Redo THF animation while moving; give us back glancing blows

[mediocresurgeon]

Assumptions:
Glancing blows were removed from the THF fighting style (after 3-4 years!) in order to discourage players from using a faster, unintended animation cycle to generate extra damage against single targets. This is commonly known as "twitching."

Facts:
Players move around while attacking. We fight highly mobile opponents, dodge rays and arrows, and move to flank our enemies.

The Problem:
THF characters lose between 16%-22% of their damage, on top of (a) losing the progressively higher attack bonus granted by using the full attack chain and (b) taking an additional -4 penalty on all attacks.

Two Weapon Fighting does not receive this penalty, making it (once again) the dominant fighting style of almost every character build. This movement penalty decreases, rather than increases, the amount of viable character style options available to us.

Solution:
Redo the animation for attacking while moving while swinging with a two-handed weapon. Make sure the rate of attack is close or identical to the rate of attack while standing still. Give us back glancing blows while moving if the character has the Greater Two handed Fighting feat. This will discourage players from using the faster attack cycle (since it won't exist anymore) and won't punish players for fully participating in the active, dynamic combat of DDO.

[Cetus]

Well I just posted this suggestion in the other THF thread, but it is more relevant here:

I believe this would be a simpler solution than reworking the animation:


Suggestion for GTHF:

Greater Two Handed Fighting

Your experience with a two handed weapon grows. You are able to land glancing blows more frequently in later parts of your attack chain. Glancing blows gain an additional 10% to damage and an additional 3% chance to trigger special effects. In addition, this ability enables the wielder to land glancing blows while moving, but the damage is reduced by 50%, after all modifiers have been applied.

The damage reduction of twitched glances versus auto-attack glances evens out the dps with either style; this will allow the freedom to melee however you like. The versatility in controlling your character while chasing a mob or moving around the battlefield without compromising your damage output is more fun. Not just standing there autoattacking to make use of these feats.

[Aaxeyu]

Assumptions:
Glancing blows were removed from the THF fighting style (after 3-4 years!) in order to discourage players from using a faster, unintended animation cycle to generate extra damage against single targets. This is commonly known as "twitching."

Facts:
Players move around while attacking. We fight highly mobile opponents, dodge rays and arrows, and move to flank our enemies.

The Problem:
THF characters lose between 16%-22% of their damage, on top of (a) losing the progressively higher attack bonus granted by using the full attack chain and (b) taking an additional -4 penalty on all attacks.

Two Weapon Fighting does not receive this penalty, making it (once again) the dominant fighting style of almost every character build. This movement penalty decreases, rather than increases, the amount of viable character style options available to us.

Solution:
Redo the animation for attacking while moving while swinging with a two-handed weapon. Make sure the rate of attack is close or identical to the rate of attack while standing still. Give us back glancing blows while moving if the character has the Greater Two handed Fighting feat. This will discourage players from using the faster attack cycle (since it won't exist anymore) and won't punish players for fully participating in the active, dynamic combat of DDO.

But TWF can't attack multiple mobs at the same time.

[Cetus]

But TWF can't attack multiple mobs at the same time.

this whole multiple mob thing became a weaker argument as twitching became integrally incorporated into a two handers playstyle. When you break the attack chain the swing arc is reduced to a target-directional attack. Nobody really tries to effectively kill several targets with one twitch animation, its usually go kill monsterA go to monsterB right next to A etc...


Which is why I think my suggestion in the other post in this thread for GTHF would work.

[mediocresurgeon]

But TWF can't attack multiple mobs at the same time.

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought. Please explain?

[justagame]

But TWF can't attack multiple mobs at the same time.

Of course, not, TWF has it's own benefit. Likewise THF doesn't get offhand attacks. I don't get why your point is an issue.

To me, it's simple:

The main benefit to THF is glancing blows (unless you're counting an extra 5 from PA and a few more points from STR). You don't get this benefit at all if moving at all. If you're moving, your damage is essentially S&B with a higher STR bonus, and 5 more from PA.

The main benefit to TWF is offhand attacks. You get these whether moving or not.

[Aaxeyu]

this whole multiple mob thing became a weaker argument as twitching became integrally incorporated into a two handers playstyle. When you break the attack chain the swing arc is reduced to a target-directional attack. Nobody really tries to effectively kill several targets with one twitch animation, its usually go kill monsterA go to monsterB right next to A etc...


Which is why I think my suggestion in the other post in this thread for GTHF would work.

You still got glancing blows before, and they did hit targets near your primary target...
As it is now, THF chooses between mobility and damage against multiple mobs.
Sure their single target DPS suffers too, but that is not a bad thing right now.

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought. Please explain?

You were saying that because TWF did not get just this penalty, it became the better style, just as if they were equal in every other aspect in the first place.

IMO TWF should be better than THF, because it costs more.

Of course, not, TWF has it's own benefit. Likewise THF doesn't get offhand attacks. I don't get why your point is an issue.

To me, it's simple:

The main benefit to THF is glancing blows (unless you're counting an extra 5 from PA and a few more points from STR). You don't get this benefit at all if moving at all. If you're moving, your damage is essentially S&B with a higher STR bonus, and 5 more from PA.

The main benefit to TWF is offhand attacks. You get these whether moving or not.

1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA is not a small benefit. If it were, then I guess your post would have made sense. But it doesn't-

[Cetus]

You still got glancing blows before, and they did hit targets near your primary target...
As it is now, THF chooses between mobility and damage against multiple mobs.
Sure their single target DPS suffers too, but that is not a bad thing right now.



You were saying that because TWF did not get just this penalty, it became the better style, just as if they were equal in every other aspect in the first place.

IMO TWF should be better than THF, because it costs more.



1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA is not a small benefit. If it were, then I guess your post would have made sense. But it doesn't-

Glancing blows should proc on your main target when swinging a THF weapon, whether you are moving or you're standing still. Just lowering the damage of the twitch glances would put the dps with either play style on an even ground.

And what kind of damage against multiple mobs are you talking about? 20-30 points a glance on EPIC targets?

I don't want to turn this into a TWF vs THF thread, but I disagree that TWF should be "better" because it costs more. They should both excel in their own situations, but multiple mob hits doesn't justify. If I'm running epic, my occasional glance on an extra target with ten thousand hp doesn't mean squat. When they release a feat called "multidirectional targetting" where my damage modifers are rolled as an AoE, then we'll talk.

[Aaxeyu]

I don't want to turn this into a TWF vs THF thread, but I disagree that TWF should be "better" because it costs more. They should both excel in their own situations, but multiple mob hits doesn't justify.

That's too bad, because that is "their" situation.

[Cetus]

That's too bad, because that is "their" situation.

lol

I'm assuming that you don't play a THF do you? Otherwise you wouldn't so easily say.."thats too bad." Good attitude!

Anyway, back on topic:

My main point is this, If the GTWF feat would allow glancing blows while moving at half the auto-attack glance damage, after all modifiers have been applied; it would evenly cover 100% of all THF situations. Whether the player chooses to chase a mob or auto-attack a shroud portal, the damage due to glancing blows is not compromised. The x% attack speed increased by twitching is countered by the 50% reduction in glancing blow damage. So, no matter what situation you find yourself in, your precious feats are always working to your benefit.

Now, if THF'ers "perk" over TWF is considered to be the fact that multiple targets can be damaged at once, perhaps the developers should look into a more effective way to implement AoE damage off a two hander other than just normal glances, which are completely ineffective at damaging nearby enemies, ESPECIALLY on epic- its just a joke, and clearly noone relies on it.

[PopeJual]

1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA is not a small benefit. If it were, then I guess your post would have made sense. But it doesn't-

TWF also gets 1.5 damage from Strength and double damage from PA.

You get the 1x strength damage on your main hand and 0.5 Strength damage from your off hand.

You get one Power Attack damage from your main hand and one Power Attack Damage from your off hand.

All of your TWF attacks' To Hit are reduced by 5 with Power Attack just like all of your THF attacks To Hit are reduced by 5 with Power Attack.

[PopeJual]

Glancing blows should proc on your main target when swinging a THF weapon, whether you are moving or you're standing still. Just lowering the damage of the twitch glances would put the dps with either play style on an even ground.

Either that or make TWF attacks not proc any off-hand attacks while moving...



(Dear Turbine, please understand that this is an attempt to help people understand why glancing-blows-while-moving is fair and balanced and not a request for a horrifying nerf to TWF.)

[redoubt]

/signed

and proud to have hydro on my server!

[Aranticus]

i'd prefer having glancing to the end part of the sequence and twitching still available. come the new update this means that both will have similar dps output

ps: anyone every tried running and swinging a greataxe at the same time?

[jcTharin]

i have recently made a THF toon, and i have been trying to stay still when attacking so that i can get the extra damage. But i cant! mobs are always moving around and i need to chase them down. this isn't like other games where the monster plays fair and just stands there in toe-to-toe combat.

the fact that you need to run around the battlefield is one of this games highlights. dont change it. i like it that way.

Please disregard post. =]

you guys know that you can delete posts don't you?

go to edit

go advanced

delete option is at the top of the page

[Cetus]

i have recently made a THF toon, and i have been trying to stay still when attacking so that i can get the extra damage. But i cant! mobs are always moving around and i need to chase them down. this isn't like other games where the monster plays fair and just stands there in toe-to-toe combat.

the fact that you need to run around the battlefield is one of this games highlights. dont change it. i like it that way.



you guys know that you can delete posts don't you?

go to edit

go advanced

delete option is at the top of the page

oh? never knew that, thanks

[Monkey_Archer]

IMO TWF should be better than THF, because it costs more.

Assuming dps is equal, TWF is better then THF. At least at endgame it is...

THF gets AOE damage and +2 to hit.
TWF gets double weapon effects, ~20% more auto crit damage, and the ability to use a tactics weapon in your offhand

For non-epic endgame the double vorpal effects etc easily outweigh the AOE damage...
In epic endgame weighted offhand and +20% auto crit damage easily outweigh AOE damage.
On named fights none of these advantages matter so its all just how much dps you do.

Why again should THF loose ~20% while moving?

[Aaxeyu]

Why again should THF loose ~20% while moving?

Because they can gain way more than that by attacking multiple mobs.
Look, it might not be the best solution, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

[Aaxeyu]

TWF also gets 1.5 damage from Strength and double damage from PA.

You get the 1x strength damage on your main hand and 0.5 Strength damage from your off hand.

You get one Power Attack damage from your main hand and one Power Attack Damage from your off hand.

All of your TWF attacks' To Hit are reduced by 5 with Power Attack just like all of your THF attacks To Hit are reduced by 5 with Power Attack.

yea, and what's your point again? That THF without glancing is bad damage because they "only" get 1.5 str and double PA?
Same can be said for TWF.

[mediocresurgeon]

yea, and what's your point again? That THF without glancing is bad damage because they "only" get 1.5 str and double PA?
Same can be said for TWF.

TWF gets twice as many weapon effects (such as Holy or Lightning Strike) and get double the benefit of DPS buffs like Warchanter songs and Prayer.

ps: anyone every tried running and swinging a greataxe at the same time?

Of course! Doesn't every household own one?