you'd have SR save you is if you run Waterworks with a level 20 who took all the SR enhancements. My Drow Bard has never had her SR do anything. It needs to be strong enough to provide a clear benefit to taking the race, and one which helps counterbalance the CON penalty.

Maybe change what racial weapons they get, dropping the Shortsword and Shuriken for something else. Maybe Bastard Sword, so it'd be something other than vendor trash. Just go with whatever Ebberron Lore has for them that'd fit. Maybe give them the Falchion for free. Slightly more common, and definitely more useful.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I disagree that Dwarves need a huge boost, as they're solid for a melee, and the best F2P race arguably. HOs and WF should have something extra, as they are pay to play. But not +11 damage extra, with means to boost it further. I don't think HOs are any more powerful than Warforged, again which have numerous immunities making them less gear/class dependent. They may be more capable of DPS, but WF can survive longer and ignore more things that would lay the HO low. So weakening the HO is no where needed to give WF relevance.

The thing in my mind which says that Dwarves need a boost is that I can only thing of one thing that Dwarves get that neither Half-Orcs nor Warforged get: a bonus to saves against spells.

I really think they need a little more than that.

+4 damage boost at current AP cost, the attack bonus boost line reduced to 1/2 costs?

And I like the thought that we can pick up racial variants, rather than just the generic 3.5e 'Elf'. "Red Elf needs food badly!" (I always let the commie die. :P) Though I seem to remember one that took a CHA hit instead of CON, but was otherwise the same. I'll have to look later, when I have more time.

+4/-2 may be a bit too powerful, unless it's expensive, and if it's too expensive no one will want to spend the AP. Should be in line with 3.5 rules, +2/-2, no more than 2AP per tier. 4ap for +1 to a stat isn't all that grand; I never take the regular enhancements like that either, just the first tier to even out that particular stat. Since there's a penalty involved, it shouldn't bee imbalanced with the regular stat boost lines. Should also open up, where applicable, 1AP martial feats based on those variants. IE Valenar Elves would be able to spend an ap to get Scimitar or Falchion proficiency.

Drow are the biggest issue, as they're an earned/pay to play race, which is weaker than any of the free ones. For 32 point build, Elf is better, for 28 point build, I think I calculated that only Elf was worse, save for three classes. In most cases, I'd rather have a 28pt Human, Dwarf, or Halfling than a Drow.

Drow SR needs to become passive, say 11+1/level instead. Currently, the only time you'd have SR save you is if you run Waterworks with a level 20 who took all the SR enhancements. My Drow Bard has never had her SR do anything. It needs to be strong enough to provide a clear benefit to taking the race, and one which helps counterbalance the CON penalty.

Maybe change what racial weapons they get, dropping the Shortsword and Shuriken for something else. Maybe Bastard Sword, so it'd be something other than vendor trash. Just go with whatever Ebberron Lore has for them that'd fit. Maybe give them the Falchion for free. Slightly more common, and definitely more useful.

Yes, Drow are currently the weakest race in the game, which is funny as they're the only race VIP doesn't get for free.

I like Drow getting a bonus to SR based on level, but it should be more than just 11 + level, as that won't stop anything at all in Epics. The Divine spell also needs a boost. Drow blocking spells maybe 10% of the time and the Divine version 15% of the time would make both worth it for me.


I too would like to see Elves get more lines, but a +4 INT/-2 STR line is a bit over the top. It's a cool idea, but the drawbacks to each line should be something to need to think about before taking it.

[azrael4h]

The thing in my mind which says that Dwarves need a boost is that I can only thing of one thing that Dwarves get that neither Half-Orcs nor Warforged get: a bonus to saves against spells.

I really think they need a little more than that.






Yes, Drow are currently the weakest race in the game, which is funny as they're the only race VIP doesn't get for free.

I like Drow getting a bonus to SR based on level, but it should be more than just 11 + level, as that won't stop anything at all in Epics. The Divine spell also needs a boost. Drow blocking spells maybe 10% of the time and the Divine version 15% of the time would make both worth it for me.


I too would like to see Elves get more lines, but a +4 INT/-2 STR line is a bit over the top. It's a cool idea, but the drawbacks to each line should be something to need to think about before taking it.

Well, Drow can easily be earned in under a week. Made me regret purchasing them outright, at the report of a guildie who loves playing elves and drow. Don't worry, he's a caster at heart, not a CG ranger using twin scimitars and a panther animal companion. At any rate, with my limited play time, I was able to pull my Monk up to 300 favor in under a week. Another 100 would mean going back and doing some low-level, easy quests on elite. Many of which I skipped (vet build).

I agree, though I won't claim to know (or care to know) the exact numbers needed to make it hit a 10% blocking effect. I just threw 11+1/lvl out there at random.

I can see a certain person crying about nerfing Drow SR if it got too high, due to his spells not working in PvP and it "not being fair".

I don't play or like Dwarves unless they're named Urist and routinely flood the plains with magma to deal with the pesky elves coming to trade with them. Yet I can recall a bonus to balance, search, bonus to saves vs poison effects, additional racial armor mastery line (stacks with the identical Fighter line), axe damage and attack bonuses (not just the 2 handed axe, but all axes, thrown and melee), racial exotic feat for those with martial feats already, Cleric-only SP enhancements and a beard.

+2/-2 should be the standard; no core race is different. If it has a +2 bonus, there's a -2 penalty somewhere in the stats. Since it has a penalty associated, the ap costs should remain in line with the racial and class stat enhancement lines (2/4) unless they have additional effects.

[orakio]

Personally i feel like the elf/drow/dwarf damage and attack enhancement lines should be 1ap per rank so 1/2 cost. Also lower tactics lines to 1/2/3 ap cost. I would also lower the dwarf armor mastery to 1/2/3 and consider rolling the halfing guile and cunning into 1 enhancement line although that may be a bit much.

What i would really like to see is enhancement lines boosting non-melee aspects of some of these races or giving somewhat circumstantial but fun bonuses.

example.

Elf/Drow metamagic enhancement lines: Elf improved maximize (or other metamagic) 2/4 ap: your maximized spells cost 3/6 less mana per cast.
Elf/Drow advanced casting: 2/4 ap your <insert spell school or all spell schools> spells have a +1/2 added to the dc.
Halfling midget fighting: 1/2/3 ap. Your experience fighting goblinoids/giants/orcs allows you to deal an additional +1/2/3 damage to those targets.

Not every race needs to be equivalent melee strength if you would just play to the other aspects of the game. Elves have typically had more of an arcane background and some enhancements that play toward this but don't address the more commonly looked for aspects of enhancements. In addition adding situationally strong enhancements with cheap costs is a fun way to add flavor and allow things to excel in some situations without getting totally out of hand and being mandatory enhancements.

I could also see enhancement lines allowing partial fortification bypass for any of the weaker races now that it is becoming more common with the jade strike and opportunist abilities. Adjust other races in ways that don't apply just to make them a better THF or TWF barb/fighter.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Well, Drow can easily be earned in under a week. Made me regret purchasing them outright, at the report of a guildie who loves playing elves and drow. Don't worry, he's a caster at heart, not a CG ranger using twin scimitars and a panther animal companion. At any rate, with my limited play time, I was able to pull my Monk up to 300 favor in under a week. Another 100 would mean going back and doing some low-level, easy quests on elite. Many of which I skipped (vet build).

They are easily earned, but my point was that seeing as how they aren't free outright, they need to not be the absolute worst race in the game. Guess I should have just said that instead.

I agree, though I won't claim to know (or care to know) the exact numbers needed to make it hit a 10% blocking effect. I just threw 11+1/lvl out there at random.

I think (not 100% sure) that mobs in Epic are caster level 35, so 37 would be 10%. Of course, that's just based on their CR level, so it's probably not that, but I bet it wouldn't be far off.

I can see a certain person crying about nerfing Drow SR if it got too high, due to his spells not working in PvP and it "not being fair".

Oh I can too, but that person would need to learn that this isn't a PvP game.

I don't play or like Dwarves unless they're named Urist and routinely flood the plains with magma to deal with the pesky elves coming to trade with them. Yet I can recall a bonus to balance, search, bonus to saves vs poison effects, additional racial armor mastery line (stacks with the identical Fighter line), axe damage and attack bonuses (not just the 2 handed axe, but all axes, thrown and melee), racial exotic feat for those with martial feats already, Cleric-only SP enhancements and a beard.

The main problem with Dwarves is that now, anything a Dwarf could do Half-Orc or Warforged can do better, except the armour mastery line (I'd forgotten about that earlier). Their enhancements are just too expensive is the main problem.

+2/-2 should be the standard; no core race is different. If it has a +2 bonus, there's a -2 penalty somewhere in the stats. Since it has a penalty associated, the ap costs should remain in line with the racial and class stat enhancement lines (2/4) unless they have additional effects.

Agreed.

Personally i feel like the elf/drow/dwarf damage and attack enhancement lines should be 1ap per rank so 1/2 cost. Also lower tactics lines to 1/2/3 ap cost. I would also lower the dwarf armor mastery to 1/2/3 and consider rolling the halfing guile and cunning into 1 enhancement line although that may be a bit much.

I think all of those are good ideas, except the combining Guile and Cunning. The first three levels I think are really good, just the last level gets so expensive. If there was a reduction in price for the last level only I think it'd be better (though it would need to come after or at the same time the other races get a boost).

What i would really like to see is enhancement lines boosting non-melee aspects of some of these races or giving somewhat circumstantial but fun bonuses.

example.

Elf/Drow metamagic enhancement lines: Elf improved maximize (or other metamagic) 2/4 ap: your maximized spells cost 3/6 less mana per cast.
Elf/Drow advanced casting: 2/4 ap your <insert spell school or all spell schools> spells have a +1/2 added to the dc.
Halfling midget fighting: 1/2/3 ap. Your experience fighting goblinoids/giants/orcs allows you to deal an additional +1/2/3 damage to those targets.

I like fun stuff, though I doubt they'd give advanced casting as they seem to be reserving DC boosts to PrEs. Elf would also need something cool over Drow in order for there to be a little competition there.

Also I laughed at midget fighting. :P It seems more Dwarvish to me though as they already get bonuses against Orcs and Goblins. Keep the name, but remove the damage bonuses from those mob types. Text could be something like, "your experience fighting much taller enemies has taught you to strike at their vital areas. You deal an extra +1/2/3 damage to Giant-type mobs", just to make it funnier.

Not every race needs to be equivalent melee strength if you would just play to the other aspects of the game. Elves have typically had more of an arcane background and some enhancements that play toward this but don't address the more commonly looked for aspects of enhancements. In addition adding situationally strong enhancements with cheap costs is a fun way to add flavor and allow things to excel in some situations without getting totally out of hand and being mandatory enhancements.

Since HP is so important in this game and arcanes already have d4 hit dice, Elves don't really get much of a bonus to being Wizards as Drow get better DCs with the same HP and Warforged get so much more HP and can self-heal. If Elves got an additional HP line available only through being an arcane (instead of more SP) that could work along with some improved metamagics enhancements.

I could also see enhancement lines allowing partial fortification bypass for any of the weaker races now that it is becoming more common with the jade strike and opportunist abilities. Adjust other races in ways that don't apply just to make them a better THF or TWF barb/fighter.

Actually, this gave me a great idea. Why do the melee lines for Drow, Dwarf and Elf just need to be +2 Attack/Damage? Couldn't they get some extra bonuses that only apply when wielding racial weapons?

Example:

Dwarven Axe Damage 1: You have trained long and hard using all varieties of axes. When using an axe, you gain +1 damage and and the DCs of your combat feats is increased by 1 (stacks with Tactics line)
Dwarven Axe Damage 2: You are now a master with any axe. You gain an additional +1 damage when using an axe, and additional +1 to combat feat DCs, and gain the "limbchopper" ability.


What do you think?