U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

[Cetus]

A fighter can get those hp in return if they want. If they took the feats as fighter only feats it will just take more reworking, but they can do it. They get 18 feats, so swapping feats out has always been a pain for fighters, but this doesnt start with the proposed nerf.

You have no idea what you are talking about in this statement with regards to offensive fighter builds.

[Chai]

You have no idea what you are talking about in this statement with regards to offensive fighter builds.

Actually I know exactly what I am talking about. I just dont agree with your absolutist statement that fighters cant rework their toon to drop feats and take others. Most fighters will take those feats as fighter only feats, which means its harder, but not impossible to rework their toon to in order to change out feats.

I see this alot on the forums, where someone disagrees and claims the other person doesnt know what they are talking about, but yet wont clarify because to do so doesnt support their opinion on the situation. The only thing left at that point is to try to break down the credibility of the other person, which doesnt work when facts are there to back their assessment of the situation up.

You are not the only one who plays a 20 fighter or understands how their feat system works. But anyone who disagrees with you must not know what thery are talking about right?

Wrong.

Absolutism is a large reason why these types of issues cant be debated. You are looking for a horde of people to agree with you unconditionally, and when some dont, the only thing you got is "you dont know what youre talking about". If this is the case, please enlighten the rest of us ignorant individuals who have played fighters and reworked their toons several times over the years as to why fighters would not be able to rework their toon to drop those feats. What condition exists that doesnt allow them to do this?

[krud]

OK, so I recalculated numbers adding in good burst (1d6, d6+d6*crit mult) pos-pos GS, tharne's goggles (+8 sneak attack), rage spell (+2str), double madstone(+6str), warchanter (+9 damage), prayer(+2damage). Assuming haste + madstone = 1.15*1.2 increase in attack speed across the board. Added WF power attack enhancement +3 to PA.

I get:
twf current 473.4
twf new 399.7
thf 356.3

TWF pulls ahead by ~12% under the new setup (twf is much farther ahead using current standards). The difference is probably less when glancing blow weapon effects are considered (I couldn't find numbers on weapon effects procs for glancing blows, so left them out).

[BlackSteel]

[QUOTE=krud;2999668]OK, so I recalculated numbers adding in good burst (1d6, d6+d6*crit mult) pos-pos GS, tharne's goggles (+8 sneak attack), rage spell (+2str), double madstone(+6str), warchanter (+9 damage), prayer(+2damage). Assuming haste + madstone = 1.15*1.2 increase in attack speed across the board. Added WF power attack enhancement +3 to PA.

I get:
twf current 473.4
twf new 399.7
thf 356.3

TWF pulls ahead by ~12% under the new setup (twf is much farther ahead using current standards). The difference is probably less when glancing blow weapon effects are considered (I couldn't find numbers on weapon effects procs for glancing blows, so left them out).[/QUOTE

there's slot of wrong numbers n information in this post

for starters : haste n madstone do not stack

and your str bonus from madstone is wrong

[krud]

there's slot of wrong numbers n information in this post

for starters : haste n madstone do not stack

and your str bonus from madstone is wrong

http://ddowiki.com/page/Madstone_Rage ok it's +4 total, i thought +2 +4 = +6

mistook windstance + madstone. will recalculate for madstone only

twf current 410.5
twf new 347.9
thf 312.2 (non twitch)

~11%, still the same. The more effects you add, the more twf pulls away, but certainly not in huge increments. Depending on specific build (eg.18/1/1 exploiter adds ~10dps from rogue sneak attack - 2FE), buffs, and weapon effects you're still only looking at a difference of ~0-15% under the proposed setup

[Cetus]

Actually I know exactly what I am talking about. I just dont agree with your absolutist statement that fighters cant rework their toon to drop feats and take others. Most fighters will take those feats as fighter only feats, which means its harder, but not impossible to rework their toon to in order to change out feats.

I see this alot on the forums, where someone disagrees and claims the other person doesnt know what they are talking about, but yet wont clarify because to do so doesnt support their opinion on the situation. The only thing left at that point is to try to break down the credibility of the other person, which doesnt work when facts are there to back their assessment of the situation up.

You are not the only one who plays a 20 fighter or understands how their feat system works. But anyone who disagrees with you must not know what thery are talking about right?

Wrong.

Absolutism is a large reason why these types of issues cant be debated. You are looking for a horde of people to agree with you unconditionally, and when some dont, the only thing you got is "you dont know what youre talking about". If this is the case, please enlighten the rest of us ignorant individuals who have played fighters and reworked their toons several times over the years as to why fighters would not be able to rework their toon to drop those feats. What condition exists that doesnt allow them to do this?

Ok you want to throw an ultimatum to test my knowledge on feat distribution...ok

You are claiming that I can still acquire hitpoints through changing around feats as a result. I am stating explicitly that you cannot.

Feat breakdown:

Feats that occupy CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

PA, WS, GWS, WF, GWF, SWF, SB, THF, ITHF, GTHF. IC: SLASHING

Everyone of those feats are necessary for maintaining max dps in a chosen fighting style.

NON-CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

Toughness acquired 8 times- This is the maximum number of toughness feats a Human fighter can attain, he needs nothing else in the entire feat list because it is all acquired through class feat slots.

So, Please explain to me, how, even if "difficult", can I acquire more hp through reorganizing my feats?

It is impossible, unless they allow toughness to be a class feat slot like on a monk, for a fighter.

[Chai]

Ok you want to throw an ultimatum to test my knowledge on feat distribution...ok

You are claiming that I can still acquire hitpoints through changing around feats as a result. I am stating explicitly that you cannot.

Feat breakdown:

Feats that occupy CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

PA, WS, GWS, WF, GWF, SWF, SB, THF, ITHF, GTHF. IC: SLASHING

Everyone of those feats are necessary for maintaining max dps in a chosen fighting style.

NON-CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

Toughness acquired 8 times- This is the maximum number of toughness feats a Human fighter can attain, he needs nothing else in the entire feat list because it is all acquired through class feat slots.

So, Please explain to me, how, even if "difficult", can I acquire more hp through reorganizing my feats?

It is impossible, unless they allow toughness to be a class feat slot like on a monk, for a fighter.

You chose to take those toughness feats that many times, which is the maximum number of times a fighter can take toughness. You are already at your maximum allotment, and made your own choice by doing so. This is not the only way to build a good offense minded fighter, but it is your choice.

I dont feel any sympathy here because barbarians cant even take 8 feats total unless they are human, and here you have a fighter with 8 toughness feats and still have all the specializations required to be kensai.

And congrats on making a toon with the only combination of feats that makes this impossible due to already being at your max. You arent allowed more toughness period, under any circumstance. This is not just due to the nerf. You made your own bed here by already taking the feat the max amount of times.

Trying to apply your build choice to every single offensive minded fighter in order to make the statements you make, as if this is the only way to build, would be ludicrous at best. This is the absolutist mindset that is eroding this game by allowing 5 or 6 popular melee builds to play their game, and considering everyone else sub par. Hopefully the nerf shakes some people out of this mentality. If it does, at least it will have done something positive.

[Cetus]

You chose to take those toughness feats that many times, which is the maximum number of times a fighter can take toughness. You are already at your maximum allotment, and made your own choice by doing so. This is not the only way to build a good offense minded fighter, but it is your choice.

I dont feel any sympathy here because barbarians cant even take 8 feats total unless they are human, and here you have a fighter with 8 toughness feats and still have all the specializations required to be kensai.

And congrats on making a toon with the only combination of feats that makes this impossible due to already being at your max. You arent allowed more toughness period, under any circumstance. This is not just due to the nerf. You made your own bed here by already taking the feat the max amount of times.

Trying to apply your build choice to every single offensive minded fighter in order to make the statements you make, as if this is the only way to build, would be ludicrous at best. This is the absolutist mindset that is eroding this game by allowing 5 or 6 popular melee builds to play their game, and considering everyone else sub par. Hopefully the nerf shakes some people out of this mentality. If it does, at least it will have done something positive.

Heh, if you find a better way to make an offensive fighter- you let me know

The maximum allotted feat distribution is exactly what I am able very effectively take advantage of.

Barbs have the highest potential for hp- but they never reach it because they have all the other feats needed to be dps efficient to compete with it.

This is why my build works so effectively, because the required feats are taken as seperate categories from the toughness feats. Anything else you take besides the distribution I listed, is completely useless in my opinion for an offensive fighter build. And this opinion is based on years of testing. (closest one that comes is quickdraw, but a half a second in real time is insignificant for my playstyle personally).

And this distribution is based on what the game mechanics offer at the time, changes like these are what makes people quit. Keep changing the rules, and you really don't have a consistent ruleset by which you can create the most efficient character.

I can safely assure you, and this is not ego talking, this is the result of exhausting all possible solutions talking, that you cannot be any more effective as an offensive, max dps fighter if you deviate from that feat dsitribution.

Thats a strong statement, and I am confidently voicing it because that is what I have proven to work for the chosen goal in mind.

[Cetus]

You chose to take those toughness feats that many times, which is the maximum number of times a fighter can take toughness. You are already at your maximum allotment, and made your own choice by doing so. This is not the only way to build a good offense minded fighter, but it is your choice.

I dont feel any sympathy here because barbarians cant even take 8 feats total unless they are human, and here you have a fighter with 8 toughness feats and still have all the specializations required to be kensai.

And congrats on making a toon with the only combination of feats that makes this impossible due to already being at your max. You arent allowed more toughness period, under any circumstance. This is not just due to the nerf. You made your own bed here by already taking the feat the max amount of times.

Trying to apply your build choice to every single offensive minded fighter in order to make the statements you make, as if this is the only way to build, would be ludicrous at best. This is the absolutist mindset that is eroding this game by allowing 5 or 6 popular melee builds to play their game, and considering everyone else sub par. Hopefully the nerf shakes some people out of this mentality. If it does, at least it will have done something positive.

I can dispute with you how to buid the most effective offensive fighter all day, but bring it to a different thread. Stop derailing this one because regardless of any build decision, removing the usefulness of a feat that is common to several classes as melees, needs to be considered hesitantly, because then the redistribution of that feat can benefit one class over the other, thus resulting in a NEW imbalance.

'nuff said.

[Chai]

I can dispute with you how to buid the most effective offensive fighter all day, but bring it to a different thread. Stop derailing this one because regardless of any build decision, removing the usefulness of a feat that is common to several classes as melees, needs to be considered hesitantly, because then the redistribution of that feat can benefit one class over the other, thus resulting in a NEW imbalance.

'nuff said.

What you call derailment I call disagreement. You want to post a thread about a topic, you better be ready to hear and understand both sides of the topic. Also understand that people will disagree with you, and this is not derailing the thread. If you cant handle this, dont OP.

I have heard disagreement labeled as trolling, derailment, or not knowing what I or others are talking about, and this is the reason why we cant really have these discussions on open forums, because this is what it turns into. You clearly realize that my opinion and facts I used to back it up have merrit, but to admit this goes against all the absolutims piled into the mentality of players in this game who believe that you need to be one of the 4 or 5 cookie cutter builds in order to be labeled "best" at what you do. I will be there to point out why this fails, every time I can.

Turbine staff members want to hear all sides of players instinctual feedback concerning this issue and not just the few players who claim they are "at the top." They will also want to hear all sides of the feedback after this change is tested and the actuall results can be proven through example.

[sigtrent]

We never quite got the explanations that the OP was interested in.

Here is my read on all this....
1. Some animation/attack speed increases (tempest, fighter capstone, wind stance, zeal) are being changed to double strike proc chances. They will have a double strike percentage. That is the percent chance that you will get a second main hand attack when you make a normal main hand attack. This applies to all weapon styles but only affects main hand attacks.

Example: If I have double strike 20%. Each time I attack with my main hand (4 times per full standing animation) I will roll a 20% and if successful there will be two attacks made instead of one. This happens before you actually make an attack roll, but after you determine if there is a valid target to attack. You would only see the usual animation, but you would see two sets of damage numbers if both attacks hit.

Note: This is actually a lot like the glancing blows mechanic in that it too is a % based mechanic modified by various factors. (Ive seen some argue its not a % but an attack roll at a penalty) Presumably double strike bonuses would stack as a total percent.

Note #2: What they are doing to off hand attacks is essentially making them use this double strike mechanic, but with special off hand rules applied for damage bonuses from str and the like and using the off hand weapon instead of the main hand. Before you swing the main hand you roll the off hand % to see if you will be making the off hand attack.

Note #3: Not all speed boosts will become double strike (yet). Others like boost and the haste spell will remain actual animation/attack speed increases. As will the speed based on BAB.

2. Glancing blows will be removed from attacks made while moving. Normally the first attack while moving grants a glancing blow chance, and GTWF grants glancing blows on the second moving attack (there are two attacks in the Moving animation and 4 when standing still)

Explanation of glancing blows: These are bonus damage values applied both to your primary target and any other monster in reach of your weapon in an arc in front of you. They are generally about 1/4-1/3 of the base non crit damage (at lest that is my experience). There is a % chance for each target that they are applied. They happen only on certain animations, and this is modified by the two weapon fighting feats. There is also a chance that glancing blows will proc weapon effects. This chance can be increased by various enhancements. My understanding is that a fully speced THF can get glancing and procs on most if not all attacks.

Explanation of twitching: Twitching is a technique where you move side to side quickly while not actually moving out of range of your main target. It seems to use the moving animations, but sort or re-set's it so that it is especially fast, about 20% or so faster than the full 4 attack standing animation. TWF characters do not twitch because they do not get off hand attacks while moving, thus the 20% attack rate bonus would be offset by a 50% loss in number of attacks per animation.

Why this nerfs THF: For those actually moving around, they loose dps, although moving while fighting is not generally good dps (except for "twitch"). While twitching, the character would loose glancing blows. Likely twitching DPS could still beat standing DPS because glancing blows are less than 20% of full attack damage due to them not having a chance for crits and having a reduced base damage.

And now my analysis....

Why nerf THF glancing blows while moving?
1. The best reason is that it makes it more on par with TWF. Since TWF does not get any benefit while moving, they also took away the benefit that THF gets while moving. Prior to the update 5 nerf to TWF this could be seen as compensation for a generally weaker fighting style. THF was better while moving than TWF. Taking away some of the standing DPS advantage from TWF means the prior advantage THF enjoyed on the move could be taken away and both would be more consistent. As to why not just allow both to get bonus damage....

2. Twitch fighting is not intentional mechanics. It is something created as an externalities by the way moving and attacking works with animations. They can't program it out of the game, so they can only make a play incentive not to do it. In this case by taking away a weapon style's bonus damage effect. THF still has some bonuses (double PA and 1.5 str) that would be hard to take away without re-wiring. Taking away the much enhanced glancing blows is a way to dis-intensive the twitch play. Shade claims twitch will remain better DPS. Testing may prove that out, but its clearly not going to be as good as it was prior to the nerf.

[Aaxeyu]

Heh, if you find a better way to make an offensive fighter- you let me know

The maximum allotted feat distribution is exactly what I am able very effectively take advantage of.

Barbs have the highest potential for hp- but they never reach it because they have all the other feats needed to be dps efficient to compete with it.

This is why my build works so effectively, because the required feats are taken as seperate categories from the toughness feats. Anything else you take besides the distribution I listed, is completely useless in my opinion for an offensive fighter build. And this opinion is based on years of testing. (closest one that comes is quickdraw, but a half a second in real time is insignificant for my playstyle personally).

And this distribution is based on what the game mechanics offer at the time, changes like these are what makes people quit. Keep changing the rules, and you really don't have a consistent ruleset by which you can create the most efficient character.

I can safely assure you, and this is not ego talking, this is the result of exhausting all possible solutions talking, that you cannot be any more effective as an offensive, max dps fighter if you deviate from that feat dsitribution.

Thats a strong statement, and I am confidently voicing it because that is what I have proven to work for the chosen goal in mind.

There is nothing max DPS about a fighter build without quickdraw. Claiming otherwise is foolish.
Get over yourself.

[Cetus]

We never quite got the explanations that the OP was interested in.

Here is my read on all this....
1. Some animation/attack speed increases (tempest, fighter capstone, wind stance, zeal) are being changed to double strike proc chances. They will have a double strike percentage. That is the percent chance that you will get a second main hand attack when you make a normal main hand attack. This applies to all weapon styles but only affects main hand attacks.

Example: If I have double strike 20%. Each time I attack with my main hand (4 times per full standing animation) I will roll a 20% and if successful there will be two attacks made instead of one. This happens before you actually make an attack roll, but after you determine if there is a valid target to attack. You would only see the usual animation, but you would see two sets of damage numbers if both attacks hit.

Note: This is actually a lot like the glancing blows mechanic in that it too is a % based mechanic modified by various factors. (Ive seen some argue its not a % but an attack roll at a penalty) Presumably double strike bonuses would stack as a total percent.

Note #2: What they are doing to off hand attacks is essentially making them use this double strike mechanic, but with special off hand rules applied for damage bonuses from str and the like and using the off hand weapon instead of the main hand. Before you swing the main hand you roll the off hand % to see if you will be making the off hand attack.

Note #3: Not all speed boosts will become double strike (yet). Others like boost and the haste spell will remain actual animation/attack speed increases. As will the speed based on BAB.

2. Glancing blows will be removed from attacks made while moving. Normally the first attack while moving grants a glancing blow chance, and GTWF grants glancing blows on the second moving attack (there are two attacks in the Moving animation and 4 when standing still)

Explanation of glancing blows: These are bonus damage values applied both to your primary target and any other monster in reach of your weapon in an arc in front of you. They are generally about 1/4-1/3 of the base non crit damage (at lest that is my experience). There is a % chance for each target that they are applied. They happen only on certain animations, and this is modified by the two weapon fighting feats. There is also a chance that glancing blows will proc weapon effects. This chance can be increased by various enhancements. My understanding is that a fully speced THF can get glancing and procs on most if not all attacks.

Explanation of twitching: Twitching is a technique where you move side to side quickly while not actually moving out of range of your main target. It seems to use the moving animations, but sort or re-set's it so that it is especially fast, about 20% or so faster than the full 4 attack standing animation. TWF characters do not twitch because they do not get off hand attacks while moving, thus the 20% attack rate bonus would be offset by a 50% loss in number of attacks per animation.

Why this nerfs THF: For those actually moving around, they loose dps, although moving while fighting is not generally good dps (except for "twitch"). While twitching, the character would loose glancing blows. Likely twitching DPS could still beat standing DPS because glancing blows are less than 20% of full attack damage due to them not having a chance for crits and having a reduced base damage.

And now my analysis....

Why nerf THF glancing blows while moving?
1. The best reason is that it makes it more on par with TWF. Since TWF does not get any benefit while moving, they also took away the benefit that THF gets while moving. Prior to the update 5 nerf to TWF this could be seen as compensation for a generally weaker fighting style. THF was better while moving than TWF. Taking away some of the standing DPS advantage from TWF means the prior advantage THF enjoyed on the move could be taken away and both would be more consistent. As to why not just allow both to get bonus damage....

2. Twitch fighting is not intentional mechanics. It is something created as an externalities by the way moving and attacking works with animations. They can't program it out of the game, so they can only make a play incentive not to do it. In this case by taking away a weapon style's bonus damage effect. THF still has some bonuses (double PA and 1.5 str) that would be hard to take away without re-wiring. Taking away the much enhanced glancing blows is a way to dis-intensive the twitch play. Shade claims twitch will remain better DPS. Testing may prove that out, but its clearly not going to be as good as it was prior to the nerf.

Thats an intelligent evalutaion, pretty synonymou with what I've digested,

but, wouldn't changing the attack speed enhancements to "doublestrike" percentages demand a code rework- which would globally affect all speed boost enhancements, even the haste boost? Thats what I'm interested in learning about.

[Cetus]

There is nothing max DPS about a fighter build without quickdraw. Claiming otherwise is foolish.
Get over yourself.

Perhaps for your playstyle, I confirm otherwise.

[Cetus]

What you call derailment I call disagreement. You want to post a thread about a topic, you better be ready to hear and understand both sides of the topic. Also understand that people will disagree with you, and this is not derailing the thread. If you cant handle this, dont OP.

I have heard disagreement labeled as trolling, derailment, or not knowing what I or others are talking about, and this is the reason why we cant really have these discussions on open forums, because this is what it turns into. You clearly realize that my opinion and facts I used to back it up have merrit, but to admit this goes against all the absolutims piled into the mentality of players in this game who believe that you need to be one of the 4 or 5 cookie cutter builds in order to be labeled "best" at what you do. I will be there to point out why this fails, every time I can.

Turbine staff members want to hear all sides of players instinctual feedback concerning this issue and not just the few players who claim they are "at the top." They will also want to hear all sides of the feedback after this change is tested and the actuall results can be proven through example.

Reread my post and your responses.

I claimed that my build cannot gain the hp replacement that barbs can due to already maxed defenses (both the barb AND the fighter at this point in time). You falsely stated that I could, and I blatantly corrected ur misinformed judgment. Your accusation of my lack of knowledge is thread derailment, not opinion- despite open feat breakdowns.

All it takes is one case where the feat redistribution causes an imbalance, because that globally revolutionizes character planning in that sector.

I'd like to kindly ask you to take example of the other recent poster who actually supplied informative judgment based on the OP.

[Aaxeyu]

Perhaps for your playstyle, I confirm otherwise.

What, you don't use haste boosts or PS?
You can't always only use them when you're not fighting if you wan't optimization.

[lolwatboomer]

ya a lot of people don't realize quick draw increases the speed at which your boosts activate... whether or not it's intended is another story

[Chai]

Reread my post and your responses.

I claimed that my build cannot gain the hp replacement that barbs can due to already maxed defenses (both the barb AND the fighter at this point in time). You falsely stated that I could, and I blatantly corrected ur misinformed judgment. Your accusation of my lack of knowledge is thread derailment, not opinion- despite open feat breakdowns.

All it takes is one case where the feat redistribution causes an imbalance, because that globally revolutionizes character planning in that sector.

I'd like to kindly ask you to take example of the other recent poster who actually supplied informative judgment based on the OP.

And you falsely claimed that this will affect all offensive fighters. This type of absolutism is again why we cant have these types of discussions on the open forums in a civil fashion, without it being full of rants about lack of knowledge. You are in the minority % of players who choose to use all their non fighter feats for toughness, and claims that this is going to imbalance the entirety of the fighter class -vs- barbarians. The rest of us in the huge gray area comprised of 99.5% of players dont care if barbarians or fighters have a few more hp than the other.

Who accused who of lack of knowledge again? Pot, Kettle, Black. Then you tried to make it sound like a class wide issue when its actually a specific build choice issue. Absolutism doesnt hold water in situational debates.

I did supply informative judgement, its just that you dont agree with it, and you feel the need to attack credibility because of this. If you are going to OP this kind of stuff, realize you are going to hear multiple viewpoints on the same subject. If you dont agree with it fine, but that doesnt mean I know less about what I am talking about than you do. If you cant handle disagreement, dont OP. You WILL be faced with multiple different viewpoints, many of which you do not agree with.

[Monkey_Archer]

Ok you want to throw an ultimatum to test my knowledge on feat distribution...ok

You are claiming that I can still acquire hitpoints through changing around feats as a result. I am stating explicitly that you cannot.

Feat breakdown:

Feats that occupy CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

PA, WS, GWS, WF, GWF, SWF, SB, THF, ITHF, GTHF. IC: SLASHING

Everyone of those feats are necessary for maintaining max dps in a chosen fighting style.

NON-CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

Toughness acquired 8 times- This is the maximum number of toughness feats a Human fighter can attain, he needs nothing else in the entire feat list because it is all acquired through class feat slots.

So, Please explain to me, how, even if "difficult", can I acquire more hp through reorganizing my feats?

It is impossible, unless they allow toughness to be a class feat slot like on a monk, for a fighter.

1) Thats not max dps. You need at least some blunt spec to be considered max dps.
2) Thats not even max slashing dps. You're missing quickdraw.
3) Talking about dropping the THF line is pointless. Removing glancing blows from moving attacks would make GTHF useless, so they will obviously give it additional bonuses if that happens. Even if they do completely remove moving glancing blows, the second you fail to do perfect twitch attacking (or your attack bonus isnt high enough to hit on a 2) you're not doing max dps. GTHF will still be required for max dps.

[Chai]

1) Thats not max dps. You need at least some blunt spec to be considered max dps.
2) Thats not even max slashing dps. You're missing quickdraw.
3) Talking about dropping the THF line is pointless. Removing glancing blows from moving attacks would make GTHF useless, so they will obviously give it additional bonuses if that happens. Even if they do completely remove moving glancing blows, the second you fail to do perfect twitch attacking (or your attack bonus isnt high enough to hit on a 2) you're not doing max dps. GTHF will still be required for max dps.

/agree.

What does someone with slashing and nothing else specced do in epic rayium? I am sure epic abbot isnt too far away. That might just be the toughest fight in the game when it comes out.

Every time I think of twitching through long fights, the WOW South Park episode comes to mind where Cartman is squirting Ben Gay onto peoples forearms to prevent carpaltunnel.

GTHF still being required for max DPS is conjecture for sure, but I cant believe that Turbine would go as far as eliminating all usefulness of it from the game after seeing all the feedback. They will likely put something in that will make people want to keep those feats. This type of speculation goes against absolutism however, where something definately IS or IS NOT.

I am still not going to go into complate Frenzied Nerdzerker mode until I see the actual results.