Another "Help me with my Pali build" Thread

[CrunK.]

Well I am still using him. Since this thread I have been paying allot more attention to my standings. I found that I am 2nd and 3rd in kills in the groups I was in over the weekend. I still like the Pali Great Crossbow mix. When I do get my Drow Pali up and going I will re do this one.

But still no one has said what is wrong with a Paladin Using a Great Crossbow. It's almost as bad as the church "we don't know why its bad we just know its bad, so there:" As detailed and long winded as some of the threads are around here I figured someone would have been able to answer that by now.

[Gercho]

In general ranged combat is much lower dps than melee, in top of that most of paladins special abilities dont apply to ranged combat (smites, sacrifices and buffs), you can add to that that paladins are feat starved usually, so you dont have spare feats to spend on a weapon that if you use it you are punishing your own dps.

So, using a ranged weapon is ok in certain specific situations where you need to fight someone unreachable by melee. In any other situation you will do much less dps. For those specific situations, is not worthy to spend a feat.
For example, in your build i guess you fight with a Two Handed weapon (maybe you still use shield and sword in some situations, but soon wont be worthy) so you should have the feats that improve the THF fighting, that you will use 98% of the time instead of a feat that you should be using only 2% of the time.

I see from your build that you appreciate UMD, a feat invested on skill focus umd would be of great use for you, since you are pure pally and cant have max ranks.

So in general, every paladin wants to get these feats at least:

Power Attack
Improved Critical
3 thf line or twf line
Extend Spell
Toughness

that covers the 7 level feats, humans have one feat more that they will use for khopesh if they are twf, or sf:umd if they are thf, i m not saying that 100% of the paladins should have exactly those feats, but is what most have (unless splashing monk or fighter for more feats). Some people will want to trade extend or sf umd for something else, but a crossbow profficiency is not ever worth...
(btw weapon focus is not worthy either, just that ewp heavy crossbow is more rare to see)

[Vormaerin]

But still no one has said what is wrong with a Paladin Using a Great Crossbow. It's almost as bad as the church "we don't know why its bad we just know its bad, so there:" As detailed and long winded as some of the threads are around here I figured someone would have been able to answer that by now.

Oh, its been answered many times though not necessarily in a thread called "Why Great crossbow sucks for paladins." :P

Generally, there are three issues: 1) Ranged Combat is weak in DDO; 2) Great Crossbows are weak by ranged standards; 3) Paladins don't have ranged weapon synergy.

1) The original lead dev (long gone) was paranoid about kiting and perching (unless done by the bad guys). He apparently decided that ranged combat needed to be less damaging than melee combat to offset these "advantages." So no one, regardless of build/gear/skill, can make a ranged combatant that is as effective as a melee one. (You can make one that is decent and fun to play, assuming you don't have the 'must rule the DPS world' gene).

2) Great Crossbows cost a feat and are only a little more effective than other options. Yes, the damage is pretty good. But the rate of fire is not and you can make up a lot of that damage difference with Strength, which applies to all throwing weapons and, if you have Bow Str feat, to bows. But it does not apply to crossbows. Spending that feat on bow strength for longbow or for a repeating crossbow feat would be more effective.

3) Paladins don't get any ranged attack benefits and no bonus feats. Smite and Sacrifice don't work with crossbows. I don't think Zeal does either. And you need a lot of feats: EWP: Great Crossbow, Improved Crit: Ranged, Rapid Reload for starters. A fighter just has a much easier time with taking all those feats. Plus they can get Kensai: Great Crossbow Mastery if you really want to go nuts on it.

[Dartanyn]

Guys, it's not going to be his major combat mode. He only has it for two reasons: 1) he just likes getting off three or so shots before they close to melee, and 2) he found a keen great crossbow that he really likes and he wants to use it.

That's it. He's not using ranged to the exclusion of melee, he's just using it until melee is imminent. And he LIKES it. In my ever-so-humble opinion, that's worth the use of the extra human bonus feat. Especially for a character that he's gonna reroll anyway.

Get off his funfactor, please!

-Dartanyn

[Vormaerin]

He asked why its bad. Twice, in fact. So he got an answer. I kind of assume that if they ask twice, they want an answer...

Everyone has a ranged weapon for perchers and other such situations. If he wants to use a great crossbow, that's fine. I'll take the 1d6+7 of a returning throwing axe with mid 20s str over the 2d8 of the crossbow. 18-20/x2 is a little better than 20/x3, but sample size will be pretty small if its just a situational toy. I think the axe is better because it doesn't require ammo, doesn't require a feat, and lets me use a shield to block the return fire.

Btw, the other question was about the khopesh. Historically, a khopesh is an early blade weapon used in Ancient Egypt. Its not, technically, a sword. Its more of a wierd axe that looks kind of sword like.

It is an exotic weapon in D&D because it allows you to use trip while armed with it, which you can't do with most weapons in D&D. However, this feature is standard on all weapons in DDO, so the devs gave it a different bonus: it has sword crit range, but axe crit multiplier. This makes it one of the best one handed weapons in the game.

[CrunK.]

Pure knowledge, excellent responses. Thank you for the information.

Now its question time regarding my Drow Pali build:

Tomes: The DDO wiki says they are bind on acquire but why do I see them for sale in the auction house? And if I buy them in the auction house do they then bind on acquire? If not can my lvl 9 pali buy it and send it to my Drow Pali? So far I haven't found a mailbox on korthos.

Action Points: I have four action points so far. Which enhancements should I spend them on first?

khopesh: Sounds cooler than its name. If I wanted to go twf with the Khopesh what changes could I make on my current build while not straying too far off my current build path?

[Vormaerin]

Now its question time regarding my Drow Pali build:

Tomes:

Action Points:

khopesh:

Whether Tomes are bound depends on where you get them. They are bound if you buy them from the store. +1 Tomes that drop in loot are rarely, if ever, bound. +2, +3, and +4 Tomes will be bound in the lowest level instances they can drop, but not bound in higher level areas. So a quest might drop a bound +3 or an unbound +2, as I understand it. Raids tend to give you bound tomes earlier than you could otherwise get them.

Action points are kind of personal preference. I'd take Paladin Toughness I, Extra Smite Evil I, and whatever you might need as prerequisites later. For example: If you know you want to be a defender of Siberys at lvl 6, you could just get Focus of Good and Armor Boost out of the way. Its not terribly important because its just money to change your enhancements around if you goof, unlike feats.

Nothing really needs to change to go khopesh, other than taking the exotic weapon proficiency and NOT taking any of the drow weapon enhancements, since you won't be using rapiers or shortswords. Given that Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite give crit multipliers on use, you may wish to stay with a rapier for the 18-20 crit chance and use the drow racial bonuses to make up some of the day to day damage difference. But it really depends on whether you feel more feat starved or more AP starved as your paladin. You really are starved for both compared to a lot of classes.

[CrunK.]

If you see my post #11 you will see the build that I am trying to follow. I went to spend action points on the enhancements listed in the build and I found only one I was allowed to buy at the time. Which enhancements, in order, should I be getting according to that build. Or maybe I am having trouble understanding it.

Also I was searching for "Drow weapon damage" but could not find it at all. IS it the same as "Drow melee damage?"

[Gercho]

That's it. He's not using ranged to the exclusion of melee, he's just using it until melee is imminent. And he LIKES it. In my ever-so-humble opinion, that's worth the use of the extra human bonus feat. Especially for a character that he's gonna reroll anyway.

Get off his funfactor, please!

-Dartanyn

When melee is inminent you should use the time to buff/rebuff yourself

Anyway, if you have fun its allways a valid reason, but we cant evaluate how much fun someone has with a feat, so we advice in terms of game efficiency not in terms of subjective unknowable fun factor :P

[Vormaerin]

To change that build to khopesh, you would take Khopesh feat at lvl 6 instead of extend and push the rest of the list back one, dropping power attack. You'd also take Improved Crit: Slashing instead of piercing and spend the 3 APs of Drow melee damage on something else that amuses you.

Your first four APs on that build should be Paladin Toughness I, Extra Smiting I, and Follower of the Sovereign Host regardless of whether you go Khopesh or rapier.

[TechNoFear]

Don't worry too much about your enhancements, you can reset them as required (every 3 days). I redo mine each level or so (ie redo at 6th to get the KotC requirements).

To change that build to khopesh, you would take Khopesh feat at lvl 6 instead of extend and push the rest of the list back one, dropping power attack.

IMO this is a bad move. A Drow paladin does not have the extra feat required.

Khopesh is an expensive weapon to buy (because they are the most desired weapon unless an elf/drow or dwarf). Though at 14 you can create Holy Sword versions other weapons will be expensive.

You WANT Power Attack for the +5 dam to each hand, multiplied on crits.

Paladins Exhalted Smite increases crit range ('Threat' range or number of crits) and multiplier (amount of damage) so you want a weapon with a high 'Threat' range. Scimitar has the highest possible and with the Drow melee dam enhancements will do similar damage to a Khopesh (because it crits more often but but not cost a feat).

[Vormaerin]

Don't worry too much about your enhancements, you can reset them as required (every 3 days). I redo mine each level or so (ie redo at 6th to get the KotC requirements).



IMO this is a bad move. A Drow paladin does not have the extra feat required.

Khopesh is an expensive weapon to buy (because they are the most desired weapon unless an elf/drow or dwarf). Though at 14 you can create Holy Sword versions other weapons will be expensive.

You WANT Power Attack for the +5 dam to each hand, multiplied on crits.

Paladins Exhalted Smite increases crit range ('Threat' range or number of crits) and multiplier (amount of damage) so you want a weapon with a high 'Threat' range. Scimitar has the highest possible and with the Drow melee dam enhancements will do similar damage to a Khopesh (because it crits more often but but not cost a feat).

Of course you do. But he already has the standard build laid out and asked how to change it to use a khopesh. Power attack is the only thing you can give up realistically. I don't think its the best way to go, but its not a disaster.

Not sure why you are talking about scimitars. He's a drow, not an elf. Do you mean rapier? If so, that's true. But it doesn't really answer his question and was covered already in the thread. Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice are important, but they are still only a small fraction of the paladin's overall attacks.