Redo THF animation while moving; give us back glancing blows

[Ellistran]

Make THF and TWF feats the same. Remove splash damage from game. If you wanna damage nearby targets take the cleave feats. Your welcome.

[Aesop]

Make THF and TWF feats the same. Remove splash damage from game. If you wanna damage nearby targets take the cleave feats. Your welcome.

In what way would you make them the same?

[Aaxeyu]

Remove splash damage from game. If you wanna damage nearby targets take the cleave feats. Your welcome.

I'd go with that. Alot less complicated.

[Ellistran]

In what way would you make them the same?

Make the THF feats the same as the current TWF feats.

TWF, Imp TWF..etc adds X ammount chance for dbbl strike

THF, Imp THF...etc adds X ammount chance for dbbl strike

[Aesop]

Make the THF feats the same as the current TWF feats.

TWF, Imp TWF..etc adds X ammount chance for dbbl strike

THF, Imp THF...etc adds X ammount chance for dbbl strike

assuming x is the same that would cripple TWF making it drastically inferior to THF because at that point THF would still have the static benefit of strength and a half and greater Power Attack effect while TWF would lose all of its benefits including weapon procs and other static bonuses

Aesop

[Aesop]

Really making THF and TWF the "same" wouldn't work

maybe instead of Glancing Blows make it Awesome Blow where it does greater damage as single target this could again be proc related granting a chance to connect with greater effect and the better you become the more often and for even greater effect does this ability apply


THF basic 30% chance to inflict 25% more damage
THF Feat +10% Proc +15% damage
ITHF +10% Proc +15% damage
GTHF +10% Proc +15% damage

Barb Cap +10% Proc +10% Damage

or some such ... I'm late though so I'l come back in a couple hours

Aesop

[Aaxeyu]

Really making THF and TWF the "same" wouldn't work

maybe instead of Glancing Blows make it Awesome Blow where it does greater damage as single target this could again be proc related granting a chance to connect with greater effect and the better you become the more often and for even greater effect does this ability apply


THF basic 30% chance to inflict 25% more damage
THF Feat +10% Proc +15% damage
ITHF +10% Proc +15% damage
GTHF +10% Proc +15% damage

Barb Cap +10% Proc +10% Damage

or some such ... I'm late though so I'l come back in a couple hours

Aesop

Well, you could make glancing blows indentical to offhand attacks and main hand attacks for both styles equal.
But that would be boring IMO.

[krud]

yeah cause as it stands now I believe Cleave and great cleave actually reduce DPS

Aesop

Alternatlively if they want to keep the cleave animation, they can increase cleave to do a 360 attack. With great cleave add a doublestrike chance to each attack roll during the cleave animation. Whirlwind could add an even greater doublestrike chance to each attack roll (would stack with great cleave). You could increase the percentages for THF and even more for S&B.

[mediocresurgeon]

To Aaxeyu:
This is not a "TWF Should Be Better Than THF" thread. This is a "Fix THF To Be Effective Again" thread. I would love to hear you express an opinion other than "You're wrong! Logic fail!" If you have something constructive to say, please say it and be done. I mean this in the most respectful way possible.

To everyone else:
Thanks for the lively discussion of how THF can be fixed! Hopefully we'll see a "Read By A Dev" post soon.

[KillEveryone]

OP...I agree.

[Aesop]

Well, you could make glancing blows indentical to offhand attacks and main hand attacks for both styles equal.
But that would be boring IMO.

Additionally it wouldn't make sense.


going back to what I was saying before.


Instead of Glancing Blows make it Awesome Blow have it do straight extra damage (minus the Effects parts).

I mean when you think of swinging around a big weapon you think of a shot that shatters bone and cleaves foes entwain.

You think of that more than someone cutting into 5 guys at the same time... though that is thought of as well

so just to complicate things



THF Basic (ie Proficiency in the weapon) Chance to Proc and Awesome Blow 10% extra damage +20%

THF Feat +10% Proc +20% Damage
ITHF +15% Proc +20% Damage
GTHF +15% Proc +20% Damage

FB 1 +5% Proc
FB 2 +5% Damage
FB 3 +5% Proc +5% Damage

Barb Cap +5% Proc +5% Damage

GWA 1 +2% Damage
GWA 2 +2% Damage
GWA 3 +2% Damage

so that's 65% Proc Chance of doing an extra 101% Damage in a shot... so effectively any given shot could do double damage

Kensai may have similar effects built into it for weapons as well... maybe have it a bit more customized though... perhaps a Kensai Spec'd in Great Axe has higher increased Damage than Proc Ratewhile a Falchioon has a higher Proc Rate but less bonus to damage... it would make Kensai a more interesting PrE in that regard (other weapons could have unique aspects added to them as well like Bastard Swords and DAs... and other less used weapons as well as a way to make them more desireable for certain concepts)... unlikely I know but hey I'm just spouting off stuff

now to add to that a little bit you could toss in a change to Cleave and Great Cleave (and whirlwind attack maybe)

Give Cleave Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack (and other similar effects if they exist) a Proc Rate (even in addition to the current use) to apply Glancing Blows... actually having it a toggle may be better

A Glancing Blow shouldn't happen on every swing because that's not how you would legitimately fight a combat any way. weapons deflect and get stuck and rarely are enemies so kind as to actually stand in a conveinent arc waiting for you to swing in just the right way...


so

No Feat 0% Glancing Blow Proc 0% Glancing Blow damage
Cleave +10% Proc +10% damage
Great Cleave +10% Proc +10% damage
Whirwind Attack +20% Proc +20% damage


so if by some chance you took all threee (which means you'd need Dodge Mobility SPring Attack Combat Expertise POwer Attack Cleave Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack menaing 8 feat) would net Glancing Blows with 40% Proc Rate doing 40% damage


I dunno

I'm a little loopy right now but this (with the right nubers plugged into the right places) could make for interesting stuffs

Aesop

[Zachski]

For the record, just to bring back something because Aax DIDN'T address it (note that I am not saying TWF shouldn't be superior. I am saying that THF should be competitive)

110% dps is significant, 10% dps is insignificant.

That's the difference, and why something can be both significant and insignificant.

Really, saying that it has to be one or the other is like saying that Resist Fire has to be significant or insignificant. It's useful when you need it, but useless when you're in a quest where no monsters or traps or anything deals fire damage. There is a situation where it is significant, and a situation where it isn't significant. It can be both significant and insignificant. Or are you going to say "No, it has to be one or the other. It reduces all incoming fire damage by 10 in both situations, so it has to be either significant or insignificant"? Because that's the logic you've been using.

On the monster you're focusing on, glancing blows are significant.

On the monsters you're not focusing on, glancing blows are insignificant.

In any case, here's a solution idea I have: Make it so that glancing blows have a chance to proc on EVERY attack in the animation, just like TWF off-hand attacks. That way, staying still actually has some benefit. As far as running animation goes... umm, yeah, fix the attack animation speed issue and put glancing blows back. Like the TC said.

[Monkey_Archer]

This is also not to outweigh the importance of weapon availability: right now, dps is overly biased towards thf with ultimate equipment due to how much better ESOS is than its comparative 1handed (echaosblade) counterparts. In optimal gear, nearly every class is in fact a better dpser as thf right now, overriding even class and pre based differences, due to the weapon.

Thats not quite true....
eSOS is THE best THF weapon in the game, but only against low fort, low DR targets.
eChaosblades, while good weapons, are not the best single handed weapon in the game, so comparing the two and claiming bias towards THF is not exactly fair.

These things are always going to be more significant, IMO, than the raw differences between thf and twf going forward, which makes it totally ok for twf to be slightly superior when everything else is equal: its unlikely to be equal, and 8 build points is a -really- big deal: it leads to most twf being 3 hit behind (since they rarely can also afford 18 str), and its just a big deal in general.

All things equal, TWF should be, and currently is, superior. I dont think anyone is arguing against that.
I completely disagree about stat points though. Starting with 8 dex on any melee, regardless of weapon style, is a bad idea. This goes back to the old "you do no dps if your dead" argument. So the actual difference in build points is usually not 8, but more like 2-4.
Other then paladins, any other melee class has no trouble starting with 18 str and 15 dex...

I know where your coming from, but the only class that can claim THF to be superior due to weapon availability and stat allocation is a pure paladin with a couple eSOSs upgraded for each DR breaking situation...

[Aaxeyu]

To Aaxeyu:
This is not a "TWF Should Be Better Than THF" thread. This is a "Fix THF To Be Effective Again" thread. I would love to hear you express an opinion other than "You're wrong! Logic fail!" If you have something constructive to say, please say it and be done. I mean this in the most respectful way possible.

My opinion is that glancing blows on nearby targets should not be completely ignored.

[Aaxeyu]

For the record, just to bring back something because Aax DIDN'T address it (note that I am not saying TWF shouldn't be superior. I am saying that THF should be competitive)

110% dps is significant, 10% dps is insignificant.

That's the difference, and why something can be both significant and insignificant.

Really, saying that it has to be one or the other is like saying that Resist Fire has to be significant or insignificant. It's useful when you need it, but useless when you're in a quest where no monsters or traps or anything deals fire damage. There is a situation where it is significant, and a situation where it isn't significant. It can be both significant and insignificant. Or are you going to say "No, it has to be one or the other. It reduces all incoming fire damage by 10 in both situations, so it has to be either significant or insignificant"? Because that's the logic you've been using.

On the monster you're focusing on, glancing blows are significant.

On the monsters you're not focusing on, glancing blows are insignificant.

The discussion was not whether glancing blows can be significant in one situation and insignificant in another.
So try again.

[Aesop]

My opinion is that glancing blows on nearby targets should not be completely ignored.

but they shouldn't be completely negated when moving though... wouldn't you say?

as it stands now while moving there are no glancing blows...

since that is all that the THF Feats actually do doesn't it completely negate them being useful in a large portion of the game.

We are constantly moving, readjusting position etc

Shouldn't THF still have its advantages in those situations.

and if not then shouldn't TWF also lose their advantages while moving?

[Aaxeyu]

but they shouldn't be completely negated when moving though... wouldn't you say?

as it stands now while moving there are no glancing blows...

since that is all that the THF Feats actually do doesn't it completely negate them being useful in a large portion of the game.

We are constantly moving, readjusting position etc

Shouldn't THF still have its advantages in those situations.

No, I wouldn't say that. One could argue that it adds tactic to THF gameplay.

and if not then shouldn't TWF also lose their advantages while moving?

Don't make the assumtion that THF and TWF are equal in the first place.

[Monkey_Archer]

Should THF be overpowered while stationary to make up for being underpowered while moving?

[DevilButcher]

This might be going off topic but when I think big TH weps I think SMASH!!

They should have a scaling improved crit rate as they go up the THF chain...

Maybe a hidden second x2 DMG multiplier that is a percentage chance to go off per swing.
No Feat – 10% x2 Multiplier to DMG
THF – 20% x2 Multiplier to DMG
ITHF – 30% x2 Multiplier to DMG
GTHF – 40% x2 Multiplier to DMG

That way if you luck out and get a Crit X3 and the THF X2 DMG your looking at HUGE damage.

[Aaxeyu]

Should THF be overpowered while stationary to make up for being underpowered while moving?

Why do you think THF be underpowered while moving? Why do you hate THF?

EDIT: