Time for a global rebalance of named items

[osirisisis]

Excellent post.... Simply Brilliant +1 and /signed

I to tho would add a focus on Green steel.

In my opinion the true minimum level requirements for a Green Steal mineral 2 weapon if it came out of a random loot table would look something to the tune of:

+5 min lvl 8
+2 damage min lvl 2
holy min lvl 4
burst min lvl 2
metalline min lvl 4
bleed min lvl 2
+4 incite AC min lvl 8

for a total of a min level requirement of 30

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

I think this would achieve:
1. Some slight but desperately needed help for random loot levels 12 to 15.
2. More possible viability to the Death nip, and other Necro tome page weapons and maybe some Abbot Raid gear.
3. Address a long over due nerf of a grossly over powered perversion of the AD&D crafting rule set.

[Yaga_Nub]

Excellent post.... Simply Brilliant +1 and /signed

I to tho would add a focus on Green steel.

In my opinion the true minimum level requirements for a Green Steal mineral 2 weapon if it came out of a random loot table would look something to the tune of:

+5 min lvl 8
+2 damage min lvl 2
holy min lvl 4
burst min lvl 2
metalline min lvl 4
bleed min lvl 2
+4 incite AC min lvl 8

for a total of a min level requirement of 30

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

I think this would achieve:
1. Some slight but desperately needed help for random loot levels 11 to 15.
2. More possible viability to the Death nip, and other Necro tome page weapons and maybe some Abbot Raid gear.
3. Address a long over due nerf of a grossly over powered perversion of the PnP crafting rule set.

I've always said that as soon as you get the first two tiers of enhancements placed on a GS item the ML should go from level 12 to 14 and when you put the final tier on it should go from 14 to 16. That was at level cap of 16. Now that we cap at 20 I would say that the ML for the third tier should be increased to 18.

[Eladiun]

I've always said that as soon as you get the first two tiers of enhancements placed on a GS item the ML should go from level 12 to 14 and when you put the final tier on it should go from 14 to 16. That was at level cap of 16. Now that we cap at 20 I would say that the ML for the third tier should be increased to 18.

Agreed, and if you can't make it 4 levels without your GS items that's kinda sad. Running quests with GS twinks and then running then without you can really see the effect these items have a quest difficulty.

[Angelus_dead]

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

That's pretty logical, but there would still be a lot of players who get upset out of proportion to the actual effect.

If they did a nerf like that, they should add an exception so that level 1-15 characters who currently have the greensteel item can continue to use it with ML 12. Newly crafted items would be ML 16, and a character would be unable to place things in the Altar of Devastation before being 16. Anyone who True Reincarnates would also have his greensteel ML raised to 16 (and the reincarnate NPC would give a specific warning about that effect)

[osirisisis]

That's pretty logical, but there would still be a lot of players who get upset out of proportion to the actual effect.

If they did a nerf like that, they should add an exception so that level 1-15 characters who currently have the greensteel item can continue to use it with ML 12. Newly crafted items would be ML 16, and a character would be unable to place things in the Altar of Devastation before being 16. Anyone who True Reincarnates would also have his greensteel ML raised to 16 (and the reincarnate NPC would give a specific warning about that effect)

I would logically think that insuring and preserving players hard work would be top priority but, given turbine's track record and the current tread I don't think that "upset out of proportion to the actual effect" are words in turbines vocabulary.

Of the 3 major cycles I would say Green Steal mathematically is the biggest imbalance so far and would lean to making a sacrifice for a greater good.

I think a "Grandfathered" context is a smaller step in the right direction but never the less a step in the right direction.

[Cyr]

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

What this would actually do...

A) Not that much to new toons.
B) Make the TR grind that much more of a grind. Half the fun of the TR grind is finally getting your GS items out of the bank and using them. I'm not sure what great benefit is added to the game by making TR's have even more loot for the seperate level ranges. It's not like they are going to be having any issues using their disruptors, banishers, and smiters instead except the extra bank space it takes up when they TR again.
C) Upset people who bothered making GS items specifically for TR's.
D) Please the crowd who likes complaining about how overpowered loot is.
E) Please those who don't run the raid and have the items in the first place.
F) Be another change that really does nothing to help the random loot tables as their real issues have to do with the exact same people who complain about GS items. It's all about the fear of making OP items that has restricted new item effects and kept so many junk ones in the tables for so long.

GS items are vastly over rated when it comes to them making everything else obsolete. Everything else is obselete because the devs didn't put many new item powers in the random loot tables (and what they did was not really top end) and stopped making new powers that were really compelling on items.

It would have been VERY logical for them to increase the ML of GS items as you crafted them from the beginning as Yaga described. They did not do so though. I am a strong believer that even if you made a mistake unless there is a very compelling reason (and logical in the first place is hardly compelling now) you leave things alone and work on new stuff instead of annoying players for no good reason and spending dev time in so doing.

[Kistilan]

What this would actually do...

A) Not that much to new toons.
B) Make the TR grind that much more of a grind. Half the fun of the TR grind is finally getting your GS items out of the bank and using them. I'm not sure what great benefit is added to the game by making TR's have even more loot for the seperate level ranges. It's not like they are going to be having any issues using their disruptors, banishers, and smiters instead except the extra bank space it takes up when they TR again.
C) Upset people who bothered making GS items specifically for TR's.
D) Please the crowd who likes complaining about how overpowered loot is.
E) Please those who don't run the raid and have the items in the first place.
F) Be another change that really does nothing to help the random loot tables as their real issues have to do with the exact same people who complain about GS items. It's all about the fear of making OP items that has restricted new item effects and kept so many junk ones in the tables for so long.

GS items are vastly over rated when it comes to them making everything else obsolete. Everything else is obselete because the devs didn't put many new item powers in the random loot tables (and what they did was not really top end) and stopped making new powers that were really compelling on items.

It would have been VERY logical for them to increase the ML of GS items as you crafted them from the beginning as Yaga described. They did not do so though. I am a strong believer that even if you made a mistake unless there is a very compelling reason (and logical in the first place is hardly compelling now) you leave things alone and work on new stuff instead of annoying players for no good reason and spending dev time in so doing.

I totally agree with what you've said, but I believe Yaga's suggestion coupled with fixing the loot tables (as you stated) and introduction of new high-level powers that are compelling and nearly-equivalent (or equivalent with MIN LVL 18 and 20) to Green Steel would be the proper way to do this.

I also agree that Turbine doesn't need to revisit every item in game at once, but if they were to do this it would behoove them to develop a new series of quests and revisit a series of quests for tweaks + named item reconstruction. I only support that sort of "development" if they can maintain their 2-3 month/release development cycle. If they start slipping, scratch revisiting the old content and only push the new until they figure out how to manage their development cycle in timeliness again with a decent quality control.

And to those who say, "But they could use the extra time to make sure the release comes without bugs instead of revisiting any old content," let me assure you they can neglect every piece of old content and there will still be bugs at release. After 13 years of MMORPGs, this is a fundamental truth that I've accepted and denial is just not classy.

Lastly, there would be an advantage to this split-development trend: the old bugs we've come to love and know could be addressed again in old content. There are issues regarding certain raids and quests that could be corrected. And slumbering powers added to things such as BAM, Threnal, Deleras, Co6, etc would be incredibly nice. Min level reqs should be raised on any item where a slumbering power is awakened.

Currently, the items available are of the proper "potency," but yes, there are quite a few in the "meh" category where tweaks would be appropriate.

[Angelus_dead]

What this would actually do...

A) Not that much to new toons.

The primary beneficiary of that change would be non-twinked non-TR warriors, who gain the ability to enter a level 12-15 party and contribute to damage instead of watching Joe Lightning Strike kill everything. (I've noticed that a level 12 TR holding multiple greensteel is more effective in battle than level 17-18 characters using items they accumulated in that life)

If you're saying the greensteel change by itself wouldn't be enough to achieve that goal, you're right: it would only be a little piece of a solution. As for the expanded demand on bank space, yes that's a real problem, although there are several things that could help alleviate it.

[Cyr]

The primary beneficiary of that change would be non-twinked non-TR warriors, who gain the ability to enter a level 12-15 party and contribute to damage instead of watching Joe Lightning Strike kill everything. (I've noticed that a level 12 TR holding multiple greensteel is more effective in battle than level 17-18 characters using items they accumulated in that life)

If you're saying the greensteel change by itself wouldn't be enough to achieve that goal, you're right: it would only be a little piece of a solution. As for the expanded demand on bank space, yes that's a real problem, although there are several things that could help alleviate it.

Actually there are ALOT more issues then GS if you are talking about TR's being much more effective then first life toons.

A) There is a lot more loot that a TR has accumulated (on average) then a first life toon before cap is reached excluding GS. Banishers, vorpals, and disruptors all come to mind as weapons. Raid gear of all sorts for other gear.
B) TR toons are by their very nature stronger.
C) TR toons spend a lot longer leveling. So even if A and B were not true they would have a lot more time to get better gear during those lives. Also there is a much larger incentive to fully gear a TR as you spend longer at each level.
D) Your benefit is not a benefit. It is only a benefit to that non-twinked TR warriors ego. They would be completing quests a little slower with this in place and with more possibility of resource use. Not exactly a compelling benefit...

As part of a comprehensive change to loot a GS change like this could be washed out by the other benefits granted. However, as an approach to 'help' non TR's compared to TR's that in my mind is illogical. In fact, I don't think any of the changes to loot here should be approached with a what will hurt TR's and make non TR's seem better. I have not seen any arguments here that have spelled out why this is desirable for the game or will make the game more fun.

I also think it is important that as you have stated this has to be done as a GLOBAL rebalance. If done piece meal Turbine WILL screw it up and will extremely anger players as they are incrementally hit with nerfs. Turbine has SERIOUS ISSUES seeing the big picture. To get something like this right they have to do it all at once as a big picture change with FULL PLAYER INVOLVEMENT during the process so they can get critical feedback before it's difficult to change direction.

[zealous]

Is it really to much to ask, and not a logical step in the right direction to move GS min level requirement to 16 from 12?

The main advantage of GS is the relative predictability of obtaining them and the inventory slot as well as weapon swapping consolidation.

The primary beneficiary of that change would be non-twinked non-TR warriors, who gain the ability to enter a level 12-15 party and contribute to damage instead of watching Joe Lightning Strike kill everything. (I've noticed that a level 12 TR holding multiple greensteel is more effective in battle than level 17-18 characters using items they accumulated in that life)

What about Steve "I have a icyburst greater reptilian bane dwarven axe rr dwarf and I have so much fun when I join harbor pugs since i liek tawtally rawk teh killz" or similar?

or Jeff "I can twitch 2h perfectly, know how to and when to use haste boost, and have a complete set of level appropriate elemental/holy + icyburst greater banes" ?

[Yaga_Nub]

The primary beneficiary of that change would be non-twinked non-TR warriors, who gain the ability to enter a level 12-15 party and contribute to damage instead of watching Joe Lightning Strike kill everything. (I've noticed that a level 12 TR holding multiple greensteel is more effective in battle than level 17-18 characters using items they accumulated in that life)....

I actually lol'ed at that one.

[terrenceknight1]

First off, I just want to give kudo's to A_D for his ideas upon the dev's reviewing all the older loot and make an attempt at bringing it up to par with items you can get now from other sources.

I'm barely 3/4 through my First TR since restarting this game in November and I know I certainly still enjoy the older content, and will continue to do so on my next TR. I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy it even more if old items were rebalanced to be comparable to the new items.

One thing I would personally love to see is random loot from chests and dungeons get upgraded so one doesn't feel as 'gimped' if they don't have green steel weapons and/or accessories. Which granted I'm biased since I only have a pair of T2 Min goggles at the moment.

Make ML 18-20 random loot, I'd say start dropping on hard/elite Devils Battlefield quests, and certainly on epics. (RR/alignment restricted) be comparable to Green steel since GS seems to be baseline and compared to just bout everything else. My reasoning (Flawed or not) with Green steel you can plan out exactly what you want on it and you will, with time get it.

With random loot well..its just that. Its random, with so many suffix/prefix's out there you would have to be amazingly lucky to get an item that could get you similar properties. But at least the chance would be there.

GS weapons would still have the 1 die up in damage but I think it would certainly help close the gap.

My Apologies to A_D for the slight derailment of the thread.

Edit:Thread Necro power!