Practiced Spellcaster unbalancing or just right?

[noinfo]

multiclassing is already rediculously powerful... remove one of the cons and you're talking about serious unbalancing

Multiclassing some classes is. Multiclassing casters is rediculously underpowered.

[Letrii]

And spell pen

Oops, thought I was missing something.

[Aspenor]

Overpowered -
Earth Spell
Divine Metamagic
The Incantrix Prestige Class
The Shadowcraft Mage prestige class (specifically the Shadow Illusion feature)
Anything required for creating Pun-Pun
The 3.5 Artificer class, as written

Not overpowered -
Practiced Spellcaster

[Letrii]

They already have coded caster level increase with the Arcane Augmentation items. (Robe of Duality, etc.). So we know they can do it.

Making the feat choice sounds easy - simply have Practised Spellcaster feats for every casting class.

I'm not sure what there exact concerns are in terms of balancing. I'm guessing the DEVs have some kind of lingering multiclass phobia related to a barrage of forum rants by pure Paladins from ages ago.

If 4 is too powerful, simply make it 3 or 2. 2 would be similiar in power to the Spell Penetration feat. All would be mitigated by the fact you still can't increase your caster level beyond level cap.

Also, the capstones for arcane casters are quite powerful, so wouldn't adding this be balancing in a GOOD way?

My guess is they misunderstood how the feat works.

[flynnjsw]

While it would certainly make classes with other splashes a bit more prevalent; as the feat is written, I really don't see how it can be looked at as overpowered in the least. I would actually love to see this feat.

[Samiusbot]

The ease of coding the feat, however, is another issue altogether.

The combat log says what level the spell is at when you start to cast any given spell.
From a from a programing point of view it doesn't seam that hard to me.

The game already looks at your classes and the spell to find the class your casting from then applies heighten (if in use) to find your caster level for each spell at the time your casting.

How hard can it be to add a look for PSC feat for the class your spell is being cast from.
What is caster's current hit dice (level) and his caster level.
What is less hit caster's dice or caster level +4 use that as the base caster level for the spell.
Current code.

I mean it has to do some checks to give us that Casting X spell at lvl Y, right?

[Letrii]

Just remember, it is not a flat +4 to CL. It is up to +4 to CL, depending on how many other class levels you have besides the class to which this feat is applied.

[Happosaai]

This would be a very useful feat to add into the game. It is in no way overpowered. All the feat does is increase caster level. Yes, it would allow spells to do extra damage, last longer, or land when otherwise it wouldn't... but the increase is not very much at all.

The feat will increase a multi-classed caster's caster level by up to 4, not to exceed their character level.

This means a 2 Fighter / 1 Wizard would have a caster level of 3. He would not gain spell points or spells known as a 3rd level wizard.

A Wizard 18 / Rogue 2 would have a caster level of 20.

A Fighter 5 / Wizard 1 would have a caster level of 5. Again, no bonus spell points o spells known, just longer duration, higher SR checks, and in the case of a couple spells a little extra damage.

I am not seeing how this would be overpowered. It's a variable size caster level bonus, and costs a feat to get.

[Samiusbot]

Just remember, it is not a flat +4 to CL. It is up to +4 to CL, depending on how many other class levels you have besides the class to which this feat is applied.

You are right, I miss spoke above. Fixed!

Look for PSC feat for the class your spell is being cast from.
What is caster's current hit dice (level) and his caster level.
What is less hit caster's dice or caster level +4 use the smaller value as the base caster level for the spell.
Current code.


You want to use the smaller value as the base.

Level 7wiz/1clr the casting WoF would be like so.

Casting a wiz/sorc spell, have the PSC feat for Wiz? T/F

Casters total level == 8
caster lvl + PSC == 11

if (caster total level =< caster lvl + PSC)
use
else use caster lvl + PSC

[Angelus_dead]

I'm not sure what there exact concerns are in terms of balancing. I'm guessing the DEVs have some kind of lingering multiclass phobia related to a barrage of forum rants by pure Paladins from ages ago.

It would be logical to prohibit Paladin and Ranger casting from benefiting from Practiced Spellcaster, as the DDO versions of those classes already have twice the caster level as in D&D. However, even allowing it would not cause a balance problem, because the top levels of those classes now have sufficiently attractive features.

[Letrii]

Paladins and Rangers don't use half class level as caster level in DDO?

[Laith]

Paladins and Rangers don't use half class level as caster level in DDO?

nope, they get full caster level. if they got half, many of their buffs would be virtually useless (resist 20 until level22, for instance).

[Samiusbot]

I just went over the posts so far and I don't see examples of abuse yet. I see people that like the idea and people that don't but no real examples of imbalance.

Can anyone think of some really too good things to do with this feat?

[Aesop]

nope, they get full caster level. if they got half, many of their buffs would be virtually useless (resist 20 until level22, for instance).

I think that's one of the things in Pathfinder that I liked. Pally and Ranger were Caster level minus 4 instead of 1/2

Aesop


oh yeha

Practiced Spellcaster is not overpowered at all. just useful.

If everything useful was considered overpowered we would be stuck with Sword and Board and Ranged combat as the only useable Combat Styles.

Aesop

[Noctus]

There seem to be some misconceptions flying around on how Practiced Spellcaster works.

* It does notraise the number of spells you can cast per day (here SP)
* It does notraise the number of spells you know (here spellslots)
* It does not raise caster level over what a pure character could have.
* It does not influence spell DC in any way.


The effect is:
* Spells will last longer if they have a duration.
* Damaging spells will deal more damage.
* Spell Penetration will be higher.


If you splash on a character with Practiced Spellcaster you still loose:
* Spell Points
* Spell Slots
* Get new spell levels later, or never if you splash more than 2 or 3 levels.
* Spell DC (less levels to heighten to)
* miss out on the usefulness on what could have been another feat.
---> a splashed cater´s casting power is still diminished, compared to his pure colleague.



Everybody should know what the effects really are, before they pass judgment.

[transtemporal]

I don't think this feat is blatantly overpowered... but it may be a little unbalanced. Its most pronounced at the two ends of the levelling spectrum, and for different reasons.

At low level, the damage and duration benefits are most pronounced. They're increased by as much as 400% (for a 1wiz/4ftr) with the benefit going down the more caster levels you have. Here a 1wiz/4ftr with the right feats can output as much damage as a 5wiz with caster staples like Niac's Cold Ray, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp and Magic Missile. They don't have the sp or the spell selection of a 5wiz but they can put out comparable damage. I don't think this ones a big deal in the grand scheme of things. It gives a splash caster a decent damage and duration boost at low levels, that they'll quickly outgrow.

But at high level, a 16sor/2pal/2mnk (for example) basically gets a 4 point bonus to spell pen with this feat. Thats pretty substantial given that spell pen and greater spell pen give a combined bonus of 4. And if you build this right, you probably haven't sacrificed any DC and you have uber saves and evasion. Given the relatively lackluster 9th level spell selection, broken capstone and lack of PrE's, you're not giving up a lot really. That I think, is a little unbalanced.

That said, I think it could a toggleable metamagic with a modest cost, probably 10 to 15sp.

[noinfo]

I don't think this feat is blatantly overpowered... but it may be a little unbalanced. Its most pronounced at the two ends of the levelling spectrum, and for different reasons.



But at high level, a 16sor/2pal/2mnk (for example) basically gets a 4 point bonus to spell pen with this feat. Thats pretty substantial given that spell pen and greater spell pen give a combined bonus of 4. And if you build this right, you probably haven't sacrificed any DC and you have uber saves and evasion. Given the relatively lackluster 9th level spell selection, broken capstone and lack of PrE's, you're not giving up a lot really. That I think, is a little unbalanced.

That said, I think it could a toggleable metamagic with a modest cost, probably 10 to 15sp.

Of course you lose dc, you can only cast level 8 spells so a heighten spell is 8 not 9, provided you keep heighten because you have to find room for another feat (but who wouldn't) would you drop spell pen? quicken? max? Something in there has got to go and that is the ballance. And capstone has been fixed, bonus 20% I believe for sorcs now on top.

[winsom]

If that quote is one of the DDO Devs then he doesn't understand D&D or DDO game balance very well.

Practiced Spellcaster is not potentially imbalancing IF it is implemented correctly.

What this feat should amount to is extra spell duration (i.e. 3 minutes) or 3 extra dice of damage and +3 on caster level checks vs. spell resistance.

The character that takes Practiced Spell caster can only take it once per spell-casting class.

The final caster level is not allowed to be greater than the character's level. A wizard 18-Rogue 2 with Practiced Spell-Caster would have the spell slots of an 18th level wizard (unchanged) but his spells would cast at 20th level rather than 18th. He has to spend a feat to get that, so it is a fair trade-off.

Rangers and Paladins are supposed to cast at HALF class level rather than full class level. To cast a +4 Barkskin, I beleive that a ranger in D&D needs to be 18th level and not 9th as he is in DDO. It is silly when Devs talk about potential imbalance when they allow things like this. If this 18th level D&D ranger takes Practiced Spell-caster then his caster level would be 9 + 3 = 12th, which is enough for Barkskin +5.

11th level Rangers and Paladins are not supposed to be able to cast Resist Energy 30. The should have to be 22nd level or slightly lower with Practiced Spell-caster. I do not think that 11th DDO Rangers and Paladins being able to do Resist 30 is broken. It really doesn't matter in game. But it is a LOT more powerful than adding a Practiced Spell-caster feat into DDO. Being able to cast +4 and +5 barkskins at mid-level is a bit over-powered though. Druids are allowed to have +5 barkskins as they cast at full level. Rangers typically not because they cast at 1/2 level in D&D. But that point is moot when turbine devs add stacking Dodge +2, +3 and +4 items in the game. That ruins the AC game balance more than super-ranger barkskin.

[KristovK]

The only thing I can think of that would make PC overpowered are game engine mechanics.

My GUESS would be that in order to actually give a player +4 to their caster level the game would actually GIVE them 4 levels of that particular class in the engine. That would give them the extra spells/level, extra spell points, and increase DCs, and THAT would indeed be overpowered.

Mind you, this is only a guess but it's the ONLY thing I can see that would make this an overpowering feat.

Personally, I've been wondering why this feat wasn't included years ago, it's a feat anyone who does a Caster/non-Caster or ACaster/DCaster multi in PnP, especially with builds like the Mystic Theurge PrC. And this is the ONLY thing I can imagine that would be holding them back, since we know for a fact that they can increase specifics in a caster's power, ie - DC, effective caster level, spell pen, and spell points.

[Samiusbot]

Thank you for your examples. Keep them coming.

I don't see how a 16sor/2pal/2mnk casting the his spells at level 20 is all that overpowering. Or so strong that the feat should become toggle.

What FoD is almost as good as a full caster, almost. The few examples I have seen are 16casting class and 4 levels of other. But I don't see how compared with losing the capstone and the 3rd tear PrE, the top level spells and SP and costing a feat, how any of these 16/x are over powered.

I am still have hope that I will see an example that makes me go, okay that is broken!

Also I was talking to some friends in game, and someone said “I would love to see an overpowering example from the Devs.”

So please if a Dev is reading this jump in with an example please. Pm me whatever!

Thanks for you time all, and if you think of an example please let us know, I for one am super hopeful that this feat will be reconsidered and someday soon added to my game.