Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[Khimberlhyte]

Played much? Nope. Tried it, wasn't for me. Lame argument? Sure. It was mostly in there to point out how ridiculous it is if people don't want to participate just because it costs in game money.

There is a difference between participating and subsidizing you, a distinction that appears to escape you. Participating means using my blue bar. Subsidizing you means using consumables that cost me money. I always participate, but I will never subsidize you. For a change, why don't you try naming another class besides clerics that is expected to buy expensive consumables ($wands >>> $tools or components) that only benefit other party members? Can't do it, can you?

[Bufo_Alvarius]

There is a difference between participating and subsidizing you, a distinction that appears to escape you. Participating means using my blue bar. Subsidizing you means using consumables that cost me money. I always participate, but I will never subsidize you. For a change, why don't you try naming another class besides clerics that is expected to buy expensive consumables ($wands >>> $tools or components) that only benefit other party members? Can't do it, can you?

LOL, how many wands/pots/scrolls can you buy for 1 metalline of pure good weapon? I sure didnt buy those weapons for ME. I only ever use them for the group. Yet i still fork over plat/pots etc all the time.

Easiest to get a group with, Easiest to get a guild with, and defining factor in party success. Needed in all high lvl quests. Can solo anything. You poor, poor clerics, whatever will you do? It must be sooo hard farming larges in amrath solo? Too bad all that solo loot you get over melee cant buy you consumables huh?

[Phidius]

Oh, good... this thread is still here. I was afraid it would have died out before I got a chance to contribute

"Must be self-efficient"

I have never felt the need to put that in an LFM.

The message it conveys is:

"I can heal myself. I hope you can heal yourself. If you can not heal yourself do not expect me to for I am not a team-player."

I find it much easier to just use "BYOH".

I don't know about lvl 10+, but in the lower levels, where clerics do not have blade barrier or comparable damage spells, I think the group benefits much more from the cleric who keeps the raging THF power attacking frenzy barbarian alive with heals than from the meleeing cleric who expects the barbarian to be self sufficient during the fight...

I can't think of anything in the lower levels that "needs" a highly specialized DPS toon to complete. I've never gotten my barbarians past level 6, for example.

On the other hand, I've found that at the lower levels, avoiding damage is better than uber DPS.

...No matter how awesome you think your Battle Cleric build may be, you're not even close to what a Fighter or Barbarian could do with that gear at high levels...

Yeah - they can die. I've seen a Barbarian boast about how fast he can pull aggro from the WF Titan in the Weapon Shipment. Too bad he didn't come to an understanding with the cleric ahead of time.

If you need a dedicated healer in a quest like the Weapon Shipment, you should either rethink the class you've chosen to play, or revamp your playing style.

I have no problem taking on the role of the dedicated healer on any of my toons when the situation calls for it. However, those times are much rarer than many people realize.

There is a difference between participating and subsidizing you, a distinction that appears to escape you. Participating means using my blue bar. Subsidizing you means using consumables that cost me money. I always participate, but I will never subsidize you. For a change, why don't you try naming another class besides clerics that is expected to buy expensive consumables ($wands >>> $tools or components) that only benefit other party members? Can't do it, can you?

LOL, how many wands/pots/scrolls can you buy for 1 metalline of pure good weapon? I sure didnt buy those weapons for ME. I only ever use them for the group. Yet i still fork over plat/pots etc all the time.

You use up an entire Metalline of Pure Good weapon in one quest? Wow... you should consider binding them - they last much longer that way.

[Khimberlhyte]

LOL, how many wands/pots/scrolls can you buy for 1 metalline of pure good weapon? I sure didnt buy those weapons for ME. I only ever use them for the group.

Sure you bought them for yourself. Unless you're a monk, and only carry those weapons to quests so that you can donate them to your other party members.

They are not consumed. Wands are. Everyone has repair and equipment costs, I already made that point. Get over it, you're not a precious and unique snowflake. How many of those could you buy for a Superior Devotion VI item? Or a SP storing item? I still buy weapons, armor, +wis items (and +con and +str), fortification items, etc. What, do you think clerics just show up in their Korthos gear or something? Have blue bar, will travel?

Yet i still fork over plat/pots etc all the time.

Uh huh. I'll believe you. Thousands wouldn't.

Easiest to get a group with, Easiest to get a guild with, and defining factor in party success. Needed in all high lvl quests. Can solo anything. You poor, poor clerics, whatever will you do? It must be sooo hard farming larges in amrath solo? Too bad all that solo loot you get over melee cant buy you consumables huh?

Never been to amrath, too many alts so far and haven't hit high level content yet. I have struggled with funds with my cleric all the way to level 11 so far (got XP for 12 in the sands last night), and don't see an end in sight yet. I prefer to run in groups rather than grind loot to buy wands for you, so suck it up, buttercup.

Feel free to roll up a cleric for yourself if you're jealous. There is a reason that many clerics stick to guild runs, which you should learn pretty quickly.

[Yagi]

Uh huh. I'll believe you. Thousands wouldn't.

Er I've had plenty of people give my clerics/fvs pots/plat/scrolls ect....And I give these things out to other players as well...it surely does happen, and often. Why so hostile?


And do you really consider wands to be a significant expense? I roll up toons on different servers with no other chars to get money from and by the time I am lvl 5 or so I always have many more then I could ever use in any quest or chain of quests with ease, and without farming....they are MUCH cheaper then potions.

In fact I spend far more on my few characters that cant self-heal/buff with anything but pots then I ever do on my chars that cast spells/umd/ ect. And thats before factoring in what I spend on wands/scrolls/plat after the quest to give to clrs/fvs.

Every player that pulls their weight has expenses in consumables. And such expenses are easily sustainable. Suck it up buttercup?

The whole "Take care of yourself" idea in regards to even having/being a divine caster in the group isnt even about the cost of minor things like wands and scrolls, the real expenses of being a caster dont even come into play until high level elite raids where it becomes somewhat reasonable to expect to use some pots. Its more an issue of not wanting to spend your entire playtime in a cycle of only watching red bars constantly in and out of combat and not being able to use your divine caster to its full potential because players dont even try to help themselves and are making you the divine caster operate in a manner thats less efficiant then if the group realized that survival is every player's responsibility.

For instance I dislike having to worry about peoples health OUTSIDE of combat because when I am doing that, it affects my ability to be proactive with my spells as I am tied to being within casting range of whoever is hurt which means that I will probably have to heal more in the next fight then I would have if I could have been out front using my toolset effectively.

[Khimberlhyte]

Er I've had plenty of people give my clerics/fvs pots/plat/scrolls ect....And I give these things out to other players as well...it surely does happen, and often. Why so hostile?

Maybe at higher levels or other servers, but it is pretty rare on Orien at low-mid levels. Hostility comes from dealing with other people's unrealistic expectations, who throw out weak arguments about their repair costs, and who have never played a cleric. It makes the game a lot less fun to play with those people. I enjoy keeping a group up in a tough spot, but hate the endless demands on resources - especially when it comes from people who do little to help themselves. The poster to whom I was responding sounds like the stereotypical bad player that I all too frequently meet in a nightmare PuG.

Every player that pulls their weight has expenses in consumables. And such expenses are easily sustainable. Suck it up buttercup?

No other player class is commonly expected to buy consumables for others. I have only had > 100k gold twice. The first time I bought a medium collectables bag for >80k gold. Another 20k or so on my second bank slot. I'm now buying 20-80k items weekly on the auction house, trying to keep my gear up to snuff. Then there is that fifth inventory slot which needs a portable hole, so 500k gold total unless I get lucky and loot one soon.

At level 11, I could easily spend 20k gold on CMW or CSW wands in an evening if that is what I relied upon to top people up between fights. With my abysmal haggle skill, consumables would consume much of my proceeds from selling loot to brokers and AH.

The whole "Take care of yourself" idea in regards to even having/being a divine caster in the group isnt even about the cost of minor things like wands and scrolls, the real expenses of being a caster dont even come into play until high level elite raids where it becomes somewhat reasonable to expect to use some pots. Its more an issue of not wanting to spend your entire playtime in a cycle of only watching red bars constantly in and out of combat and not being able to use your divine caster to its full potential because players dont even try to help themselves and are making you the divine caster operate in a manner thats less efficiant then if the group realized that survival is every player's responsibility.

For instance I dislike having to worry about peoples health OUTSIDE of combat because when I am doing that, it affects my ability to be proactive with my spells as I am tied to being within casting range of whoever is hurt which means that I will probably have to heal more in the next fight then I would have if I could have been out front using my toolset effectively.

I would submit that there are multiple reasons for "Take care of yourself". When I show up for my first run in the desert and find that 3 party members don't even have disease immunity items, or poison / blindness / curse / lesser restoration pots, I agree, it gets a little frustrating. As does wasting SP spamming heals because the person in front is too lazy or stupid to watch the blue dots spreading across the map as they get hit and dragged down by the mobs (s)he ran past - mobs that the full group could easily dispatch without taking much damage.

[systemstate]

I normally don't mind using heal wands at all. As a matter of fact, I prefer to use them for the first several minutes of a quest at least. Gives me time to see whose red bar needs the most baby sitting before blowing all my sp on other things.

Wands allow me to preserve my sp for times when I really need to dish out the heals. I also like the wand for those potential party-wipe moments. I can cast a heal spell, immediately followed by a wand-based heal since they recharge separately. I can heal nearly twice as fast this way if needed.

1500pp for three mod heal wands last me for several quests usually. For me, it's not a big deal- that's just how I choose to play a cleric. Personally, there's no worse feeling than running out of sp and consequently not being able to rez someone.

I also never considered it to be subsidizing other players. I just consider it supporting my style of play. I must say though, it does get a little annoying when I see someone pick up a 5-pack of heal pots from a broken barrel and then never use them. Then again, maybe they just know I'm going to take good care of them.

More often than not, I get compliments from other players: "Great job with the heals! ; Way to go cleric! ; Saved us from a wipe there."

These compliments far outweigh the small amount of plat it costs me to maintain a steady supply of heal wands.

One last note- Warforged: if you have made the investment in the Healer's Friend enhancements, I am more than happy to invest in keeping you healed!

[Khimberlhyte]

One last note- Warforged: if you have made the investment in the Healer's Friend enhancements, I am more than happy to invest in keeping you healed!

Going way offtopic, I don't understand the WF hate that I have sometimes seen. In one recent group, I asked to invite a WF barb guildmate to fill the empty sixth slot. Some party members complained about WF barbs being mana sinks, worst characters in the game, hated, etc. Whatever.

We had finished our run and they sent him an invite. Good thing, as I would have left and joined up with the WF had they not sent him an invite, and it was a decent group apart from that and one other minor issue.

On our next run, the WF required less of my SP than any other player - around a quarter of the person who was complaining about WF barbs. Go figure. I could almost ignore his HP bar in combat as it slowly dropped, knowing that I could hit him at 1/4 of his bar with one SP efficient Heal, rather than the constant CMW and CSW that the fleshy melee characters needed.

[SaisMatters]

I've played my Healer for over three years. It was the first character I built. Why? because I knew a healer would be the easiest class for me to get into groups with.
I heal! Why? Because THATS MY JOB!!!!
If I want to tank, I log onto my fighters. If I want to cast songs and spells, I log onto my bards and casters. If I want to pick locks and disable traps, I log onto my rogue. If I want to suck, I log onto my monk!(jk)
Clerics have always been and always will be the primary healing class!!!
As for wasting resourses, meh, most of MY resources are GIVEN to me by appreciative players(whom I always thank). So I'll gladly spend them keeping them alive, cause I know, if they go down, I'm likely next!

[Zachski]

Clerics have always been and always will be the primary healing class!!!

WRONG.

Clerics have always been and always will be a divine caster class designed to fight evil, especially undead. Healing is just one of their talents and their duties.

Don't like it? Go play a different MMO.

[Yagi]

No other player class is commonly expected to buy consumables for others. I have only had > 100k gold twice. The first time I bought a medium collectables bag for >80k gold. Another 20k or so on my second bank slot. I'm now buying 20-80k items weekly on the auction house, trying to keep my gear up to snuff. Then there is that fifth inventory slot which needs a portable hole, so 500k gold total unless I get lucky and loot one soon.

On my non-umd/non-caster characters I use rage pots, barskins+3 (when applicable to the character) Shield of faith+3 (when applicable to the character) Heroism pots, Neut poison, resist pots, prot pots, all manner of cure ailments of course, and often haste pots and other utility potions. These all have short durations and must be reapplied frequently. And I use cure serious pots that cost me 90k gold a stack. I use all of these to operate at peak efficiency at all times, because I can not completely control the flow of combat when in a party.

When I am solo, I rarely use a fraction of what I use in a group, as I can engage in any tactic I wish at any time with no surprises.

Using resources for others doesnt always mean directly using them upon other players.

I'm not trying to say that Divine casters have it easier then any other class or anything, I run them too, I know what it costs on a good run and I know what it can cost on a bad run. But players that are striving to play to their full potential of any class are also spending their plats in quests, and they *could* do without and wait for somebody else to deal with their ailments for them or operate below peak efficiency and slow down the exp per minute of the group.
It can be a bit tough at first if this is your first character and dont know what to run to get item x or what is worth selling on the ah and what isnt ect, you should probably ignore most things on the AH and look at (and sell most items to) the brokers every day rather then having them sit on the auction doing nothing for you. Another thing to help make money is to uncheck the box in gameplay for end rewards being related to classes, this increases your chances to pull things that may sell well on the ah. And if you uncheck this box on your other lower characters as well, you can often pull sp pots to give to your divine.

Also dont buy a portable hole on the ah, you get one free with 75 agents of argonnessen favour by questing in gianthold.

[Khimberlhyte]

It can be a bit tough at first if this is your first character and dont know what to run to get item x or what is worth selling on the ah and what isnt ect, you should probably ignore most things on the AH and look at (and sell most items to) the brokers every day rather then having them sit on the auction doing nothing for you. Another thing to help make money is to uncheck the box in gameplay for end rewards being related to classes, this increases your chances to pull things that may sell well on the ah. And if you uncheck this box on your other lower characters as well, you can often pull sp pots to give to your divine.

Also dont buy a portable hole on the ah, you get one free with 75 agents of argonnessen favour by questing in gianthold.

Thanks for the advice, +rep. I don't like to spend much time on the AH (am really looking forward to the upcoming search feature), but when I want some gear for my character, well, it is only game money, and the character earned it

I'm not sure if I can hold out for the 75 argo favor - I am a bit of a pack-rat, and don't want to hit Gianthold too early - I might need that XP to get me through levels 14-17 without buying too many more packs.

[Orratti]

The truth is that healers get tired of being in **** groups then getting blamed for their deaths. You will see that in all the posts. Every healer type says it clearly. I will spend my plat on wands to heal a good group but if you aren't playing well you're on your own. That is what you can read from these posts. Everyone can tell when they are in a bad group. People are dropping left and right, you get a party wipe and have to reenter, there are people all over the place, you name it. Then the blame start getting thrown and it usually gets flung in a single direction- the healer. The reaction for this is simple, start being a **** as a healer and that becomes the rhetoric you are having a problem with. How is a healer to know that if he simply kept your uber self alive you both could duo the quest while carrying everyone else's worthless stones around. From where he is standing the whole group looks fubar. Not to mention that some folks are just learning how to play the class. Healer is a key role in every group. I have played most of the classes and the most challenging is the healer. It can be easy in some groups and near impossible in others.

Playing melee I only need to focus on one red bar, my own,that goes for arcane caster as well. Killing the enemy I don't need to pay attention to their bars at all I just need to know which one is going to hurt the party the most and take that one down first. If the melee and the casters are doing their job well the healer will have an easy time doing his and for that matter if the rest or the party is doing their job well then you really don't even need a healer most of the time. If I'm playing a ranger, bard, or other devine wand user I'll be watching everyone's life bars but if I fail I don't get insulted ever. I get "well you did your best, after all you aren't a REAL healer" then the group looks for a cleric or FvS to fill the role.

Someone pointed out that this argument has been going on for four years. Really this isn't an argument at all. What this is is a bunch of people who are really tired of getting treated poorly for trying to play a class of character that everyone needs and isn't always easy to play. Guild clerics aren't guild because their runs are always smooth or sucessful. They are guild because they aren't going to get all the blame for a failure. A guild will discuss ways of overcoming the failure, change tactics and try again. A pug will throw some blame around and then disband.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Uh huh. I'll believe you. Thousands wouldn't.

Never been to amrath, too many alts so far and haven't hit high level content yet. I have struggled with funds with my cleric all the way to level 11 so far (got XP for 12 in the sands last night), and don't see an end in sight yet. I prefer to run in groups rather than grind loot to buy wands for you, so suck it up, buttercup.

Crazy thought. Focus on your main till you are 20, and money will never be an issue again. Seriously.