A suggestion to fix Defensive Fighting

[Ranmaru2]

I was looking around the 3.5 SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tumble_Skill & http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm & http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#tumble) and found an interesting tidbit about tumble and its effect on fighting defensively, or as it's known in DDO - Defensive Fighting and started thinking about how we could maybe implement this to help out this feat that rarely sees the light of day.

SRD:

Special

If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 25 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +5 dodge bonus when fighting defensively instead. Increase this dodge bonus by +1 for every 10 additional ranks above 25 you have.

One of the issues that has long been said to the Devs is that skills don't really mean much in this game if it isn't of the following:

Search, Disable, Open Locks, Use Magic Device, and Balance (Recent addition: Intimidate)

Honorable Mentions: Tumble, Concentration, Hide/Move Silently, and Spot/Listen

The bottom five or six are situational/player specific and aren't as called for as the above 5, and when I found the above SRD quote, I thought that it might be a way to give a boost to the usefulness of a skill and a feat.

Defensive Fighting is pretty much deactivated from using anything but a regular gulping animation potion, so, so this still doesn't make it an absolute end all is all plus for the feat.

The question comes into play though as to where we might cap this off so as to not make Combat Expertise become a relic feat only viewed in a museum, thus I propse the following, divide Defensive Fighting into a Tier like structure with different activation levels like Trap the Soul has. It could work something like the following:

Tier I
---------------
+2-4 AC at -4 to hit

Tier II
---------------
+5-6 at -6 to hit

Tier III
---------------
+7-9 at -8 to hit

Considering the final tier would be VERY hard to hit at a constant rate, it allows for the extremes for the feat to be reached while also not allowing it to be fully overpowered and replacing Combat Expertise for a +7-9 at -4 to hit.

What does everyone think?

[sephiroth1084]

Why?

[Ranmaru2]

Why not?

[MasterBurik]

One of the issues that has long been said to the Devs is that skills don't really mean much in this game if it isn't of the following:

Search, Disable, Open Locks, Use Magic Device, and Balance

Intimidate, forgot you did. Important skill, it is.

But seriously, why would this be implemented? I have had no problem with having a great AC, and no one really should.
Besides, I wouldnt want the extra AC at the risk of even more Hit loss.

Crazy, you must be.

[Ranmaru2]

Intimidate, forgot you did. Important skill, it is.

But seriously, why would this be implemented? I have had no problem with having a great AC, and no one really should.
Besides, I wouldnt want the extra AC at the risk of even more Hit loss.

I'll edit the original to include that, but that skill wasn't even called for by the community at large until they recently started using it a lot, just like when the Rangers got tempest and ram's might.

This is something that could:
1) Bring more variety and rely on less cookie cutter.
2) Help new players who might not have started with 12 intelligence allowing their characters to become useful at high level if they use tumble.
3) Allow a feat that everyone gets to have a place outside of just being included on the list of feats everyone gets at BAB 1.
4) Make the feat more viable in the leveling process instead of waiting for when you can get Combat Expertise and use it without significant BAB loss.
5) Make skills seem more viable and give tumble another use to players other than 1) twitch based players who utilize it to dodge and 2) preventing falling damage
6) Allow more Pen and Paper aspects to come into the game (since the player base on the forums is always quick to pounce on how unlike PnP some change is or will be...

You may not want the -to hit for higher ac, but some would like the option (Improved Combat Expertise has been mentioned for a while and asked to be implemented). It could help builds who might not be able to fit CE in there or would like to tread different waters to find other ways to reach viable AC while bringing other strengths to the party.

[MasterBurik]

So when you say tier, you mean enhancements, right?

If so, thats not the best idea, as many classes are AP starved already.




Besides, being Feat starved is also a problem (not denying it, as it is), however thats a important part of PnP DnD as well.

[Ranmaru2]

No I don't mean enhancements. Have you used Trap the Soul? You click the spell and then it pops up 3 different activation icons. They could make it where you click on defensive fighting and then you choose one or place all three on your hot bar to pick from them as your tumble skill increases, or based on the necessity of to-hit in the current situation.

[sephiroth1084]

Why not?

Because it conflicts with CE--in most of the current instances where one would be in CE mode, they can either hit on a 2 currently anyway (and that likely won't change with the further penalty), or are intimitanking and maybe shiled blocking, in which case their attack bonus doesn't matter.

And because the amount of coding required (even if it isn't much) would not be warrented given how little use this would get--people without CE likely wouldn't be using this anyway, since they'd want to be hitting and dealing damage (PA), and their AC may not increase by enough to matter anyway.

Finally, it likely wouldn't encourage anyone to take more Tumble if they weren't already planning to anyway.

[Ranmaru2]

Because it conflicts with CE--in most of the current instances where one would be in CE mode, they can either hit on a 2 currently anyway (and that likely won't change with the further penalty), or are intimitanking and maybe shiled blocking, in which case their attack bonus doesn't matter.

The conflict with Combat Expertise was the reasoning for dividing it into a tier aspect in the first place so that it doesn't completely phase out the Combat Expertise feat. With the Devs' new direction of wanting to increase mob AC, you're currently left with completely deactivating your AC bonus or keeping it on and hoping for crit confirmation. This allows for people to actually take an incremental bonus that might allow the developers to get creative with different mob types.

And because the amount of coding required (even if it isn't much) would not be warrented given how little use this would get--people without CE likely wouldn't be using this anyway, since they'd want to be hitting and dealing damage (PA), and their AC may not increase by enough to matter anyway.

Why wouldn't this get much use? If builds can't fit in CE or would fall short from the stat distribution to being viable in something more than before, why wouldn't they use this? Perhaps the amount between higher dodge intervals is too much for DDO..let's say it goes: 5, 15 and every 10 beyond that then?

Finally, it likely wouldn't encourage anyone to take more Tumble if they weren't already planning to anyway.

Why wouldn't it?

So far the argument is that because YOU wouldn't use it, no one would. Not true at all.

[sephiroth1084]

For one thing, excluding epic content and a few select creatures, no one would have any problem with a -8 attack bonus. So, this would be better than CE, something which requires ability points and a feat.


Now, I believe you were implying that the higher your Tumble, the better the bonus... If that is the case, it would have to be Tumble ranks to mean anything at all, and then no one would be able to benefit from it since Tumble is not a class skill for most of the classes who would actually gain any benefit from the AC bonus. If it's dependent upon total bonus, then the whole idea of making Tumble more attractive is completely wasted, as 25-39 points of Tumble can be obtained via items and spells.

If we follow the SRD, then no one would ever benefit from the higher bonuses, as we currently cap out at 23 ranks at level 20. -4 attack for +3 AC is only marginally more useful than Defensive Fighting is now, and leaves CE as still being better. Unless you're doubling both the penalty and bonus at each "tier" (how do those work exactly), then it just overshadows the more expensive ability. And if you get to pick and choose which tier to use, it also ends up being better than CE.

We already have a place for CE. Characters who want higher AC, take the steps necessary to get it. What's wrong with that? If monks and paladins can fit it in, there's no reason that anyone else who desires AC can't.

[Ranmaru2]

Yes I'm looking more at the higher your tumble skills and items versus ranks.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes I'm looking more at the higher your tumble skills and items versus ranks.

Was that a sentence? If it was, I fail to take your meaning.

[Ranmaru2]

Was that a sentence? If it was, I fail to take your meaning.

They could modify the Tumble 25 ranks to be:

Tier I -4 to hit
-------------
Requires: tumble 5-14 (+3), tumble 15-29 (+4)

Tier II
-------------
Requires: Tumble 30-39 (+5, -5 to hit), Tumble 40-49 (+6, -6 to hit)

Tier III
-------------
Requires Tumble 50-59 (+7, -7 to hit), Tumble 60+ (+8, -8 to hit)

The tiers work based on the amount of tumble you have, and the feat is like Trap the Soul. You click on it on the hot bar and pick which one to use, or drag the icons onto your hot bar to activate whatever tier.

[sephiroth1084]

They could modify the Tumble 25 ranks to be:

Tier I -4 to hit
-------------
Requires: tumble 5-14 (+3), tumble 15-29 (+4)

Tier II
-------------
Requires: Tumble 30-39 (+5, -5 to hit), Tumble 40-49 (+6, -6 to hit)

Tier III
-------------
Requires Tumble 50-59 (+7, -7 to hit), Tumble 60+ (+8, -8 to hit)

The tiers work based on the amount of tumble you have, and the feat is like Trap the Soul. You click on it on the hot bar and pick which one to use, or drag the icons onto your hot bar to activate whatever tier.

So, you want an investiture of a portion of an item slot, and begging a few spells from the party caster/bard/ranger to be MUCH better than a feat slot and ability score investment? No, that is totally ridiculous.

The option of being able to select the bonus and penalty makes it infinitely better than CE, even before considering the higher bonuses being provided.

If you were stuck with the highest bonus/penalty, and the penalty were around 2x the bonus, then it might be reasonable coding it, though even then, I'd be dubious.

Would I like being able to build tanks without needing an 11 or 12 starting Int? Sure. Would it be nice to not have to take a feat? Sure. But I really don't think phasing out a feat in favor of some fairly pointless buff to the utility of Tumble is worthwhile, even if it didn't require coding.

Look at it this way:
1 rank
+10 spell
+15 item
+4 GH
+2 Head
+2 song
+5 Dex
________
= CE
That doesn't make Tumble any more useful to invest ranks in, it just makes the Thief-Acrobat necklace more valuable.

[Ranmaru2]

Just because you stand around like a pillar and don't tumble during battle doesn't mean everyone else stands around like a pillar to make every cleric angry.

It's an option and if they could implement this option, then it'd be quite easy to find a way to copy it to Combat Expertise, which would in turn not make Combat Expertise useless and might even help improve the option of taking Power Attack at lower levels if you're not a barbarian. Putting two and two together yet?

It would make those people who tumble faster feel like they made a good investment.

[sephiroth1084]

Just because you stand around like a pillar and don't tumble during battle doesn't mean everyone else stands around like a pillar to make every cleric angry.

It's an option and if they could implement this option, then it'd be quite easy to find a way to copy it to Combat Expertise, which would in turn not make Combat Expertise useless and might even help improve the option of taking Power Attack at lower levels if you're not a barbarian. Putting two and two together yet?

It would make those people who tumble faster feel like they made a good investment.

I have totally lost any understanding of what you're talking about. And I don't think you're following me.

Combat Expertise doesn't need to grant any higher an AC bonus, as it is already pretty powerful. A lot of people take Power Attack early on without a problem.

I'm fairly certain that the folks who have spent the points in Tumble ranks either feel that they have made a good investment, or knew before hand that they were doing so just for fun.

Part of what my last post showed, was that there still would be no reason to invest in ranks even with this change, because one would very easily be able to get a 40 Tumble with just a few skill points and a bunch of buffs and items, most of which are fairly common anyway.

There's no reason to bother buffing a free feat everyone gets to be more useful than a feat people have to invest in. Is anyone else clamoring for this? Not that I've seen.

[Ranmaru2]

Well how about increasing the penalties at higher increments? Like I've said I'm not trying to make Combat Expertise inferior. Think about casters and healers who could use this at times between doing any CC/healing.

and I've spoken to people in game on my server who approve of this and think some more variety might be a good thing, after all there's been talk on these forums before about making skills more involved and this might be something they could work on that would lead to the development of skill based tech (how many times has the skill HEAL been asked to actually work how it should?).

It's an idea and your obsessive compulsion to shoot this down (or so it seems) is laughable. Sure it can require minimum investment to get the bonuses, then perhaps make it +1 or 2 to the penalties since its a free feat.

You want development of more content? There's a point where they can keep trying to give us content, but like the Dreaming Dark has shown, I think they need a break. These quests seem like poor comparisons to VoN 2, and if they're currently working on more epic content then this could be a nice tech to experiment with. Why are you so incessant on telling everyone to say no to this anyway?

[sephiroth1084]

-Why are you so incessant on telling everyone to say no to this anyway?

Because it is a waste of time.

Because I already showed how this does nothing to make the Tumble skill more valuable (to me, the way a skill's value is measured is by seeing how many ranks are worth investing, and this does nothing to improve that).

Because I can't see any way for this to work. In order for this to not completely obsolete CE, the penalty on attack rolls would have to be high enough that it were almost crippling, and at that point, who would use it?

Is it worth coding a feat for those rare instances when the rogue or wizard has to stop attacking and hope the rest of the group can save them from dying? Also, there then has to be enough starting AC for the feat to matter anyway--a bit of a stretch for most builds that aren't already trying to get CE. Pre-GH, even defensive stance as it currently functions is probably worthwhile as long as you have over a 20 AC. Then by the time you hit the Vale, if you don't have over a 40 AC, even a +5 probably won't help. That's why people carry around shields: for those Oh ****! moments when they need to abandon their primary role and just try to not die. How often do you see anyone doing that?

Finally, even if the penalty were crippling, the mere ability to adjust your bonus and penalty would make it better than CE if the bonus ever rose above +5, and the poitn would even be debatable at a +4 bonus for a -4 penalty.


The fact is, this change does not make taking ranks in Tumble any more attractive, which seemed to be your original intent when suggesting this in the first place. On top of that, it would require a lot of testing to figure out what the right balance between the bonus and penalty would be to A) be useful and B) not make CE pointless, and even then, it would hardly ever come up, as, again, how often do you spend shield-blocking on your rogue, ranger, barbarian, wizard, cleric, sorcerer, TWF fighter, DPS paladin, THF, monk or bard? How many of them would actually get meaningful AC with even a +10? I know that +9 from bark and Inspire Heroics usually makes no difference on my non-AC characters.

Should we get incentives added to make more skills useful? Sure! But there are other, and better ways to go about it:
-Add more water with currents for optionals or solitary missions (ala the swim for the Horn in The Crucible)
-Add more Listen cues that actually have an impact on a quest, or more monsters with very high hide skills, but mediocre move silently
-Remove the longer animation for Bluff
-Allow Heal to be used for additional effects (remove disease, poison, paralysis, or a small heal over time with high enough checks)
-Make the amount of damage reduced from falling by Tumble greater.
-Give a much higher bonus to AC when tumbling, or just plain make it harder for monsters to register an attack roll on tumbling targets.
-Include more fights in difficult terrain (knee-deep water), making tumbling a better way to get to enemies. Include a low ceiling to make hopping less useful.

[Maegin]

I'd rather have power attack on.