The problem with wizards...

[Jorgandar]

Is that they are a caster with no magic. Or at least, not enough to last very long and therefore they have to be very conservative with their SP, especially on longer quests.

Of course wizards need a down side compared to the sorc's, and that downside is half the SP. But that's quite harsh IMO. It makes them stand around doing very little in most battles because of their constant need to conserve SP. Having a caster with no magic sucks.

A variety and a selection of spells does you no good if you lack the SP to cast them.

My recommendation for DDO: To hell with the rules. They weren't designed for an MMO. Let wizards at least have a better BAB (or whatever its called) with weapons so that in the common instance that they have no magic, or are trying to conserve their tiny SP pool, they dont stand around doing nothing.

All this is my opinion. Feel free to flame me, but you know i'm right. No other class is forced to stand around doing nothing.

Their tiny SP pool is such a disadvantage, only when DDO implements about twice as many spells as there are now would having a wizard be worth it, so sorcs would have to make serious and difficult choices, rather than laughable choices ("hmmm..do i get haste or fog cloud? such a dilemna...").

[Kalari]

Not going to flame you I understand your frustrations when I went threw my first wizard I thought the same.

But a wizard can teach you sp management, which spells are worth slinging and if your really careful you can do other things. My elf wizards can use weapons like raipers with no penalty so I am in the process of crafting them some for back up if they run out of sp.

Then you have warforge wizards which I have and its nice to run and heal myself not worrying other healers yet utilizing spells like debuffing, immobilizing and crowd control then blasting if needed.

Playing a wizard is more strategic then just powering threw like sorcery as far as im concerned and even though ive gotten a sorceror to 16 now I just dont feel as I have as much fun as I do my wizards and I guess im just strange like that. I think that many people think of the spell pool as a fault I think it is good training. But perhaps im just weird.

[tfangel]

I feel it too, and get really envious when i see the casting speed and sp of sorcerers.

I
A variety and a selection of spells does you no good if you lack the SP to cast them.

This is another part of the problem, while i enjoy the variety of spells, most end up with the same selection as sorcs with a couple extra, usually repair spells. There are complaints about effectiveness of spells, especially at high end, so you stick to certain ones. I've heard it said that start on a wizard to learn the spells and how to conserve sp, then 'graduate' to a sorc. There does need to be more a reason to want to play wizards though, if that's more spells, more variety in quests that swapping spells is important, or whatever.

Since they've been offering those sp potions in the store though, i tend to carry a large amount of them while soloing.

[Memnir]

I'm waiting for the PrEs to reevaluate the Wizard class. But, and for all of the reasons you mentioned, Sorcerers are by and large the superior arcane spell casters. I am hoping that the PrEs will help the Wizard by giving them more identity and diversity, or at the very least some relevant skills to make them a more viable option.

(I also think that Wizards should get more/bonus SPs from Wizardry items... but that is a lost argument...)

[Sneakyfoot]

Hi there. I have to disagree with you, wizards at higher level, with the right equipment such as shroud items have plenty of spell points really. It's actually pretty balanced, as wizards get the extra +2 to int at end game. My wizards has I think 2300 spell points, thats with shroud item, vod bracers, and high int, but he does very well in all the quests, and infact is very powerful.

I have a sorc as well, and though he fun to play, and has lot more spell points, not being able to change out the spells can hurt.....in my opinion, a wizard if played right can do alot more with all the different spells he can choose from at almost anytime......



- Morvion -

Is that they are a caster with no magic. Or at least, not enough to last very long and therefore they have to be very conservative with their SP, especially on longer quests.

Of course wizards need a down side compared to the sorc's, and that downside is half the SP. But that's quite harsh IMO. It makes them stand around doing very little in most battles because of their constant need to conserve SP. Having a caster with no magic sucks.

A variety and a selection of spells does you no good if you lack the SP to cast them.

My recommendation for DDO: To hell with the rules. They weren't designed for an MMO. Let wizards at least have a better BAB (or whatever its called) with weapons so that in the common instance that they have no magic, or are trying to conserve their tiny SP pool, they dont stand around doing nothing.

All this is my opinion. Feel free to flame me, but you know i'm right. No other class is forced to stand around doing nothing.

Their tiny SP pool is such a disadvantage, only when DDO implements about twice as many spells as there are now would having a wizard be worth it, so sorcs would have to make serious and difficult choices, rather than laughable choices ("hmmm..do i get haste or fog cloud? such a dilemna...").

[dv8maker123]

At higher levels and with the right gear mana is not an issue. At lower levels it can be a bit tougher, but my advice is to use the rest shrines wisely, and take the mnemonics as rewards when they are made available. Also, bring a good weapon to use when spells are not an option (ranged or melee depending on your build).

Without even using pots I tend to have plenty of mana for elite dungeons. I don't have enough to run around maximized and empowered 100% of the time like sorcs do, but I have no complaints. I'll take the versatility over the extra SPs any day.

[nat_1]

My recommendation for DDO: To hell with the rules. They weren't designed for an MMO. Let wizards at least have a better BAB (or whatever its called) with weapons so that in the common instance that they have no magic, or are trying to conserve their tiny SP pool, they dont stand around doing nothing.

See: Divine Power clickies. Raise your BAB.

Master's Touch means you can equip any martial weapon you find in a chest or as a steal from the AH. You can have a more mob appropriate weapon than the party Kensai, meaning you are potentially more useful even before you get to spells. (Ever run Dalera's with a Holy Q-staff while the rest of the party has piercing and slashing weapons? +4 to hit doesn't help if you can't bypass DR)

DP + MT = stop standing around.

Solo, get a tower shield and stand in a corner while WoF. Group, see above and melee while standing in WoF.

[karnokvolrath]

This might be a little off topic but it may help you. I usally keep two scepters in each hand for the damage boosts to my spells, but if i know the quest and know the trash are spread apart ill often drink a str pot and switch to a weapon. Your damage will be low and you wont hit often, but a weapon such as a paralizer will stop the mob dead in its tracks, allowing you to run to the next and let a dpser take down the immobilized mob with ease. Some quests dont allow this very well, but ive found just displace yourself and move fast, give it a try, it may or may not work for you, but at least you will feel like your doing....something....when not firewalling.

-edit - as noted earlier, divine power clickies, even master touch (scroll it if ya gotta).

[Battleworm]

I'm waiting for the PrEs to reevaluate the Wizard class. But, and for all of the reasons you mentioned, Sorcerers are by and large the superior arcane spell casters. I am hoping that the PrEs will help the Wizard by giving them more identity and diversity, or at the very least some relevant skills to make them a more viable option.

(I also think that Wizards should get more/bonus SPs from Wizardry items... but that is a lost argument...)

Wizards would be bettered by having spells only a wizard can have.And i Agree!

[Lithic]

Wizards would be bettered by having spells only a wizard can have.And i Agree!

If every spell level had 10+ spells that were at least situationally usefull, then wizards would be on much more even footing. Similarly, if sorcs did not have their double casting speed, then wizards would be on even footing.

As things are now, there is little point to being a wizard.

[Battleworm]

Except for the past life feat,which people are crying overpowered about.Guess after they nerf this,There really will be no point in making a wizard.Shame.

[Baahb3]

After playing one of each to high levels the SP issue has gone to the wayside IMO. At lower levels it can be a pain but you just have to adjust your casting style especially if you are going to Wizard after playing a Sorcerer.

The abilty to swap out spells, capstone and extra feats make up the difference in SPs IMO.

Sorcerer's should have more spell points, in PnP they can cast 2 more spells of every level, just add add up the base costs of spells and you get over 500sp more than a wizard.

The only thing that still gets me is the casting speed, both classes should be able to cast the same spell in the same amount of time, I really don't understand why this is so.

[bandyman1]

Meh...I'll disagree with a lot of the sentement here;

Wizards are fine. Why?

Greater versitility. And yes, being able to cherry pick spells before each quest is an advantage.

Better feat selection. There's just noway around it. Wizards get their metas for free. I see a lot of sorc-builders advocating throwing build points into Dex for reflex saves. Wizards will just burn one of the 3-4 feats they get over a sorc on Insightful reflexes and call it a day. Force of Personality you say??? Both arcane classes have Will as a primary save. It's very easy to reach a mid-high 20s will save on a caster without it.

The Cha=UMD argument was made a lot in the past, but with GS items prevelent, it's easy to reach a viable UMD level on a wizard now, so this one's moot.

Highest DCs. Wizard wins.


To anwser this, sorcs get faster casting and more SPs. It's a trade-off.

But both arcane classes are viable.

[Kalari]

Thank you Bandy I get the Wizard class is not for everyone heck I get heckled by guildies (lovingly so) Because I still prefer my wizards to my sorcerer's they are (3 to 2) for my 5 arcanes with all threw of my wizards at cap while my sorcerer's are slowly making their way there.

I hear things like "oh now that youve had a taste of sorcerer I bet you'll never want to play your wizard.."

And I think they dont believe me when I say "no thats not the case." Its a personal choice and just like I respect those who think sorcerer's are better I respectfully disagree.

To me when played right a wizard is a valuable assets to a party the ability to swap out spells when needed for the situation. The ability to carry most if not all the buffs needed for quests and raids (specially if there are no bards present) Debuffing, Imobilization spells, meta magics that boost your elemental spells?

Point blank played smart a wizard can be very viable at any level. If you play your wizard expecting to be like a sorcerer then your going to be disappointed. To me tactics and strategy make this class fun. And not limiting yourself to just your mana, There is a reason the wizard main stat is Intelligence. It is a thinkers class. You run out of sp? That is not the end of the world every race has a weapons proficiency and even if its just simple weapons there are nice daggers a wizard can use to defend themselves. My human wizard has a +4 banisher of pure good I used that on elite coal chamber when it was too long between getting to the one shrine in there and the fights. And I did well helping clear trash.

Its about using your character fully and not letting the class icon fool you, wizards dont have to mean just slinging spells.

[Murgatroyd]

Wizards = surgical strikes
Sorcerer = carpet bombing

[Xyfiel]

Try picking three level six spells, it is the hardest choice of any Sorc. Wizards don't have that problem.

Reconstruct=needed for end game to heal wf tanks
fts=needed for end game, many things have death immunity
disintegrate=best untyped damage spell
gh=because scrolling it for a full party sucks(bards handle it for raids)
acid fog=damage, concealment, and slow

Wizards, they get all five.

[Emili]

Meh...I'll disagree with a lot of the sentement here;

Wizards are fine. Why?

Greater versitility. And yes, being able to cherry pick spells before each quest is an advantage.

That in itself is a blessing and a curse… you enter the quest and are expected to buff party - they know you have the buffs you deny them they get sore, so you start your round of resists, blur, stoneskin, GH… etc… and by the time you actually start to play the quest you’re 1/3rd your mana-bar depleted.

There are good spells for a wizard that a sorc just would consider a “nicety” – more specialized – problem though is there are not enough of them. Just the fact that a sorc can make do with the spells they have and still walk out of the quest with mana to spare tells us so.

Better feat selection. There's just noway around it. Wizards get their metas for free. I see a lot of sorc-builders advocating throwing build points into Dex for reflex saves. Wizards will just burn one of the 3-4 feats they get over a sorc on Insightful reflexes and call it a day. Force of Personality you say??? Both arcane classes have Will as a primary save. It's very easy to reach a mid-high 20s will save on a caster without it.

Quite true wizards are better feated – they have 5 overall for those metas … yet metas burn more sp, so you must be very astute in their use, thus you toggle them depending on what works. AND the meta toggle bug may bite… charging you mana points and not yielding the benefits.

The Cha=UMD argument was made a lot in the past, but with GS items prevelent, it's easy to reach a viable UMD level on a wizard now, so this one's moot.

You do find more sorc (firing heal scrolls mid air between casts) have easily usable umd then wizards - thus why many wizard builds are based upon WF - to gain self sufficiency. UMD on a wizard is more item intensive point blank a sorc with 36+ umd from just a shroud item is easy to get to … the wizard must give up more slots to do so. Note #1 See below.

Highest DCs. Wizard wins.

Capstones? - DC +1/less costly metas vs higher damaging spells ... really a toss up when you think about it... the sorc’s main damage spells do more dps, plain and simple.

To anwser this, sorcs get faster casting and more SPs. It's a trade-off.

The only thing that still gets me is the casting speed, both classes should be able to cast the same spell in the same amount of time, I really don't understand why this is so.

This shows most when you have a group comprising both wizard and sorcerer. Your typical sorc fires off spells near two to one the wiz… often the two play odds against each other on the cast … annoying the wizard sometimes, this is where you tend to sit back a little and take a different approach then the sorc.

But both arcane classes are viable.

I’ve said this before numerous times when these threads appear… near every great wizard I knew/know can also play a great sorcerer but the reverse is not true at all. Looking at it in this perspective means to me that the wizard is a harder play character class then the sorcerer. Takes more control, takes more patients and more study on the players part to make it shine.

Note #1, Now I know there are plenty amply well suited well played arcanes of many races... but do you not feel the synergy of the WF plus Reconstruct (the WF wizard) echoes with the player base view of self healing and shows some astute amount of displacement on the viability and contradiction of how Turbine took favored class as some sort of bonus?

[Superspeed_Hi5]

To answer the OP it also doesnt help that generally everyone in the party wants the Wiz to cast the following on them: Displacement (Extended) or Blur, Greater Heroism, Resists, Elemental Protection, Stoneskin (mad expensive), Haste (extended) and sometimes even Jump and Tumble.

Depending on how many SP he started with casting all these on a full party generally leaves the Wiz with less than half their blue bar. Then you expect the Wiz to lay down crowd control, re-haste and finger certain trash mobs.

So if you want your wiz to not stand around with no blue bar you can either a) toss him a mnemonic elixer and hope he gets the high end of blue back; b) thank him for the buffs and keep him alive because while he may have run out of SP those buffs he dropped on you are possibly still running and helping you kill more efficiently; c) carry Pots of Resists, Jump, Heroism ( i know no GH pots lame) and let him CC and burn things instead of being your little buff bot.

I mean it really chaffes my rear when people want you to buff them all the time then complain while you stand around making them into harcore killers.

[Ash]

Not going to flame you I understand your frustrations when I went threw my first wizard I thought the same.

But a wizard can teach you sp management, which spells are worth slinging and if your really careful you can do other things.

Good post, I agree.
Now read my signature: Those not smart enough...

[Kriogen]

It looks like casters PrEs will bring at-will spells. I think, Wizards should be able to swap at-will spell just like they can swap spells in spell book. Sorc fixed, Wizards can swap.

It would be nice, if etheral wands (or standard wands) would also be boosted by metamagic. Aren't Wizards the real 'crafters' in DnD?

It would be nice, if Tenser would not block casting. Makes that spell useless.