Why the constant tinkering, Devs?

[Zenako]

Got a 26 out of 30

27 here, chose not to spend too long trying to descramble one word into another (assuming its the same test each time...) and missed most of those...all the math were pretty straightforward....

back to normal topic....

[Horrorscope]

If quite a few players are leaving and all report that they find a certain aspect of the game too difficult, or annoying, of course Turbine is going to tinker with it.

And if any one can't understand that, then they don't understand the true realities at work here.

I am of the belief if many changes were in since day one, old timers would be defending them. And if they had an update to CC to make it like it is right now, those old timers wouldn't be happy. It all comes down to a state of mind and just getting it all twisted at the slightest bend.

[Ghoste]

Without constant tinkering/balancing/re-balancing the game, any game, would grow stale, fast.

Tinkering can make things fresh. This specific tinkering does the opposite.

Seriously! That's like saying: "tired of running the same stuff over and over? Ok, we'll make things fresher by making it that much easier for you to run the same stuff over and over. What?! Doesn't that give you more to do? Huh?"

[Cedwin]

Complete nonsense. Tinkering does not make a game fresh. New content in the form of quests, abilities, classes, and races does. You don't see people exclaiming wow the game is so fun and new now that my CC works differently!

Tinkering certainly keeps the forums fresh.

[Ghoste]

Tinkering certainly keeps the forums fresh.

This much I think we can all agree on. Lol.

[Horrorscope]

but the changes they have made (with the exception of the abomination, Dungeon Alert) seem to make the game better.

I left in the height of lag to return to near lag free. We were told it was because of DA. Are we not agreeing that is the reason? If not, then what are we attributing to the major reduction in lag? If it is because of DA, imo the lag reduction simply blows whatever inconveniences DA may cause from time to time. If there is a bug or a tweak needed for DA, then do it, don't scrap it. Whatever helped the lag, has to be the #1 improvement this past year. Thee #1 improvement.

[Horrorscope]

" Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
Without constant tinkering/balancing/re-balancing the game, any game, would grow stale, fast."

Complete nonsense. Tinkering does not make a game fresh. New content in the form of quests, abilities, classes, and races does. You don't see people exclaiming wow the game is so fun and new now that my CC works differently!

That is definitely an opinion not shared by all. I love improvements. There have been a ton since day one, a ton, lets not forget that. If they can make gameplay changes to make the game even deeper than that is really exciting because that just effected every quest in the entire game. Now if they make the wrong one's the same can be said in the opposite. But without a doubt it doesn't only mean new content for this guy. Why do we sit here and not think DDO was a purest version of PnP DnD? It has never been that.

[Ghoste]

but the changes they have made (with the exception of the abomination, Dungeon Alert) seem to make the game better.

Qualitative statement. Only thing I have seen yet that is making a case for the tinkering.

Yes, obviously this has made the game better for some people. "Better" based off of what you want out of the game. If you want it to be easier, then nobody can argue that "dumbing it down" is a bad thing for you. But since not everybody wants that, it can neither be argued that it is universally a good thing.

[Borror0]

So I've been running with all these new players, some suck, some are great, most are in between and am not seeing this horror story of wipes.

If I keep quiet and don't hold hands in a PUG, I know I'll have to work harder to get the quest to finish most of the time. And, here's the thing. "Hardcore gamers" are in it for the tough challenge. Failing a few times for us is annoying, but overall makes the game more fun. For casual, failing is a bigger deal in that, if it happens too often, they'll just quit.

That's the big difference: we also have a different definition of "horror story".

Ah, so you think they should just take all cc spells out all together...because we have freedom of movement?

I'm saying we're already immune to a fair deal of those spells, thanks to FoM.

EDIT:

Complete nonsense.

No it's not. It's known fact that games that constantly mess with the game balance last longer than those who don't. (If I can find the study in question, I'll PM you the link if you want but, regardless, it's an accepted fact among game designers.)

[Ghoste]

" Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
Without constant tinkering/balancing/re-balancing the game, any game, would grow stale, fast."




That is definitely an opinion not shared by all. I love improvements. There have been a ton since day one, a ton, lets not forget that. If they can make gameplay changes to make the game even deeper than that is really exciting because that just effected every quest in the entire game. Now if they make the wrong one's the same can be said in the opposite. But without a doubt it doesn't only mean new content for this guy. Why do we sit here and not think DDO was a purest version of PnP DnD? It has never been that.

Of the changes listed in this thread as tinkering, list one thing that you honestly believe is bringing some freshness to the game, as opposed to just being the same old stuff but easier to do (and yes, we know they have added new stuff, and yes, many of us complaining about the tinkering are quite thrilled about some of the other announcements).

And nobody was saying anything about this needing to be more like PnP. Bringing that up is a strawman, and nothing more.

[Ghoste]

I'm saying we're already immune to a fair deal of those spells, thanks to FoM.

You seem to be missing a big point. Nobody is saying they are changing things from impossible to deal with to possible. All you have done is explain how they were possible to deal with before, and are still possible to deal with. But that's not a point anybody has even attempted to argue with you.

Of course every spell on the list has always been possible to cope with. So in bringing up that same point over and over, how do you think that leads to the conclusion that the devs making the same stuff even easier to deal with is not in fact making it easier to deal with, but leaving it just as hard?

[Horrorscope]

Of the changes listed in this thread as tinkering, list one thing that you honestly believe is bringing some freshness to the game, as opposed to just being the same old stuff but easier to do (and yes, we know they have added new stuff, and yes, many of us complaining about the tinkering are quite thrilled about some of the other announcements).

And nobody was saying anything about this needing to be more like PnP. Bringing that up is a strawman, and nothing more.

PnP and Purists have been brought up since the release of the notes. I like the potential of some of the holds working different, happy that all effects can wear off over time, I do play with hirelings some times, so looks like they are continuing to improve. If you can't hack Normal, you now have a Casual setting, for those people they have to be pretty excited with that tinkering. Some tinkers with Rangers/Monks have to make those people happy, no? I didn't just look at the list but I can probably find some more.

[Borror0]

All you have done is explain how they were possible to deal with before

No. I said how it's possible to make it so like these spells didn't exist before and still don't.

[Junts]

Ah, so you think they should just take all cc spells out all together...because we have freedom of movement? Otherwise, you're saying what...there's no difference in the impact they have on the game?

Seriously, why did you even say that?

borr has long supported removing freedom and wf hold immunities so that we have to care.

[Ghoste]

No. I said how it's possible to make it so like these spells didn't exist before and still don't.

More antics with semantics. Tell me how a party without Freedom of Movement is supposed to make it so it's like feeblemind doesn't exist (or even with it for feeblemind)? How about otto's irresistable dance? Or dancing sphere? Mindblast? Domination?

Of course you can just get a cleric with Freedom of Movement, but like I said, that is a way of dealing with it. As helpful as freedom of movement was before (and it still doesn't cover all these spells, just some of them), it is becoming less necessary. So are decent saves.

But that's not dumbing it down, because everbody always plays with a babysitter, er cleric, in the party at all times.

Again, nobody is saying these spells were impossible to deal with. You tell me how you deal with them. Brilliant. Your own solution that you list is going to become less of a necessity. Those who forget to come prepared will be fine, because it's been dumbed down for their sake.

[Ghoste]

borr has long supported removing freedom and wf hold immunities so that we have to care.

And to do that would be making the game harder. Not a judgment, just a fact.

So how does he explain that bringing everyone closer to being immune to a lot of this (and I reiterate that FoM does not cover all these things) is not dumbing it down? That's all I'm asking of him, and he keeps playing word games.

[Borror0]

But that's not dumbing it down, because everbody always plays with a babysitter, er cleric, in the party at all times.

Pretty much, yes. If not, the odds of having a bard, a ranger or a favored soul in the party to take care of FoM are also pretty good. Basically, it's not "dumbing down" because you have to go outside of normal gameplay for the change to have significant facilitating effect.

And to do that would be making the game harder.

Yes. That's the whole point behind the change.

[Ghoste]

Pretty much, yes. If not, the odds of having a bard, a ranger or a favored soul in the party to take care of FoM are also pretty good. Basically, it's not "dumbing down" because you have to go outside of normal gameplay for the change to have significant facilitating effect.

But you still have spells they are changing that the babysitter can't protect you from.

Yes. That's the whole point behind the change.

So to go from A to B is making it harder, but to go from B to A is not making it easier?

I will refer you to recent posts by Borroro to refute your claim that there is any point to the change, because as long as there is any possibility of dealing with any circumstance you are not making it easier or harder. It is in fact impossible to do so unless you are talking about the difference between possible and impossible to deal with. Trust me on this, Borroro himself says so.

[Cyr]

No it's not. It's known fact that games that constantly mess with the game balance last longer than those who don't. (If I can find the study in question, I'll PM you the link if you want but, regardless, it's an accepted fact among game designers.)

Yet I still say complete nonsense. You love semantics Borro so here is one for you. How does tinkering make a game not go stale? Or is it that games that have active development are more likely to have tinkering going on alongside new content?

Just because something tends to occur when something else occurs does not make it a cause and effect relationship.

[Ghoste]

Pretty much, yes. If not, the odds of having a bard, a ranger or a favored soul in the party to take care of FoM are also pretty good.

And this...this is only true if you play the game exactly as Turbine designed it to be played. This logic fails as soon as you're talking about soloing, short manning, or just plain grabbing whoever's available.

And speaking of odds, you seriously think that the odds are pretty high of not only having someone in the group that has this as a class spell, but that they will also have it prepared, and that they will also always cast it on the party ahead of time?

The reality of that is just a teensey bit different than theory. Very different if you PuG. Ever.